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 Topic: Islam's position on photography and images

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  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     OP - October 05, 2014, 09:27 PM
    Could someone more knowledgeable than me clarify for me what Islam's position on photography and images is?

    From what I understand, it is forbidden because when you look at a picture, you are basically worshipping an idol. The part that confuses me, though, is that I think _everyone_ knows this but don't seem to give a rat's ass.

    Have I got that right and people are just hypocrites, or am I missing something?

    Cheers
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #1 - October 05, 2014, 09:38 PM
    There are a lot of hadith that are pretty down on images. Here's just a couple:

    Quote
    Narrated Aisha:
    (the wife of the Prophet) I bought a cushion having on it pictures (of animals). When Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) saw it, he stood at the door and did not enter. I noticed the sign of disapproval on his face and said, "O Allah's Messenger (ﷺ)! I repent to Allah and His Apostle. What sin have I committed?' Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said. "What is this cushion?" I said, "I have bought it for you so that you may sit on it and recline on it." Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) said, "The makers of these pictures will be punished on the Day of Resurrection, and it will be said to them, 'Give life to what you have created (i.e., these pictures).' " The Prophet (ﷺ) added, "The Angels of (Mercy) do not enter a house in which there are pictures (of animals).

    http://sunnah.com/bukhari/67/116
    Quote
    Abu Zur'a reported:
    I visited the house of Marwan in the company of Abu Huraira and he found pictures there. whereupon he said: I heard Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) as saying: Allah, the Glorious and Exalted, said: Who is a more wrongdoer than one who tries to create creation like Mine creation. Let him create an atom or a grain of wheat or that of barley. This hadith has been transmitted on the authority of Abu Zur'a and he said: Abu Huraira went to the house of Sa'ld or Marwan which they had built in Medina and he (Abu Huraira) saw a painter who had been painting pictures in his house, whereupon he told that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) had said like this, but he made no mention of the words:" Let him create the grain of barley."

    http://sunnah.com/muslim/37/155

    And then, of course, there a lot of different versions saying something along the lines of an angel will not enter a house with a dog or a picture inside.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #2 - October 05, 2014, 09:44 PM
    Yeah, that's what I thought. And I think it's pretty common knowledge (based on conjecture), and yet no one seems to care?

    Is having pictures just too cool?
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #3 - October 05, 2014, 09:44 PM
    Of course it is!
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #4 - October 05, 2014, 09:48 PM
    Well, yes, pictures are cool - especially of boobs at the like.  whistling2

    But, is this just one of those things that people ignore about Islam because it is too inconvenient? I have never heard another justification or apology for it.

    Even mullahs on TV say having images is bad - which is a little hypocritical..
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #5 - October 05, 2014, 09:53 PM
    I have known a few rare families who take this seriously and who don't like having paintings around, but I'd reckon it's a bit too much to ask that a modern family wouldn't have a single image of their children or any photo ID or anything kicking around the house. I don't know how they dismiss this, but I don't blame them for doing it!
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #6 - October 05, 2014, 09:57 PM
    A humble suggestion, in the shape of a 6-step plan:

    1. Start a cargo cult where youtube clips of various mullahs are worshipped as manifestations of the divine.
    2. Record acts of worship on video, upload to youtube
    3. Show these mullahs these videos on youtube, making sure to record their reactions
    4. Upload these videos to youtube
    5. ? ? ? ?
    6. MULLAHCEPTION!

    At which point, you walk away, whistling..
    Before it gets too late, you will find escape.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #7 - October 05, 2014, 10:01 PM
    Quote from: lua on October 05, 2014, 09:53 PM
    I have known a few rare families who take this seriously and who don't like having paintings around, but I'd reckon it's a bit too much to ask that a modern family wouldn't have a single image of their children or any photo ID or anything kicking around the house. I don't know how they dismiss this, but I don't blame them for doing it!


    I agree, and it probably is a bit too much to ask. It's just that with most other things that people don't follow, they usually create excuses or "logical" reasons or claim Islam doesn't actually say that. With this, it just seems like people shrug and go meh.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #8 - October 05, 2014, 10:10 PM
    Quote from: toor on October 05, 2014, 09:57 PM
    A humble suggestion, in the shape of a 6-step plan:

    1. Start a cargo cult where youtube clips of various mullahs are worshipped as manifestations of the divine.
    2. Record acts of worship on video, upload to youtube
    3. Show these mullahs these videos on youtube, making sure to record their reactions
    4. Upload these videos to youtube
    5. ? ? ? ?
    6. MULLAHCEPTION!

    At which point, you walk away, whistling..


    That is the best thing I have seen all day.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #9 - October 05, 2014, 10:24 PM
    Toor's rare comments often are.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #10 - October 06, 2014, 09:20 AM
    I am not sure it is rare!  I know of an art class for children where parents have withdrawn their children because they are taught to draw animals and faces.

    Which raises a further question.

    Would koran onlyists follow these rules?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #11 - October 06, 2014, 09:27 AM


    It seems it is Sunni habit!  Seriously I would argue it is a xian import, Sunni being the xian sect, Shia the Zoroastrian sect.!

    Quote
    Iconoclasm[Note 1] is the deliberate destruction of religious icons and other symbols or monuments of one's own culture, usually for religious or political motives. It is a frequent component of major political or religious changes. The term does not generally encompass the specific destruction of images of a ruler after his death or overthrow (damnatio memoriae).

    People who engage in or support iconoclasm are called iconoclasts, a term that has come to be applied figuratively to any individual who challenges "cherished beliefs or venerated institutions on the grounds that they are erroneous or pernicious".[1] Conversely, one who reveres or venerates religious images is called (by iconoclasts) an iconolater; in a Byzantine context, such a person is called an iconodule or iconophile.

    Iconoclasm may be carried out by people of a different religion, but is often the result of sectarian disputes between factions of the same religion. In Christianity, iconoclasm has generally been motivated by people who adopt a literal interpretation of the Ten Commandments, which forbid the making and worshipping of "graven images or any likeness of anything".[2] The degree of iconoclasm among Christian sects greatly varies. Islam, in general, tends to be more iconoclastic than Christianity, with Sunni Islam being more iconoclastic than Shia Islam.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #12 - October 06, 2014, 09:47 AM
    Quote from: moi on October 06, 2014, 09:27 AM

    It seems it is Sunni habit!  Seriously I would argue it is a xian import, Sunni being the xian sect, Shia the Zoroastrian sect.!

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iconoclasm


    One of the best examples of iconoclasm is in England by Henry 8th. This when he had a disagreement with the Catholic church due to marriage and heir issues. He split from the Catholic church forming the CoE (Anglicans) using the rising protestant movement in Germany (Martin Luther) as a support for his actions. With this came the destruction of the monasteries, taking their lands and whitewashing the paintings in the churches as they were seen as icons.

    Supported by the aforementioned:

    "graven images or any likeness of anything"

    being taken literally.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #13 - October 06, 2014, 10:52 AM
    Hagia Sophia is another example which was subject to both internal, Christian, and external, Muslim, iconoclast
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #14 - October 06, 2014, 11:54 AM
    Quote from: Lassan on October 05, 2014, 10:01 PM
    I agree, and it probably is a bit too much to ask. It's just that with most other things that people don't follow, they usually create excuses or "logical" reasons or claim Islam doesn't actually say that. With this, it just seems like people shrug and go meh.


    Not really, the subject is quite debatable among the scholars from four madhabs who don't think taking photos is haram because back then they are no such thing like Camera and photos but the works of artisans(which I think its what he is against which explains why some muslims don't put artworks in their house). The only muslims that takes it seriously are the literalist like salafists and wahhabis of course which is no surprise.

    IMO if cameras existed back in 7th century, Mohammmed would have defintely take advantage of the use.
    "I'm standing here like an asshole holding my Charles Dickens"

    "No theory,No ready made system,no book that has ever been written to save the world. i cleave to no system.."-Bakunin
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #15 - October 06, 2014, 12:45 PM
    Quote from: Lassan on October 05, 2014, 09:48 PM
    Well, yes, pictures are cool - especially of boobs at the like.  whistling2


     yes
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #16 - October 06, 2014, 12:46 PM
    Quote from: toor on October 05, 2014, 09:57 PM
    A humble suggestion, in the shape of a 6-step plan:

    1. Start a cargo cult where youtube clips of various mullahs are worshipped as manifestations of the divine.
    2. Record acts of worship on video, upload to youtube
    3. Show these mullahs these videos on youtube, making sure to record their reactions
    4. Upload these videos to youtube
    5. ? ? ? ?
    6. MULLAHCEPTION!

    At which point, you walk away, whistling..

     Cheesy
    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #17 - October 07, 2014, 02:54 PM
    This is a funny one, growing up in the early 90's all the mullahs and sheikhs I came across said Tv is Haram. But since the creation of islamic satellites channels and youtube now many of these same mullahs/sheikhs are now on screens with their image being shown to everyone.

    Of course one can perform u-turns when they want to fill their pockets.  Afro
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #18 - October 07, 2014, 04:44 PM
    Anyone able to show examples of the same person saying one thing then another?
    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #19 - October 07, 2014, 07:21 PM
    Quote from: Lassan on October 05, 2014, 09:48 PM
    Well, yes, pictures are cool - especially of boobs at the like.  whistling2

    But, is this just one of those things that people ignore about Islam because it is too inconvenient? I have never heard another justification or apology for it.

    Even mullahs on TV say having images is bad - which is a little hypocritical..


    Its more than just "a little" hypocritical.

    Say what you like about the Saudi cleric, but at least he stuck with his guns about the world being flat, until another Saudi went into space, anyway.  Cheesy
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #20 - October 07, 2014, 07:23 PM
    Quote from: Lassan on October 05, 2014, 10:01 PM
    With this, it just seems like people shrug and go meh.


    If only they could just do that with the whole damn thing.
    Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #21 - October 07, 2014, 07:55 PM
    The salafists in egypt condemned elections and voting for years until opportunity presented itself, and photography issue is one of those thing in which they could use to spread their barbarism and bigotry,even if they rejected it in the beginning.
  • Islam's position on photography and images
     Reply #22 - October 07, 2014, 08:16 PM
    To bad that salafists didn't continue to avoid tv, maybe fewer people would be poisoned.
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