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 Topic: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!

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  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     OP - May 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
    007.080
    YUSUFALI: We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

    PICKTHAL: And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?

    SHAKIR: And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

    Seems Lut & Allah were ignorant of homosexual creatures & homosexuality in animals!  dance

    Even if we confine ourselves to humans, since so many animals display homosexuality, no human was homo before Lut's time?  Huh?




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #1 - May 27, 2009, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on May 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
    Even if we confine ourselves to humans, since so many animals display homosexuality, no human was homo before Lut's time?  Huh?

    The reality is that both the Greeks and Romans have a long history of institutionalized homosexuality. And many pagan and archaic religions explicitly recognized homosexuality, e.g. see shamanism or the Two-Spirit Native American tradition. I find it really hard to believe that homosexuality is a behavior that hasn't always been there in humanity.
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #2 - May 27, 2009, 10:40 PM
    Quote from: ned on May 27, 2009, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on May 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
    Even if we confine ourselves to humans, since so many animals display homosexuality, no human was homo before Lut's time?  Huh?

    The reality is that both the Greeks and Romans have a long history of institutionalized homosexuality. And many pagan and archaic religions explicitly recognized homosexuality, e.g. see shamanism or the Two-Spirit Native American tradition. I find it really hard to believe that homosexuality is a behavior that hasn't always been there in humanity.


    In fact it is mainly the God of the Abrahamic religions that seems to hate Homosexuals. (Maybe he's repressing something Wink )
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #3 - May 27, 2009, 11:13 PM
    He was jealous. 

    He lived for billions of years up in the sky, alone, with no one who loved him.  In the end he invented humans to love him, he even threatened to repeatedly burn their faces in fire if they didnt.  Grumpy old bastard.
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  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #4 - May 28, 2009, 04:36 PM
    This timeline of LGBT history gives some pre Torah instances of homosexuality, since the Lut story, like many other Islamic stories is taken from the Torah & Judaism, pre Judaism instances of homosexuality show that even before Lut's time, there were homosexuals:

    12,000 BCE
    Near the end of the Upper Paleolithic Era, human beings have left artifacts and artwork suggesting an appreciation of homoeroticism.

    5,000 BCE
    Possible examples of homoeroticism in European Mesolithic art include a rock engraving found in Addaura, Sicily, in which men and women dance around two cavorting sexually aroused male figures

    This is an instance of homosexuality from 2400B.C., 4400 years ago, at least a millennia before Judaism's time:


    Quote
    Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum were ancient Egyptian royal servants. They shared the title of Overseer of the Manicurists in the Palace of King Niuserre during the Fifth Dynasty of Egyptian pharaohs, circa 2400 B.C., and are listed as "royal confidants" in their joint tomb. They are speculated to be the first recorded same-sex couple in history.

    The tomb of Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum was discovered by Egyptologist Ahmed Moussa in the necropolis at Saqqara, Egypt in 1964, during the excavation of the causeway for the pyramid of King Unas. It is the only tomb in the necropolis where men are displayed embracing and holding hands. In addition, the men's chosen names form a linguistic reference to their closeness:

    Niankhkhnum means "joined to life" and Khnumhotep means "joined to 'the blessed state of the dead'" and together the names can be translated as "joined in life and joined in death"

    In a banquet scene, Niankhkhnum and Khnumhotep are entertained by dancers, clappers, musicians and singers; in another, they oversee their funeral preparations. In the most striking portrayal, the two embrace, noses touching, in the most intimate pose allowed by canonical Egyptian art, surrounded by what would appear to be their heirs.


    Seems Muhammad &\or Allah was unaware of all this when they claimed that no creature was homosexual before!  banana dance

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #5 - May 28, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Well done Rashna - are you saying there are instances in the old testament of homosexuality?  If so then the Quran is in contradiction with its predecessor the old testament.  If so, then youve discovered a contradiction not in the Quran, but in Islam!
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  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #6 - May 28, 2009, 05:19 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 28, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Well done Rashna - are you saying there are instances in the old testament of homosexuality?  If so then the Quran is in contradiction with its predecessor the old testament.  If so, then youve discovered a contradiction not in the Quran, but in Islam!


    But Lot is an OT prophet - in fact according to the Qur'an he is Abraham's nephew (or is it cousin?) so I guess you need to find solid evidence of homosexuality that predates the OT and or Abraham (1500BC? - which also pre-dates Ancient Greece.)
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #7 - May 28, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 28, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Well done Rashna - are you saying there are instances in the old testament of homosexuality?  If so then the Quran is in contradiction with its predecessor the old testament.  If so, then youve discovered a contradiction not in the Quran, but in Islam!


    No, I didn't say that, the instances of homosexuality in the OT are Lut's story & a statement in Leviticus which states that homosexuals are to be put to death.  Shooter

    Quote from: Hassan on May 28, 2009, 05:19 PM
    But Lot is an OT prophet - in fact according to the Qur'an he is Abraham's nephew (or is it cousin?) so I guess you need to find solid evidence of homosexuality that predates the OT and or Abraham (1500BC? - which also pre-dates Ancient Greece.)


    These Egyptian homosexuals that I posted about- Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum are 4400 years old, a millennia older than Abraham!  dance
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #8 - May 28, 2009, 05:27 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on May 28, 2009, 05:21 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 28, 2009, 04:48 PM
    Well done Rashna - are you saying there are instances in the old testament of homosexuality?  If so then the Quran is in contradiction with its predecessor the old testament.  If so, then youve discovered a contradiction not in the Quran, but in Islam!


    No, I didn't say that, the instances of homosexuality in the OT are Lut's story & a statement in Leviticus which states that homosexuals are to be put to death.  Shooter

    Quote from: Hassan on May 28, 2009, 05:19 PM
    But Lot is an OT prophet - in fact according to the Qur'an he is Abraham's nephew (or is it cousin?) so I guess you need to find solid evidence of homosexuality that predates the OT and or Abraham (1500BC? - which also pre-dates Ancient Greece.)


    These Egyptian homosexuals that I posted about- Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum are 4400 years old, a millennia older than Abraham!  dance


    Yes the Ancient Egyptian reference is a good one, Rashna  Afro
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #9 - May 28, 2009, 05:29 PM
    But how do we know Muslims accept the Egyptian story?  Think the best argument to use is nature.
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  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #10 - May 28, 2009, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 28, 2009, 05:29 PM
    But how do we know Muslims accept the Egyptian story?  Think the best argument to use is nature.


    Muslims refuse to accept the Egyptian story, its well documented in paintings, & their tomb is present-there's far more evidence of these two than there is evidence of Abraham!

    These guys are history like Tutenkhanum is history! Lut maybe nothing more than plain myth.

    The Pickthall translation says, "No creature..." others say "no one,"  can Hassan or any other person who knows Arabic say whether the Quran says creature or person?

    If it is creature, since animals are homosexual in our time, they would be homosexual pre Lut as well.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #11 - May 28, 2009, 05:46 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on May 28, 2009, 05:36 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on May 28, 2009, 05:29 PM
    But how do we know Muslims accept the Egyptian story?  Think the best argument to use is nature.


    Muslims refuse to accept the Egyptian story, its well documented in paintings, & their tomb is present-there's far more evidence of these two than there is evidence of Abraham!

    These guys are history like Tutenkhanum is history! Lut maybe nothing more than plain myth.

    The Pickthall translation says, "No creature..." others say "no one,"  can Hassan or any other person who knows Arabic say whether the Quran says creature or person?

    If it is creature, since animals are homosexual in our time, they would be homosexual pre Lut as well.




    The crucial word is Ahad it means one - so in the verse it would normally means no-one i.e. no-human.

    But then it says Al-Alameen = "The Worlds" and it is this word that could be understood to refer to more than just humans since it's occurance in places like al-fatiha was a topic of debate.

    i.e. What worlds? Isn't there just one world? Some mufassirs said it means the world of men, the world of jinn, the world of animals, etc...

    However I have to say that personally I would say that the verse seems to be talking about people and that to say it includes animals is a little bit of a stretch. But that's just my opinion.
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #12 - May 28, 2009, 06:03 PM
    Quote from: Hassan on May 28, 2009, 05:46 PM

    The crucial word is Ahad it means one - so in the verse it would normally means no-one i.e. no-human.

    But then it says Al-Alameen = "The Worlds" and it is this word that could be understood to refer to more than just humans since it's occurance in places like al-fatiha was a topic of debate.

    i.e. What worlds? Isn't there just one world? Some mufassirs said it means the world of men, the world of jinn, the world of animals, etc...

    However I have to say that personally I would say that the verse seems to be talking about people and that to say it includes animals is a little bit of a stretch. But that's just my opinion.


     thnkyu Hassan!

    I found this book which says that there is evidence of both homosexuality & male prostitutes in Mesopotemia from the 3rd millennia B.C., which is again millennia pre Abraham.

    Temples had male prostitutes, so did royal palaces. Later the Assyrians outlawed homosexuality.

    Coupled with the Egyptian evidence, homosexuality was definitely present in pre Abrahamic periods & there were homosexuals before Lut's people.

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #13 - May 28, 2009, 06:17 PM
    This is a site dedicated to the ancient Egyptian Khnumhotep and Niankhkhnum. hugs

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #14 - May 28, 2009, 06:52 PM
    I accept the evidence, but the problem is Muslims dont even accept modern day evidence, nevermind evidence from 3rd millennia B.C !
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  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #15 - May 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Lewdness or abomination or indecency. Three different words with different meanings.

    Hassan, what is the word that is used in the Arabic?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #16 - May 28, 2009, 08:01 PM
    Quote from: J4m3z on May 28, 2009, 07:19 PM
    Lewdness or abomination or indecency. Three different words with different meanings.

    Hassan, what is the word that is used in the Arabic?


    The word is Fahisha and it can mean all those things you quoted. (Words often have different shades of meaning depending on context.)

    It comes from a root that means to be excessive, immoderate, exorbitant, abominable, shameless, obscene etc...



  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #17 - May 28, 2009, 08:41 PM
    Well that is incredibly general. Can we reasonably conclude that what is ultimately being discussed here is just homosexuality? After all, it wasn't just homosexuality that the people of Lot were accused of being guilty of.
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #18 - May 28, 2009, 08:50 PM
    The next verse says:

    "Indeed you come to men in desire instead of women..."

  • Re: Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #19 - May 28, 2009, 09:21 PM
    Well, what about it? This sounds like a promising criticism of Islam that I have never heard of before. Has anyone else heard this criticism before?
    The unlived life is not worth examining.
  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #20 - November 11, 2014, 11:47 AM
    Quote from: Abu Ali on May 28, 2009, 08:50 PM
    The next verse says:

    "Indeed you come to men in desire instead of women..."

    (Clicky for piccy!)


    Was thinking about this and it seems to me that disregarding the other evidence mentioned above for the moment, that this is ambiguous as well. It doesn't give a timeline or time period in which men came to desire men and not women in, this could be within the week but also could be within centuries. This therefore points to ambiguity which makes the Qur'an not clear (mubeen), but it could also be used as an apologist argument for the point made, "it meant within centuries, not weeks".
  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #21 - November 13, 2014, 12:37 PM
    I'm not sure I understand what you're saying - nor what J4m3z said above.

    The verses say:

    "Do ye commit lewdness that no-one in the worlds has committed before you? "Indeed you come to men in desire instead of women..."
  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #22 - November 14, 2014, 03:10 AM
    Quote from: Rashna on May 27, 2009, 06:27 PM
    007.080
    YUSUFALI: We also (sent) Lut: He said to his people: "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you?

    PICKTHAL: And Lot! (Remember) when he said unto his folk: Will ye commit abomination such as no creature ever did before you?

    SHAKIR: And (We sent) Lut when he said to his people: What! do you commit an indecency which any one in the world has not done before you?

    Seems Lut & Allah were ignorant of homosexual creatures & homosexuality in animals!  dance

    Even if we confine ourselves to humans, since so many animals display homosexuality, no human was homo before Lut's time?  Huh?







    The Yusuf Ali translation that you quoted says 'no people in creation', so how can you use that translation for your argument about animals when it clearly refers to people in that translation ?

    Also if you say homosexuality existed before in people as your next argument, the translations you used in that verse use the words lewdness, abomination, indecency, nowhere is the word homosexuality used, so the verse could be referring to other things in addition to homosexuality, so even if you say homosexuality existed before, the 'abomination' could've been homosexuality + other things, I don't know how the scholars have interpreted it. But it seems your trying to find an argument against a verse with very weak logic and trying to interpret the verse to mean whatever you want e.g. how you completely missed that the yusuf ali translation specifically says 'people'.
  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #23 - November 14, 2014, 11:01 AM
    Actually the verse is referring to homosexuality as the next verse makes clear.
  • Allah's Prophet Lut! No Creature was Homosexual before his People!
     Reply #24 - November 14, 2014, 11:13 AM
    Thaman, although I dislike the argument that one needs to be fluent in Arabic from the era to understand the Quran, in all fairness you're going to have to ease off of considering one translation to be the authority. Try checking out a handful of translations every time you analyze a verse. There are differences, depending on the translator.

    I've known some translators to add or rephrase things if they've found the more accurate translation to be too incriminating. It's hard to find verses on the treatment of women in many English copies that I've seen that haven't been subject to this treatment, for example.

    If all else fails, try using an Arabic-English dictionary and comparing it to your Yusuf Ali translation.
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