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 Topic: Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up

 (Read 12936 times)
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  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #60 - July 11, 2015, 09:52 AM

    You mean your confusion.

    Hmmm... I have a feeling I know who this "Maxi Priest" is.


    It's possible. I was your biggest supporter at one stage, and you have replied to me a few times via email when I was leaving Islam. Is this your way of not replying to my question, as in - how do you square it? (see previous)
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #61 - July 11, 2015, 01:08 PM

    Quote
    You mean your confusion.

    Hmmm... I have a feeling I know who this "Maxi Priest" is.

    It's possible. I was your biggest supporter at one stage, and you have replied to me a few times via email when I was leaving Islam. Is this your way of not replying to my question, as in - how do you square it? (see previous)


    Hello Max..  let us be  a TRUE priest in our actions and in our words .,   and don't worry what Hassan says to you . You know I and Hassan go way back ..~2006/2007.. He also used to get upset with me.. He still does., He must have blocked/unblocked me some 100 times . I don't care. So don't worry. STICK TO YOUR GUNS.,

    People like you and me are quite flexible..  If we are wrong , we accept that we are wrong and we change but others have to prove that we are wrong. until then we fire our guns..  lol..

    So your post here is interesting
    One thing I always liked, for example, was your correctly placed sarcasm at how it is highly suspicious that God seems to think the world is only the middle east (and other things of that nature) - that isn't just destroying the idea that it is the perfect word of god, that is a valid remark on the dubious nature of religion's origin. Now you are saying that Mohammed was just flawed in his divine interpretation, hence the Quran is too, but then what about your previous view regarding the highly dubious origins of all the Abrahamic faiths. How do you square that? They were all just a bit flawed, all divine, but all made the same mistake when it came to notions of world size? The humour you once found at the obvious pulling of wool over eyes, you now respect? If Mohammed was just flawed in his interpretation, he was flawed in a most vulgar way with regards killing jews, christians, infidels and so on - what is their to respect and admire in someone who thinks like that?
    Quote
    The reason for ppl's confusion is obvious, but you are saying you can't understand why.


    It is clear from Hassan's writings that his goal in fact is confusing Muslims,  specially Muslims  who preach Islam.  He  wants to  confuse such Muslims  w.r.t rules and  regulations of Islam  so they themselves will find out  what is right and what is wrong in Islam. And he would like to do it with-in Islam being a Muslim guy.  And for that,  He starts a  new sect "Islam Antagonistic or Agnostic Islam".  I say there is nothing with that.

    What is the goal a website like this?  Educating Muslims and non-Muslim folks to open their minds to the faults that are there in their respective religious beliefs.  And Hassan is doing a very good job.   Muslim folks will listen to an educated Muslim guy(whatever sect he may be) about Islam than from Ex-Muslim or Non-Muslim.  He happened to be an agnostic Muslim. Don't you agree with me??  
    Quote
    If you really wanted to help Muslims, and to help ex-muslims recover, you seem to be going the right way about doing neither, I am very sorry to say[/i].

     
    As far as that is concerned.,  He is doing his work., There are people who read his words and start thinking. Every one has limitations so he set his own limits and he works with in those limits. As long as you, me and others have freedom to question him and his belief it doesn't matter what he says.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #62 - July 11, 2015, 02:47 PM

    Hassan, can I ask if you believe in the 'day of judgment'?  The reason I ask is that the Qur'an seems to treat being a "Muslim" as sort of an ecumenical concept for the idea that 'you submit to the plan of the one true God ... with his day of judgment and resurrection of the body, so be righteous and have faith."  Anybody who follows those basic beliefs seems to be a Qur'anic Muslim -- not somebody who believes all of the accumulations of later Islam.  At any rate, I am curious what your personal belief is on this subject, if you do not mind.


    I don't believe in any sort of day of Judgment personally. I consider all the Abrahamic stories to be completely man-made myths.

    Muhammad (or those who authored the Qur'an) came from an area and a time period where the Abrahamic myths surrounded them and they framed their thoughts and ideas within that tradition - as they saw it.

    When I say I accept Muhammad was inspired - I don't mean in a specific or literal way - I mean it in a mystical, indefinable way. As I have said I believe there is "something" more to this material existence of ours - something I can't quantify or define in anyway. The closest I can come is saying that it is some sort of force of life, nature, the cosmos. It inspires us, motivates us, make us wonder, seek and explore and create works of art.

    In this way I can accept Muhammad was inspired by God (For my understanding of God please see above sentences on this "something") and the Qur'an was the result of his inspiration framed according to the myths he was familiar with.

    I also consider Jimi Hendrix's guitar playing to be inspired by this force.

    I hope the above^ sentence makes it clear what I mean by inspiration.

    I am - in other words - opening up what it means to be a Muslim.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #63 - July 11, 2015, 02:50 PM

    Hello Max..  let us be  a TRUE priest in our actions and in your words  and don't worry what Hassan says to you . You know I and Hassan go way back ..~2006/2007.. He also used to get upset with me.. He still does., He must have blocked/unblocked me some 100 times . I don't are. So don't worry. STICK TO YOUR GUNS.,

    People like you and me are quite flexible..  If we are wrong , we accept that we are wrong and we change but others have to prove that we are wrong. until then we fire our guns..  lol..

    So your post here is interesting
    It is clear from Hassan's writings that his goal in fact is confusing Muslims specially Muslims  who preach Islam.  He  wants to  confuse such Muslims  w.r.t rules and  regulations of Islam, so they themselves will find out  what is right and what is wrong in Islam. And he would like to do it with-in Islam being a Muslim guy.  And for that,  He start a  new sect "Islam Antagonistic or Agnostic Islam".  I say there is nothing with that.

    What is the goal a website like this?  Educating Muslims and non-Muslim folks to open their minds to the faults that are there in their respective religious beliefs.  And Hassan is doing a very good job.   Muslim folks will listen to an educated Muslim guy(whatever sect he may be) about Islam than from Ex-Muslim or Non-Muslim.  He happened to be an agnostic Muslim. Don't you agree with me??  
    As far as that is concerned.,  He is doing his work., There are people who read his words and start thinking. Every one has limitations so he set his own limits and he works with in those limits. As long as you, me and others have freedom to question him and his belief it doesn't matter what he says.

    with best wishes
    yeezevee



    Thank you, Yeezy.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #64 - July 11, 2015, 04:06 PM

    I see, thanks for explaining that Hassan.  I think people should be free to think for themselves, so I encourage your innovations!    Afro
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #65 - July 11, 2015, 05:07 PM

    Thanks Zaotar  Afro
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #66 - July 11, 2015, 10:46 PM

    I see, thanks for explaining that Hassan.  I think people should be free to think for themselves, so I encourage your innovations!    Afro

    Hello Zaotar.,  this statement 
    Quote
    "I think people should be free to think for themselves"

      you wrote creates serious problem to so-called Islamic Ummah., specially if  well educated Muslim folks well versed in Islamic theology starts thinking the way Hassan Radwan is thinking.  People like Hassan will get attacked from every side.. Ex-Muslims., Muslims and even non-Muslims because his idea of Agnostic Muslim is new and out of the Abrahamic religious box specially Islamic box.  So Max Priest has the right  to question  Hassan's approach and Hassan's Islam. If I understood  Max Priest's acid words correctly,  It appears that  Max Priest is thinking...  That Hassan's way of explaining  Islam, Quran, Muhammad is very confusing for  Ex-Muslim folks who completely left Islam. 

     Here I don't think Max Priest assumption is correct.

    Max Priest  questions  and Hassan's Islam opens up new can of warms.. new questions but as you said Hassan and other Muslim folks like Hassan "Must have freedom  to think for themselves with-in Islam".

     Now I am curious how many AGNOSTIC MUSLIMS are out there in the web who think in the similar way as Hassan.. So let me go around and ask google god/s..

    Quote

    well frankly speaking there are very very few Muslim folks who came out and say that they are Agnostic Muslims..  and some of those links could be from Hassan himself .. lol...

    So question is,  Could Hassan work Hard dedicate himself to that "Agnostic Muslim Cause"??   Could people help Hassan financially, politically and othe wise to become as famous as let us say  these guys  such as  This guy?   .......or..... This guy? .......or..... This guy? .......or..... This guy? .......or..... This guy .......or..... This guy? ..

    Actually I think that is the question  of  Max Priest.,  How many Muslims can Hassan Influence by his Agnostic Islam??

     Max_P  may also be thinking that,  Hassan is actually confusing Muslim folks  who are in the middle of leaving Islam who may have joined CEMB   and are getting more confused with Hassan's posts and his  way with-in  Islam..  Cheesy

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #67 - July 12, 2015, 08:05 AM

    The problems that arise with the labelling oneself "Agnostic Muslim" is that people cannot separate the two words. Rather than be viewed as an agnostic with a Muslim identity, it may appear that one has not yet made up their mind whether they believe Islam to be true or fake.  The label itself causes many to question anyone who uses it, whereas, for example "atheist Muslim" is pretty much self explanatory - non believer and a cultural Muslim..    On the plus side, seeing the "agnostic Muslim" label encourages practising Muslims to question their beliefs while remaining within the folds of Islam..  so it is a good label after all lol..

  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #68 - July 12, 2015, 11:53 AM

    Perhaps you could replace the word “mainstream” with dominant. Throughout Islamic history, there have been countless interpretations of Islam and scripture that have varied quite widely from one another. The Mu’tazilah specifically come to mind since they, as a matter of principle, explicitly incorporated human logic into interpretation of the Qur’an. They also considered the Qur’an to be created as opposed to the eternal, verbatim, uncreated word of God. The Mu’tazilah considered themselves Muslims – true Muslims, even – and enjoyed prominence for a moment in Islamic history. It is only because their views were widely stamped out by other schools that we now only view them in terms of being heretical. (Of course, there are plenty of things I’d also disagree with as it relates to Mu’tazilite thought. I mention them only to illustrate that Islam has not always been restricted to what we call “mainstream” today.)


    It's odd, from talking to Muslims or even reading this forum you don't really get the impression of such a diverse history different interpretations. Muslims are always so hostile to anyone who disagrees with the dominant discourse and Islam is not like Christianity these days with countless different denominations, heck, you yourself were a salafi, they're infamous for being so hostile to those who disagree with their views.

    It seems that the vast majority of Muslims have always been Sunni Muslims following the various Madhabs, How many different variations have there been? Is there a book you can recommend for me to read that explains the history of differant versions of Islam?
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #69 - July 12, 2015, 02:34 PM

    The diverse history you tend to get from a smaller number of posts/threads. It's there, but as a support group the majority is what people of this generation are going through. If CEMB had existed in the 60s/70s, it would be quite different.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #70 - July 12, 2015, 02:36 PM

    The irony is that salafis spend so much of their time discussing "deviant sects" throughout Islamic history, but only in the context of them being heretical. Ibn al Jawzi's book Talbis Iblis (The Devil's Deception) comes to mind.

    Perhaps the biggest problem is the doctrine of prohibiting innovation, especially when only one narrow interpretation is promoted as being authentic. There has been extremely healthy discussion in Islamic history over things like whether or not god's attributes are to be taken literally or allegorically, whether or not the Quran is created or uncreated, whether or not god is omnipresent or limited in a physical sense, whether or not hell is eternal or temporary (or even allegorical) etc. Those discussions have been mostly muted, however, outside of the framework of academic discussion.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #71 - July 12, 2015, 04:15 PM

    'There has been extremely healthy discussion in Islamic history over things like whether or not god's attributes are to be taken literally or allegorically, whether or not the Quran is created or uncreated, whether or not god is omnipresent or limited in a physical sense, whether or not hell is eternal or temporary (or even allegorical) etc. Those discussions have been mostly muted, however, outside of the framework of academic discussion.'

    Without wishing to sound arsey, does Ibn al Jawzi back this last assertion up?
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #72 - July 12, 2015, 04:54 PM



    Perhaps the biggest problem is the doctrine of prohibiting innovation, especially when only one narrow interpretation is promoted as being authentic. There has been extremely healthy discussion in Islamic history over things like whether or not god's attributes are to be taken literally or allegorically, whether or not the Quran is created or uncreated, whether or not god is omnipresent or limited in a physical sense, whether or not hell is eternal or temporary (or even allegorical) etc. Those discussions have been mostly muted, however, outside of the framework of academic discussion.


    So why are Muslims these days so stubbornly rooted in their interpretations if the room for possible interpretation is so wide and have been contemplated at length in the past? It doesn't seem to be the case with other religions. I have observed that Muslims seem to take pride that there is no variation, as if Islam is so clearly the truth because all Muslims agree on what Islam teaches (unlike other faiths)
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #73 - July 12, 2015, 05:05 PM

    Without wishing to sound arsey, does Ibn al Jawzi back this last assertion up?


    Only in the sense that he asserts the "devil" to have deceived the groups that he doesn't agree with.

    I honestly consider the spread of Wahhabism to be behind a lot of the literal, logic-lacking interpretation we see prevalent today. And I'm not suggesting Islam was ever this super liberal faith - it's just that this idea that there has only been one "mainstream" interpretation is a fairly new one.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #74 - July 12, 2015, 07:10 PM

    As a sockpuppet account of a previously-banned user, Maxi Priest has been banned from the forum.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #75 - July 12, 2015, 07:29 PM

    That username reminds me of some of the local drug dealers in my area.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #76 - July 12, 2015, 10:22 PM

    I honestly don't understand why certain members have been so determined to voice their hostile opinions about Hassan's views. If he wants to label himself as an agnostic Muslim then that's perfectly fine. He has clearly explained what he means by the term so it's not like he's trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I would advise the naysayers to drop their dictionary definitions as dictionaries are only descriptive, they ain't prescriptive.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #77 - July 12, 2015, 11:02 PM

    yep, i hope mine didn't come acrross that way, i was just trying to explain why the label may cause problems for Hassan and why people may question it or mistaken his meaning, some may think an agnostic muslim is someone who is unsure about islam. may be the case for others who use the label but Hassan has explained clearly time over what the words mean to him and they make perfect sense, i think he should add it as a signature to all correspondance to save the endless explanations lol..
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #78 - July 12, 2015, 11:10 PM

    Quote
    yep, i hope mine didn't come acrross that way,


    I don't think that it did, don't worry about it Smiley

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #79 - July 12, 2015, 11:19 PM

    @ Qtian

    Exactly. He's explained what he means by the term and why he chose it. People who won't stop telling him what the words technically mean aren't telling him anything that he--and we--haven't heard enough for a lifetime by now. And if you're that deeply troubled or irked by what Hassan is doing to where you need to keep hounding him for it (not saying everyone who ever asked questions/voiced concerns about the term or his ideas are doing this; the rude or relentless detractors know who they are), chances are you're not going to be the target audience for voices of change or one yourself, anyway. So no need to stress yourself out about it.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #80 - July 13, 2015, 03:10 AM

    I honestly don't understand why certain members have been so determined to voice their hostile opinions about Hassan's views. If he wants to label himself as an agnostic Muslim then that's perfectly fine. He has clearly explained what he means by the term so it's not like he's trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes. I would advise the naysayers to drop their dictionary definitions as dictionaries are only descriptive, they ain't prescriptive.


    I believe is it left over tribalism some still find appealing. Some never dropped tribalism when leaving Islam, or any other religion, but just merely transferred allegiances to their new "atheist" tribal association. Hassan having provides a different view than one he had years ago is seen as having left the new "tribe" Also for those that used his videos in their journey this could cause them to question the results and influence of Hassan in their de-conversion thus become uncomfortable having a figure important in this journey not turning out as they wished or thought shared the same views. I believe a lot of the backlash is due to Hassan's influence in this journey more than anything else. After all I went on record about questioning my current views after of years of arguing for the views I now question. Yet I suffered no backlash as I do not have Hassan's influence on strangers lives.

    For myself I do not associate atheists as a tribal group thus I have no issues with Hassan's changing views. I can agree or disagree with parts of his views but he is not making huge claims or trying to convince others his view in the only way or true way.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #81 - July 13, 2015, 08:57 AM

    As a sockpuppet account of a previously-banned user, Maxi Priest has been banned from the forum.

    whoever multi-nicking in the forum..  there  multi-nicks should be attached  to their user name.    you guys may have figured out the reason to ban such guys., but i am not sure banning such people who question Agnostic Muslims or Agnostic Islam will help in popularizing  Agnostic Islam

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #82 - July 13, 2015, 09:13 AM

    Sorry, Yeez, but this one is not up for negotiation. Of course he was not banned for questioning Hassan's position. That'd be insane.

    As for popularizing it, that's not our job. It is our job to make sure everyone who uses the forum feels and is safe as well as we can. And obviously we're not going to let people who were banned just register a new name and keep posting.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #83 - July 13, 2015, 09:42 AM

    ................... And obviously we're not going to let people who were banned just register a new name and keep posting.

    hello lua Along with it, would it better for the forum to expose old sock puppet name of a new member ...??  
    Quote
    As for popularizing it, that's not our job. It is our job to make sure everyone who uses the forum feels and is safe as well as we can....

    that i agree.,  well popularizing alternate views on Islam that allows other Muslim folks to feel more comfortable with in Islam  and with the  forum is also important...  Muslim folks may read CEMB but they hardly write in it .. Most of them who join go straight into Ex-Muslim mode..

    Imagine the forum become stepping stone to millions of Muslim folks   who are uncomfortable with present Islam/Islamic state  and become Agnostic Muslims and stay with-in Islam yet discuss the good..bad and problems in it openly...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #84 - July 13, 2015, 10:29 AM

    Of course he was not banned for questioning Hassan's position. That'd be insane.


    This^

    Let me make it very clear that I have absolutely no problem with anyone here questioning anything about my views.

    However I do have a problem with a certain person stalking me and harrasing me online because he has a personal problem with me.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #85 - July 13, 2015, 10:31 AM

    This^
    .
    ...........certain person stalking me and harrasing me online because he has a personal problem with me.

    Well that is a different game and that is unacceptable  and is a very good reason to ban the such scoundrels...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #86 - July 13, 2015, 11:32 AM

    I believe is it left over tribalism some still find appealing. Some never dropped tribalism when leaving Islam, or any other religion, but just merely transferred allegiances to their new "atheist" tribal association.


    Marry me.

    I've been thinking about this "belief tribalism" for ages.

    My mind runs, I can never catch it even if I get a head start.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #87 - July 13, 2015, 11:48 AM

    ^ I thought the same when I first joined this forum lol, although I think views have altered and softened over time.   I wonder whether ex muslim atheists, especially ex salafis make the most militant atheists, I've never met any in person.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #88 - July 13, 2015, 12:49 PM

    hello lua Along with it, would it better for the forum to expose old sock puppet name of a new member ...??   that i agree.,  well popularizing alternate views on Islam that allows other Muslim folks to feel more comfortable with in Islam  and with the  forum is also important...  Muslim folks may read CEMB but they hardly write in it .. Most of them who join go straight into Ex-Muslim mode..

    Imagine the forum become stepping stone to millions of Muslim folks   who are uncomfortable with present Islam/Islamic state  and become Agnostic Muslims and stay with-in Islam yet discuss the good..bad and problems in it openly...


    I agree about the discussion and the dissenting opinions. There's a lot of different views on the forum, a lot of discussions, and I like that visitors can be exposed to all of these ideas and form their own. No one is getting banned for expressing contrary opinions or concerns. Look at laico: he's a great example of someone who has valid questions and concerns and his own viewpoints, and as a result of them, there was a good discussion going. That's awesome. We want to keep stuff like that.

    As for asking for his/her identity, you're just going to have to trust this time that they were originally banned for a reason. With the exception of the ones in the forum rules (and those ones are there to keep this place from becoming a vitriolic nightmare where no ex-Muslim feels comfortable speaking about sensitive issues and their personal lives), no one is going to be banned for voicing an unpopular opinion. You get banned for representing a serious threat to the forum and its members, or for breaking forum rules.

    Quote
    If babies are atheists because they "lack belief in God", then household items such as your kitchen knife and toaster are also "atheist" under this definition.


    I was recently told that a box cake's instructions represented a philosophy so you bet your sweet, sweet ass that I'm going to also consider my toaster an atheist toaster.
  • Will the "True Islam" Please Stand Up
     Reply #89 - July 15, 2015, 12:23 AM

    After a few people requesting it, I've moved the side discussion about atheism and definitions here: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=29045
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