What happens when the young ex-Muslim generation grows up and leaves home?

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What happens when the young ex-Muslim generation grows up and leaves home?
OP - January 24, 2013, 03:39 AM

Few opinions I wanted to get once again . I also like to ramble sorry.

Personal question if you are a young ex-Muslim living with parents still ಠ_ಠ
So a majority of ex-Muslims from what I've seen are quite young and are still under the care of their parents or to some degree and have not quite gotten their Independence yet. So Where do you (if you consider yourself in this category) see yourself in the future? Do you see yourself marrying outside of your former religion (or more open to it), naming your children, your lifestyle, dress, will your future family live a Muslim lifestyle or a more modern one? OR are you willing to put up the guise and pass on the faith to keep the fam happy. Are their some aspects of the culture you still wish to keep and pass on.

>Will young Muslims carry on the ideal practices and beliefs of Islam their parents want
Do you think that closet ex-Muslims are a factor that is ignored with the claim that Islam is the fastest growing religion? Or do you think it's not that big of a dent to gain attention? Do you think Islam is struggling to keep the interest of the young, and the effects are not going to be seen till the future when we see if it's going to continued being passed on? I've been seeing more and more Christian sites talk about this issue of the younger generation leaving, and how to make the faith more appealing, but this seems to be something Islam doesn't want to discuss or acknowledge. I especially find it interesting with both paranoid Europeans and extreme Islamists claim Muslims will take over Britain and France by having many children, BUT I'm thinking will this new generation be the type of 'true' Muslims their parents expect them to be growing up in a liberal country, or will they more likely to just blend in indulging in everything their parents told them NOT to do or get involved in and just seen as 'regular' Europeans that you wouldn't tell at first glance what their religion is, nor would that not be a big factor in how they live.

Questions Questions Questions I like listening to you guys talk and give opinions. Not sure if this has been discussed already.
The basic question is the future of the growth of Islam in the hands of the younger generation, also a glimpse into what Islam will evolve into.
Liberal? More Hardline? Or quietly diminishing as people leaving are still counted as Muslim and being ignored until it's too late?

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Reply #1 - January 24, 2013, 05:23 AM

My dream is to live a secular life with a secular partner. At the same time, I know can't hide my kids from my parents, so..I guess I'll have to tell my parents I've turned into a modern Muslim, and hopefully my non-Muslim partner can lie and say he is one as well. Got it all figured out

With naming children, lifestyle and so on...It's not like it's polar opposites, eg. Muslims eat hummus, non Muslims eat fries. My roots are still Arab and I LOVE so many things about Arab culture, music, clothes, names, food.
It's my identity but it's also a burden because"Arab" is such a dirty word these days; unless you have a sparkling personality to fight the stereotypes....And I'm so weary and defensive when people ask me things (eg. My former colleague asked me if I knew anything about some stoning victim, I felt like all they saw in me was that oppressive culture, rather than me as a human...sucks balls <_<).

I'd like my children to know where their mum is from, but not be defensive or weary like I am. I'd like them to know Arabic, like the music, have some cultural clothes in their closets, and most of all, be proud. I have trouble keeping my head up because of all the stereotypes, and I'm so angry that I grew up this way. A combination of media hate and Islam and a lack of reform on our part. But Arabs don't really have a positive image in general, it's not like we're on mainstream TV, unless it's the bad, ugly, raging Muslim/Arab with the desert gear. This is more of a rant mixed with an answer, but I wish the Arab world figures it out and kicks the extremism, so the shame that I feel doesn't have any truth to it.

There is some hope..but I dunno if it's just my imagination that the West is somehow keeping the extremists afloat. Either way, I believe the change has to come from within somehow. Our culture is too different to be "Westernised" but can be amazing if it was modernised in its own way, rather than half arsed Americanised colony.
I think I'll always be hostile to Christian culture unless one day Islamic culture wont be as demonised or they both are equally demonised - and I'm talking stereotypes on Christians on every show including ones like Nip/Tuck (yeah they had the evil suicide bomber with the wailing bg music, who woulda thought such a random show would weigh in on the stereotyping of Arabs huh?)

I kinda have an issue with Western Muslims just adapting and trying to hide their roots. Unfortunately we aren't given an alternative, because our roots are too much intertwined with Islam, and on the other hand, we are faced with a Christianised secular culture, with Christian holidays and all the good stuff. It's kind of laughable to think of a secularised Eid, especially me being Shia (I realise I still referred to myself as Shia, just shows how much it is a part of me, culturally. I wont edit it, even though I mean former Shia), our version of Islam is designed to be rebellious, so it's a hard vision to imagine.

That's my thought, even though it's a semi rant.

Where do you see it going, Sakura?
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What happens when the young ex-Muslim generation grows up and leaves home?
Reply #2 - January 24, 2013, 05:50 AM

Generally the idea would be to do whatever the fuck you wanted to do anyway, except you wouldn't be operating under the shackles of an over thousand year old illogical dogma.

are you willing to put up the guise and pass on the faith to keep the fam happy.

Fuck to the no.

Are their some aspects of the culture you still wish to keep and pass on.

Washing my ass with water after a dump feel very nice and clean, so I think I'll teach that to whoever might want to listen.

>Will young Muslims carry on the ideal practices and beliefs of Islam their parents want

Who knows what the fuck young Muslims will do when it comes to the religion and the conservatism of their views thereof. I suspect that most will lie on a spectrum, ranging from a few openly or closetly apostatizing, most probably following the religion but more liberally than their parents, to a few following an even more conservative and hardline approach to the religion than their parents. On the whole I'm generally hopeful about the trend, as I am with religiosity as a whole throughout the world.

Personally, I feel that barring some sort of global economic collapse that brings the world into a new dark ages, that all religions will find themselves more and more often on the back foot, in a world in which information is more freely disseminated, and bad ideas are marginalized at the expense of better ones. Then again, I'm pretty young and stupid.

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Reply #3 - January 24, 2013, 12:24 PM

What is this term "arab"? Just because an American, A South African, An Australian and me speak allegedly the same language as a Glaswegian, does not mean we are all "English".

Do people need to make their own identities dependent on where their parents are from and where they were brought up?

I am a Londoner with a Welsh mum and a Dorset dad. Mongrel, as most of us are.

Make our own identities instead of being forced to wear one?

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Reply #4 - January 24, 2013, 01:13 PM

Saying Arab just means I'm mid eastern, or I could say "Iraqi" when they're curious about my country rather than ethnicity.

It's like introducing myself as "Aussie", but then the question that follows is where were you born? People have a white image of Australia, so that question always follows.
Quote
Do people need to make their own identities dependent on where their parents are from and where they were brought up?

You might feel totally left out when you visit your parents countries (like how I feel in Iraq), but depending on how much of that culture was rubbed on to you by your parents, it makes up a part of you. What do you crave and cook most days? What language do you speak? What music do you have on your ipod?

I personally see myself as Aussie, but I have so much "Arabness" which I was raised with. Am I a mongrel too?

*edit* now that I think about it, when I was younger, I only saw myself as Aussie. It wasn't until my teen years and having people ask me where I'm actually from that made me consider myself to be anything else.
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Reply #5 - January 24, 2013, 09:20 PM

Where do you (if you consider yourself in this category) see yourself in the future?

I will hopefully have my own place, living with a partner/wife(if she wants to get married) and children. Stable job and enjoying lifes pleasures.

Do you see yourself marrying outside of your former religion (or more open to it), naming your children, your lifestyle, dress, will your future family live a Muslim lifestyle or a more modern one?

I have always been open to the aspect of marrying a non-muslim. I've always held to the principle even when I was Muslim that if I happened to be in a relationship with a woman who was not Muslim, I would not have her convert for me or at all. She would not be the person I wanted to be with anymore if she did convert because she would have to change far too much. However since I am no longer a believer, getting married to a Traditional Muslim seems unlikely if she would want me to become religious again; pretend or otherwise. When I was a believer, I felt that Muslim women were a handful I just don't know what direction the relationship would go with a conservative muslim woman. The experiences I have had with Muslim women have not been too pleasant, so in a relationship it would be hard to cope. I would prefer an ex-muslim woman with western secular values mixed with positive traditional values. We would have a lot more in common and a somewhat mutual understanding. Not holding my breath but I can hope. At the end of the day it will depend on the woman. If she is accepting and we can come to a mutual compromise and understanding then why not.

I hate lying the guilt is a burden for me, so I can not see myself just fake bieng muslim to family, for a long period of time, so the truth will eventually come out, I think it is better done earlier than to let it drag on.

In naming my future children, I would probably just name them something I like; whether it sounds foriegn or not. I would not name them on the basis of religion or to make them fit in with a community. A person should not be judged by ones name alone. I have no problem naming my children with arabic/persian names, but I would not name them abdul- ... for obvious reasons and mohammed is far to used and has connatations with it. If I like the name then I'll use it.

My lifestyle will not change much, I will carry on studying Islam from a secular point of view. I still hold the positive desi values which I have managed to mix with the secular western values I learnt. I can't see that changing as i've just taken the positives of different cultures and thrown away the negative baggage. I still enjoy traditional punjabi folk music and Sufi kalams. I will still eat curry but I am more open to other cuisines which would otherwise be forbidden. This also goes with activities which are frowned upon in Islamic theology are open to explore. Thinking back there is not actually a lot of Islam mixed in south asian culture. But that is changing in pakistan and with pakistani muslims abroad, as more people are becoming more hardline, they are beginning to frown upon ancient 'Hindu' influences/culture. A lot of the traditional dresses are bieng replaced by arab attire. Womens dresses (which are beautiful) are being replaced with colourless niqabs, Folk music and films are becoming less common etc. A lot of the Islam that gets peddled as a culture is mostly just arab culture. Which to non-arab muslims is seen as superior when it shouldn't be thought of as that.

In term of upbringing of future children. I will teach them my own heritage. A lot of my pakistani culture has very little to do with Islam. I would like to teach them Urdu, punjabi. Tell them about my family history which has nothing to do with Islam. Highlight the postive aspect of desi culture aswell postive Islamic values. When it comes to Islam, I will make sure they understand Islam and Arabic, atleast as well as I do and let them make their own decision about it. If my Muslim family is still involved with me at this point, I will let my kids learn from them to see what they make of it. They will be also taught secular values.

Will young Muslims carry on the ideal practices and beliefs of Islam their parents want

I terms of young Muslims, as western society begins to frown upon and points out the absurdities of religion, Muslim will have to chop and change their religion to suit the new climate. Progressive Islam is welcome if it takes atleast some of the unsavoury bits out. What I have noticed either Muslims are becoming alot more conservative or out right non practising, the adults in my own community are making sure kids are instilled the Islamic education early and the indoctrination is getting more widespread. The kids are bieng taught to get less involved with other communities lest they be led astray. Don't get me wrong they are not teaching hate but are teaching suspicion and making it taboo to act, dress like the 'infidels'. They mock kids who want trendy hairstyles etc. I think this is in response to the older generation who seem to be less involved in Islam and so that the kids don't apostate. Christians tend to make christianity more appealing through songs and stuff. You can't do that with Islam because there are far to many rituals. It is very boring so what is happening like I mentioned above the kids are bieng indoctrinated earlier. They are romantacising arab culture as superior and misrepresenting western values as bieng about drugs and taboo sexual acts. They are using fear mongering of hell and damnation to scare kids in to submission. Its working somewhat in the UK. It does not help that Muftis are qouting hadiths of the end times saying this stuff is meant to happen pulling in more gullible followers.

This is a bit long sorry
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Reply #6 - January 26, 2013, 02:25 AM

Ohh I like what you guys have to see ^_^. YAY LONG POST
Jila:
Yeah i know what you mean about fear mongering in the West towards Arabs. Arabs and Islam seem to be interchangeable although I know that's not the case because there are Arabs that are not Muslim and have a Christian background. But Islamic culture and Arabic culture seem so inter-twined. It's just that Arabic culture isn't the problem, it's the religious baggage it's carrying and I was wondering if in your opinion the religious baggage will have too much pressure on you and you rather just not bring it up. Look I'm Arabic but don't assume that I'm Muslim or act a particular way.
My opinions on my questions, which I don't think will hold much water because I'm not involved in the Muslim culture (I don't even know any Muslims in person just online) I'm in an American place where the only other non-Christian religion I see hanging around are Jews. I've seen a few hijabis here and there but that's it.

Based on my research, on both ex-Muslim websites and pro-Islamic websites and forums, there are always stories about younger Muslims butting heads with their elders on silly Islamic restrictions, and it's straining their beliefs. A few examples are
- Why can't I listen to music?
- Why can't I dress this way?
- Why can't I have non-Muslim friends?
- I love this non-Muslim person very much what do I do?
- Why can't I be gay and Muslim?
- Why does Allah put my friends in hell when they are good people?
- Evolution...

Interestingly I've been hanging around on r/Islam on reddit and half of the threads there, are Muslims giving conflicting advice and bickering amongst each other about what is Islamic and what is not. And I've seen 2 threads on r/exMuslim from Muslims who go to ex-Muslims for advice because they can't stand the people on r/Islam not being more open-minded. So from what I've seeing there have been so many different interpretations of Islam and most of it is between the young and the old. And I've seen some people go mega religious, but I've been seeing a trend with ex-Muslims where most either, never bought into it since they were younger. OR they got so ass deep in Islam during their pre-teen-teenage years and became super conservative, that at some point after debating atheists, or having their beliefs questioned and feeling uncomfortable about certain things, like a lot of us say, the whole house of cards just falls over. So I think that the Islamic revival is going to die down at some point pretty hard like a fashion trend. And people will keep their Arabic heritage, but the religious aspects would not dictate how they breath, kind of like what you're saying.

More Muslims are being more conservative, but I feel this is a knee-jerk reaction against the Western influences. 9/11 I feel is SOLELY to blame for this. Americans became super paranoid and angry, and the reaction by America amplified terrorism. I just know if we did not get involved in Iraq things would not have been this bad. And so everyone is picking a side West vs. East to have a sense of belonging and us vs them mentality. Kind of like a sports team, you can't be neutral you have to pick a side and stick with it.

e-raja
Now e-raja your interesting because Pakistan is quite interesting. Like someone put it once, Pakistan is India in denial (sorry if that sounds offensive) But when I first looked at the Pakistani culture and things like clothes, food, and music I'm thinking.. Indian??? Like I honestly was shocked when I learnt that Pakistanis were Muslim, since everything was heavily Indian influenced. It's quite different from Arabic culture, apart from the religion.

We were discussing on another thread somewhere how Islam is Arabic centric and I think I pointed this out and someone snapped at me that i suggested Islam takes away and destroys the ancient cultures of the country it infiltrates. Hindus have a very colorful culture and I think it's sad that Arabic centric Islam has to replace that, like you said colorful clothes being replaces with drab niqabs, and music is being frowned upon.

But like I said I've been observing that quite a few ex-Muslims were at one point very very religious and defended Islam tooth and nail and then at some point, after some self-reflection and a few doubts the faith falls. And I think Islam as a whole is going to be experiencing that. I've been noticing that young Muslims are very dissatisfied with the restrictions Islam places on them. They look around at Christians (if they live in a Christian country) that they are more or less free to live whatever lifestyle they want, and so long as they say they believe in their religion(Jesus) then whatever. But in Islam you can't just say you believe and be done with it, you have to do this that, and you cannot do a WHOLE long list of things. And fuck you if you're a woman, that list of 'do nots' just got multiplied by 100times. Right down to what you can say is being policed. Don't say 'Merry Christmas' don't say 'RIP' to non Muslims (I kid you not a Muslim wrote RIP to a famous non-Muslim singer on their facebook wall and got angry responses that they shouldn't be blessing kafirs as they are burning in hell as is Allah's command'. And young Muslims are being fed up, which leaves to either leave the religion entirely or call themselves Muslims while ignoring most of the ridiculous rules. Not all Muslims are super conservative, BUT I guarantee you they have butted heads with more conservative Muslims before about not practicing Islam properly, as in the example I gave.

Why am I asking these questions well. To the super conservative Islamist who say, "YAY ISLAM WILL TAKE OVER BRITAIN IN NUMBERS" I'm like you guys don't even know how many people leave Islam yearly fuck you. Even with the indoctrination of kids, who knows what's really going on in their minds. No child is going to come out outright and tell their parents they think Islam is stupid. And to people like the EDL or people who say "OH NOESS MUSLIMS WILL TAKE OVER BRITAIN AND WE'LL HAVE SHARIA LAW SOON AND EVERYONE WILL BE WEARING HIJAB AND BURQAS" I say no fuck you, not all Muslims are these hardline assholes, they are just regular people who want to live their life, especially the young from what I've seen are fed up of restrictions So I think the hype over Islam is fake and I'm wondering if anyone shares my opinion. Based on being on the inside of the culture. both Arabic and Islamic.

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Reply #7 - January 27, 2013, 02:34 AM

I'm not really offended by the statement that pakistan is india in denial. Pakistan shares more than 80% of its customs and culture with india so I'm not surprised you thought that. The earliest brand of Islam that was introduced in the subcontinent was sufi Islam, they are not that hardline and therefore didn't go about force a strict version, so when people converted they kept a lot of their old customs. Even during the time of the Mughals the forced conversions did not stop people from carrying on practises which didn't contradict the quran. The mughals had recieved fierce opposition so they had to change their approach therefore there was no need to change people in to strict followers of a certain brand of Islam.

We should note that pakistan and india have only seperated less than a century, it will still take years for pakistani's to get rid of the hindu influences. However this is already starting. This is because the hindu majority is no longer in charge and can not enforce laws that are hinduism influenced. Sharia implies that over the years pakistan is trying to become more a lot more islamic and policies that may be introduced make it difficult to stick to old cultural practises.

Like you stated Islam and christianity to an extent require absolute change in lifestyle because they are so thorough basically destroying other cultures. It is dissappointing to see 1000s of years of culture which is not all bad bieng destroyed but because it conflicts with the ideals of a 'perfect' society of the 'perfect' man. Take in to account that polythiesm is despised in Islam and a lot of the culture is tied with hinduism, so no surprise there is becoming more distancing even though the practises are harmless.

During my time as a Muslim, my friends and I would always avoid the most conservative muslims, we didn't like there self rightous attitudes. Plus they were as boring as watching paint dry. Islam when applied properly is a very very boring religion, celebrations are looked down upon, even on eid, we are meant to be worrying every minute about Gods wrath, crying for forgiveness, fear the torment of hell, it really does breed depression. When you see other religions enjoy life it does make you feel a left out and ask why not us, alot of muslim must feel this way but hide it well. I have yet to meet a conservative muslim who was cheerful, every one I've met has been pessimistic, uptight and somewhat aggresive. thats why I can not see myself marrying a conservative Muslim woman.

Will Muslims take over Britain or Europe? I highly doubt it, there maybe an outlying possibility but not probable. Only way I see Muslims out numbering others is through birthrates. When someone starts boasting about numbers converting just bring up birthrates.
I do think there are not actually that many true believing muslims. This may offend the more moderate followers but the true followers of the faith are the conservative fundamentalists which number about 10% of the population of muslims. Islam in britain will go through what christianity has been through it will take time however because the muslims have only been in exposed to secular society for 3 generations. Islam was succesful in the middle ages because information was not readily available, this has been the big conflict which has been stylised as Islam vs west. Its more like Islam vs lack of ignorance. Religions have a very big problem in the information age.
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Reply #8 - January 27, 2013, 07:18 AM

Hmm insightful response.

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Reply #9 - January 27, 2013, 10:57 AM

Why this assumption that the West is xian?

During the Crusades, the Crusaders attacked Constantinople - then the head of the Orthodox Church!

The reality is that the vast majority of people, if they define themselves as xian at all, do so out of habit.

Comprehensive education for over a century now has had huge effects. Even in America, not that many attend church regularly.

We just had the Olympics in London - the True Gods are not xian gods!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
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