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 Topic: Islamists&Sharia&Democracy

 (Read 2299 times)
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  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     OP - November 03, 2014, 01:26 PM

    One of the issues relating to democracy in much of the muslim world is the role Islamists play. A lot of Islamists, like the Muslim Brotherhood, seem to accept democratic elections, but not the civil liberties that alot of people associate with democracy. Though they use words like 'human rights' and 'civil liberties', they do it in a very disingenuous way. They complain about secularists who they say go against the will of the people, by supporting military coups, to save civil liberties, but nobody is pointing out that the Muslim brotherhood supported overthrowing the elected goverment in Iraq this summer because of lack of rights for Sunnis. Considering the fact that they would treat shi'ites,christians and especially bahais in an equally bad or worse way, the hypocricy is astounding. It would have been good if the international media would point out this hypocrisy. This groups gets away with alot of doublespeak.

    They call the overthrow of elected goverment in Iraq a ''real revolution'' and endorse the view that armed uprising is justified. Its actually similar reasons their opponents(often not secular) support the coup in Egypt. I dont support the coup and I have opposed it from the start, but I have problem with international media pointing out secular support for the coup, but not the fact that Muslim Brotherhood support for armed rebellion,dominated by barbarians, against another illiberal, yet elected government.
    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=31681

    I know that this isn't the worst group in the Islamic world, but they are the largest. Any constructive criticism that can pressure them to change values, or strengthen human rights in the societies they're strong in, is important.
    i
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #1 - November 03, 2014, 01:41 PM

    yes, Ikhwan, and other Islamist movements, and even Salafi / Wahaabis & dawah merchants have perfected the art of double speak and advancing their beliefs in the rhetoric of tolerance, multiculturalism etc etc - which is one reason why gullible and naive liberal relativists often give them a free pass

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #2 - November 03, 2014, 01:51 PM

    I've followed their twitter account.website and sometimes their visits in Europe for a few years, and they have always that calculating language that they use. Though I don't always trust Memri, this is Morsi engaging in typical MB doublespeak.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XXbRb_1VRrA

    The language is specifically tailored for the West, but the message to the Sharia fanboys in the crowd is clear.  

    I know why this double language is there, and all the crazy complex issues dealing with Sharia in practice and in theory. But this is really a big problem. Unless this double language is routinely exposed, there won't be an honest debate on real issues to be had.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #3 - November 03, 2014, 02:49 PM

    Caroline Fourest wrote a whole book exposing Tariq Ramadan on this which is actually called 'Brother Tariq: The Doublespeak of Tariq Ramadan"

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #4 - November 03, 2014, 02:51 PM

    Quote
    Fareed Zakaria: Why democracy took root in Tunisia and not Egypt

    More than 20 years ago, the scholar Samuel Huntington established his “two-turnover test” for fledgling democracies. A country can be said to be a consolidated democracy, he argued, only when there have been two peaceful transitions of power. This week, with its second parliamentary election, Tunisia passed Huntington’s test.

    Tunisia’s relative success is a marked contrast to the abysmal failure of Egypt, the Arab world’s largest and once most influential country. As in Tunisia, Egyptians also overthrew a dictator three years ago. But after a brief experiment with democracy, in which the Muslim Brotherhood was elected and then abused its authority, today the country is ruled by a dictatorship. I recently asked a secular, liberal Egyptian from Cairo who was involved in the uprising against Hosni Mubarak whether the current regime feels like a return of the old order. “Oh, no,” he said. “This one is far more brutal, repressive and cynical than Mubarak’s.” On Monday, Egypt’s president, Abdel Fatah al-Sissi, issued a decree allowing the trial of more civilians in military courts.

    Why did Tunisia succeed where Egypt failed? Analysts of the two countries have offered lots of answers, but the most common is that Tunisia’s Islamists were just better than Egypt’s. In both countries, Islamist parties won the first election. But as many commentators have pointed out, Tunisia’s Ennahda party, which is a rough equivalent of Egypt’s Muslim Brotherhood, sought to share power, while their Egyptian brethren did not. Ennahda has not tried to institute sharia, has declared its respect for Tunisia’s progressive laws on women’s rights and voluntarily ceded power this year to a technocratic, national unity government when faced with popular protests. The lesson seems to be that Tunisia was just lucky: Its Islamists were the good guys, the exception to the rule that Islamists are theocrats whose commitment to democracy extends only so far as one man, one vote, one time.

    But Tarek Masoud , the author of a fascinating new book on Islamists and elections titled “Counting Islam,” suggests that Tunisia’s success and Egypt’s failure have less to do with the qualities of its Islamists than with deep differences in those countries’ political environments. In Egypt, Masoud argues, Islamists were able to defeat secular parties in the first elections after Mubarak was deposed because they could piggyback on the country’s rich network of mosques and Islamic associations to reach everyday citizens. Secular parties didn’t have anything equivalent. And so, after losing election after election, they turned to the army to overturn the results of the ballot box.

    Tunisia was a different story, Masoud says. More developed, more urban, more literate and more globalized than Egypt, Tunisia had a more diverse civil society than Egypt’s — stronger labor unions, civic associations, professional groups — so there was relative parity between Islamists and their opponents. Though Islamists did well in Tunisia’s first elections, so did non-Islamists. Ennahda won only a plurality in the country’s first freely elected legislature — far less than the majority won by Islamist parties in Egypt — and had to govern in coalition with two secular parties. It shared power not because it was nicer than the Muslim Brotherhood but because it had to. And Ennahda’s opponents stuck with the democratic game even after losing, instead of calling on the army, because they, unlike the Egyptian secular parties, rightly felt they had a chance of winning in the future — as they did this week. (Tunisia is fortunate in that its army has always been subordinate to civilian authority.)

    In 1939, Walter Lippmann said that the endurance of democracy rests upon a “sufficiently even balance of political power” between government and opposition, so that the former does not become “arbitrary” and the latter “revolutionary and irreconcilable.” Masoud notes that that balance of power existed in Tunisia but not in Egypt. “The many testimonials to the foresight of Tunisia’s political leaders, the moderation of its Islamists, and the respect of its soldiers for civilian institutions obscure a much more basic fact,” he says. “Tunisia offered more fertile terrain for pluralism.”

    Of course, it may be too soon to celebrate Tunisia’s success. It faces a youth unemployment rate of about 30 percent. The government is also battling Islamist militants at home, and recent reports have suggested that the Arab world’s only democracy is also its biggest exporter of fighters to join the Islamic State. (This may be because Tunisia is relatively open and its jihadis find that their appeal is limited at home.)

    But Tunisia’s success — so far — does suggest that there is nothing in Islam or Arab society that makes it impossible for democracy to take root. As would be true anywhere, you need some favorable conditions, good leadership and perhaps a bit of luck.


    http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/fareed-zakaria-why-democracy-took-root-in-tunisia-and-not-egypt/2014/10/30/c5205adc-606a-11e4-9f3a-7e28799e0549_story.html
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #5 - November 03, 2014, 05:14 PM

    Just before or after the first elections in Egypt in 2011-2012,Amnesty International sought political parties in order for them to sign a pledge which among others included equality between men and women. The Muslim Brotherhood like other parties refused, but today they're complaining that Amnesty isn't doing enough on Egypt.They're acting as if they care about human rights and universal values. I just thought it was a good reminder of what they refused to sign

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE12/046/2011/en/78828d97-ab01-4a77-bd74-f3098647ded9/mde120462011en.pdf

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/news-item/egypt-parties-pledge-to-end-state-of-emergency-many-stop-short-of-committing-to-women-s-rights

    Here is one of the few times were Muslim Brotherhood is not using dual language when partly addressing Western audience.

    Quote

    Muslim Brotherhood Statement Denouncing UN Women Declaration for Violating Sharia Principles
    Muslim Brotherhood slams proposed UN CSW document which contradicts principles of Islam and destroys family life and entire society.

    The 57th session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women (CSW), taking place from March 4 to 15 at UN headquarters, seeks to ratify a declaration euphemistically entitled ?End Violence against Women?.

    That title, however, is misleading and deceptive. The document includes articles that contradict established principles of Islam, undermine Islamic ethics and destroy the family, the basic building block of society, according to the Egyptian Constitution.

    This declaration, if ratified, would lead to complete disintegration of society, and would certainly be the final step in the intellectual and cultural invasion of Muslim countries, eliminating the moral specificity that helps preserve cohesion of Islamic societies.

    A closer look at these articles reveals what decadence awaits our world, if we sign this document:

    1. Granting girls full sexual freedom, as well as the freedom to decide their own gender and the gender of their partners (ie, choose to have normal or homo- sexual relationships), while raising the age of marriage.

    2. Providing contraceptives for adolescent girls and training them to use those, while legalizing abortion to get rid of unwanted pregnancies, in the name of sexual and reproductive rights.

    3. Granting equal rights to adulterous wives and illegitimate sons resulting from adulterous relationships.

    4. Granting equal rights to homosexuals, and providing protection and respect for prostitutes.

    5. Giving wives full rights to file legal complaints against husbands accusing them of rape or sexual harassment, obliging competent authorities to deal husbands punishments similar to those prescribed for raping or sexually harassing a stranger.

    6. Equal inheritance (between men and women).

    7. Replacing guardianship with partnership, and full sharing of roles within the family between men and women such as: spending, child care and home chores.

    8. Full equality in marriage legislation such as: allowing Muslim women to marry non-Muslim men, and abolition of polygamy, dowry, men taking charge of family spending, etc.

    9. Removing the authority of divorce from husbands and placing it in the hands of judges, and sharing all property after divorce.

    10. Cancelling the need for a husband?s consent in matters like: travel, work, or use of contraception.

    These are destructive tools meant to undermine the family as an important institution; they would subvert the entire society, and drag it to pre-Islamic ignorance.

    The Muslim Brotherhood urges the leaders of Muslim countries and their UN representatives to reject and condemn this document, and to call upon this organization to rise to the high morals and principles of family relations prescribed by Islam.

    The Muslim Brotherhood also calls on Al-Azhar (the highest seat of learning for Muslims) to take the lead, condemn this declaration, and state clearly the Islamic viewpoint with regard to all details of this document.

    Further, we urge all Islamic groups and associations to take a decisive stand on this document and similar declarations.

    In conclusion, we call on women's organizations to commit to their religion and morals of their communities and the foundations of good social life and not be deceived with misleading calls to decadent modernization and paths of subversive immorality.

    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30731%22
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #6 - November 03, 2014, 05:21 PM

    Amnesty wanted just before or after the first elections in Egypt in 2011-2012, sought parties in order for them to pledge among others equality between men and women. The Muslim Brotherhood like many other parties refused, but today they're complaining that Amnesty isn't doing enough on Egypt. I just thought it was a good reminder of what they refused to sign

    https://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/MDE12/046/2011/en/78828d97-ab01-4a77-bd74-f3098647ded9/mde120462011en.pdf

    http://www.amnestyusa.org/news/news-item/egypt-parties-pledge-to-end-state-of-emergency-many-stop-short-of-committing-to-women-s-rights

    Here is one of the few times were Muslim Brotherhood is not using dual language when partly addressing Western audience.
    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=30731%22



    So basically "Women! Support your oppression and infantilisation, to preserve your oppression and infantilisation."
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #7 - November 03, 2014, 05:39 PM

    ^More than that, MB will put a a few women in position of power in the party, as a decoration, only for them to demand repeal of legal protections of womens rights. An example is their complaining about 'Suzanne laws', which are laws that supposedly had connection to Suzanne Mubarak who was the first lady of Egypt, and who used to focus on womens rights.
    www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=29752

    They routinely abuse words like ''human rights'' and ''universal values''.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #8 - November 03, 2014, 05:53 PM

    Yup! Also would make homosexuality illegal in Egypt; it isn't at the moment, just societally lambasted though gay marriage is illegal.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #9 - November 04, 2014, 05:35 PM

    I would suspect that Islamists organizations in Europe that talk about human rights would refuse to sign covenants for human rights. Technically,signing such a document shoul be legally binding in Sharia, even if it goes against it.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #10 - November 05, 2014, 01:53 PM

    How does MB get away with complaining about secularists who wrongly supported the coup for increased rights for minorities and women, while MB itself does support coups and rebellion against elected goverment in Iraq, because of curtailment of civil liberties of Sunnis. http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=31681
    When they were writing the constitution, they managed to limit every sentence supporting freedom to Sharia.

    So far MB gets away with these things.At the same time,some western journalists, while focusing on 'secularists'and 'liberals' who dont respect the rules of democracy, are forgetting this or ignoring it.

    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=31681

    On the issue of MB dual language, I just remembered a spokesman for the MB complaining about the Sisi goverment ''prioritizing'' crackdown on gays. And some western journalists probably thought:wow MB supports gayrights. Thats the tailored language that the MB uses. The keyword was prioritizing, which meant that he was only complaining about the priority of such a crackdown at the time.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #11 - November 05, 2014, 03:21 PM

    Stoning, chopping limbs and death penalty for those who leave Islam are all part,in theory, of how Muslim Brotherhood interprets the Sharia.The application maybe different than AQ, but in theory it's there.

    Quote
    The legislative reforms envisaged by the Supreme Guide do not stop at abolishing laws that infringe on civil liberties. Asked about the Muslim Brotherhood?s position on the implementation of Islamic punishments known as hudud laws, Akef declares, ?This issue has been extensively repeated by people; however, they do not really understand it. The hudud are limited to [particular] issues. People should understand the meaning of hudud and how they are executed. That is not my vision, that?s the vision of Islam. Islam has drawn this honorable picture. Mercenaries and those with ill intentions parrot those words without having any understanding of those [concepts]. Does Islam only mean the hudud?? he wonders out loud, accusing critics who raise the issue of mounting a smear campaign against his group.


    But there?s no escaping that Islamic legal punishments include the amputation of thieves? hands, stoning to death those convicted of adultery, whipping consumers of alcohol and executing apostates. Which is not to say Akef would not apply hudud to Egypt?s criminal code if the Brotherhood were to reach power. ?We would execute the hudud, but in respect to all conditions set for their implementation. I would never say that we will not execute the hudud.? He does, however, make it clear that the application of hudud punishment is next to impossible in practice, referring to the Prophet?s (PBUH) tradition that says: ?Avoid [application] of hudud where there is doubt.?  

    http://www.ikhwanweb.com/article.php?id=4912

    Akef is the former head of MB.

    What that would be in practice maybe different, but I wouldn't trust.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #12 - November 06, 2014, 09:32 PM

    Ive tried to draw attention to the fact that MB supports overthrowing, through armed rebellion, elected governments when that goverment oppresses Sunni muslims. They themselves would oppress all sorts of religious minorities. Ive tried get journalists,bloggers, members of important think tanks to comment on this hypocrisy.But so far most haven't noticed or just ignored.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #13 - November 06, 2014, 09:38 PM

    I feel a bit guilty to be pointing this out when the goverment of Egypt is cracking down hard on the MB. But I remember how they behaved, and how their attitude was when they were in government and had little power.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #14 - November 06, 2014, 09:53 PM

    Morsi's government reminded me of Daniel Ortega and Hugo Chavez - use democracy to gain power, systematically undermine it when in power. All despise democracy.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #15 - November 06, 2014, 10:07 PM

    The Egyptian constitution of 2012 was passed without a single christian voter in the assembly. Despite promising not to use constitutional declaration, Morsi broke his promise, like alot of MB promises made in 2011. Another promise was to have an NGO-law which would allow human rights organization to work freely. They wrote a liberal law prior coming to power and when they finally were in power, they wrote an oppresive NGO-law.
  • Islamists&Sharia&Democracy
     Reply #16 - November 06, 2014, 10:09 PM

    Daniel Ortega too clamped down hard on NGOs. Somme have been nationalised. All must submit minutes of their meetings to the Ministry.
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