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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam: The Fixer Upper

 (Read 1678 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     OP - July 17, 2015, 03:04 PM

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33563558

    This article caught my eye on the BBC this morning.

    Quote
    Speaking in Abu Dhabi, American scholar Sheikh Hamza Yusuf urged a return to the core tenet of mercy in Islam, describing the religion as a house that had been neglected and was in need of renovation.

    "The water taps aren't working, the plumbing's not working. The house is in disarray," he told the Associated Press.

    "You don't destroy it, you don't set it aside. You renovate it."

    He said Muslims should not oppose even strong reforms, nor feel that everything needed to be changed.

    "Because of the urgency of the situation, some people are waking up... and thinking we better do something," he said.


    I’d be curious to know just how far these scholars (see, I resisted the urge to use quotation marks there) would be willing to go with their reforms. I wonder what parts they feel are in most need of improvement and what parts are still worth salvaging. Will they look at root causes and tackle real issues, or skirt around them with sophistry and double-speak?

    It’s interesting that Hamza advocates a return to the “core tenet” of mercy. Mercy still implies superiority. Mercy still implies power. Mercy still implies that I am right and you are wrong. Mercy implies that you are deserving of something far worse, but because I am so magnanimous, I’m willing to let you off the hook. 

    Freedom and acceptance are quite different things, though. Freedom would mean that people are allowed to think for themselves and reach their own conclusions. Acceptance would mean that we allow those new ideas to exist as part of healthy debate in society. I wonder if Hamza would be OK with that.

    It would be tough, I assume. Where would these guys draw the line? Could we have Muslims who believe in human evolution? Could we have LGBT Muslims? Could we have female imams? Could we have Muslims who questions the existence of God? Could we have Muslims who don’t believe the Qur’an is perfect? Could we have Muslims who don’t believe Muhammad was perfect? Could we have Muslims who don’t believe in heaven or hell? Could we have Muslims who believe that there is nothing wrong with being a moral Sikh or Jew or Atheist? Would they be willing to say to the world, “Hey guys, this Islam stuff works for us. If it doesn’t work for you, then that is totally cool. To you be your way and to me be mine.”

    Or would these guys still have to draw the line in the sand somewhere and say “No, we’re not tolerating you! We need to change you!”?

  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #1 - July 17, 2015, 05:16 PM

    happy_M says.........  happily says something  freely...  freely.. freely ....with lots and lots of  freedom  But I  will leave freedom alone and  select only few words from his post...
    Quote
    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-33563558  Speaking in Abu Dhabi, American scholar Sheikh Hamza Yusuf...............

    ..... he said...

    This article caught my eye on the BBC this morning.
    ........  scholars......... Hamza ............ Hamza ...........

    Or would these guys still have to draw the line in the sand somewhere and say “No, we’re not tolerating you! We need to change you!”?

     Hmm..  .........."No We will not tolerate you we will change you"........ those are  loaded words., loaded with freedom..

    Instead those "Freedom words",   let me understand simpler words that I picked from happy_M's post ..... such as.. Abu Dhabi...scholar....Sheikh Hamza Yusuf........Hamza  

    And  I am not going call that guy as Sheikh Hamza Yusuf no..no way., wherever and whenever I write about him,  I will call him as Mark Hansen .. The Male Nurse.  NO DISRESPECT TO NURSES.. in my book millions of them are  angels across the globe..   Allah/god/whatever sent  angels  to help many around the globe

    Calling him his acquired Islamic  name  "Hamza" is an insult to people like
    that Hamza Kashgari, the  Saudi columnist    on whom we have folders  in CEMB  or Hamza Hakimzade Niyazi of Uzbekistan or Hamza Shehata  of Saudi Arabia

    "So No Hamza for that guy .,  but  ...Mark Hansen .. Mark Hansen The trained  Male Nurse .....  and let me watch a  tubes on him first..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dANVf61K8Ak

    Well That is good enough to start with.   But I will watch later those  hours and hours of lectures on heaven and houries by that Male Nurse Mark Hansen
    Quote


    sorry .......   I ..I can not listen to your nonsense Mark Hansen.. So let me enjoy this...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_tXteMTmwE

    And This
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #2 - July 17, 2015, 06:32 PM


    NO DISRESPECT TO NURSES.. in my book millions of them are angles across the globe..   Allah/god/whatever sent angles to help many around the globe
     


    Yes. Where would we be without the acute, the obtuse and, of course, the eponymous right-angle? So right, it can't be wrong.

    (It's OK yeez, just blame it on autocorrect. )
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #3 - July 17, 2015, 07:12 PM

    Yes. Where would we be without the acute, the obtuse and, of course, the eponymous right-angle? So right, it can't be wrong.

    (It's OK yeez, just blame it on autocorrect. )

    Ohofff ....   UberSlave... I AM NOT GOING TO THANK YOU for pointing out at the spell mistake.,   yes.. yes .. Right  angels  and Wrong  angels...

    damn you I tried to see in google how   angels look...  you get some naked pictures..  Anyways  help me out  with this male nurse  Mark Hansen.. and his Islamic preaching..

    recently Mr/dr?  Ali Sina wrote an article on Islamic  Mark Hansen  his NEAR DEATH PROBLEMS.. I know Ali is very smart guy but I   understand neither Ali Sina nor Mark Hansen. so please read that and help me out Mark Hansen

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qY17d4ZhY8M

    with best wishes
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #4 - July 17, 2015, 08:19 PM

    well let us fix Islamic intellectual/preacher Mark Hansen with another Muslim guy...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPU5KKBMSH0

    under that tube there are comments.. they say
    Quote
        good vid bro! I always wonder if guys like Hamza dufus really believe what they are preaching or not. so hard to believe they can actually believe some of the stuff they spit out...  says Shahid Akhira 1 month ago
     
    Mr. Yusuf is not a Scholar, more of a historian - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSwC_wct4zQ&feature   says Hussain Fahmy


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSwC_wct4zQ

    well That is what Islam is.. well he must have freedom to say what he is saying...but people must have freedom to question him.. Lucky guy   ....BORN IN USA........

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #5 - July 17, 2015, 11:32 PM

    As a bit of a tangent from the original subject, I do think Islam and religion in general is going to keep getting backed up against the wall and get to this point eventually, where any relevant advocate will have to at least operate under the banner of being tolerant and accepting. It's hard to say when it will really tip in that direction, who will be along for the ride, and so on.

    When I was an apologist, I was in this tricky situation, and I have the tendency to imagine that other apologists (especially the more intelligent, more charismatic ones) are in a similar spot, although maybe not to the same degree. I am sure I'm just projecting like crazy most of the time, but I still remember what it was like to have to walk the tightrope where I was staying within the limits of both worlds.

    I wanted to say, "Of course I believe in evolution/of course I think being gay is fine/obviously there's nothing wrong with x, y, and z," but I was conscious of how far I could possibly advocate any of that before I was ousted from Islam by all the "real" Muslims. So, instead, I had to say, "Well, I believe evolution was like the hand of God...we must be sympathetic and understanding of people who have these extra burdens...you have to understand why someone would wind up doing x, y, and z and forgive them." And I did that for a while, rationalizing it, thinking I could set a better example from the inside--and then you all know the rest.

    I don't know about this Hamza Yusuf guy or many other individuals in his position. But when I hear someone calling for mercy in this situation, I remember that gross time in my life where I was imploring others to have mercy on the "wrongdoers." You know, the girls with revealing clothes, those who had pre-marital sex, people who were gay, who weren't Muslim, to remember that they are human and forgive them. And what a degrading thing it was in the end for these people, to have someone saying they deserve forgiveness. I spoke of them like criminals and us like the jury.

    So I don't necessarily find much comfort in people speaking the way this Yusuf guy is, asking for mercy and talking about the mercy of Islam. I am much more comforted to see the increasing number of Muslims who refuse to play the judge at all, and who argue that it's not other Muslims' right to, either. I am certain that change will come, but I hardly expect these scholars to be the harbingers.
  • Islam: The Fixer Upper
     Reply #6 - July 17, 2015, 11:55 PM

    Honestly, the clergy is the last place that reform is going to come from. It's the seat of orthodox religious power and that status quo suits them just fine.

    Thinkers, scientists etc. are going to be the ones advocating substantial change. In the Muslim world they can be simply shut up through intimidation, but as a liberal, "cultural" version of Islam begins to grow and gain prominence in different parts of the West I think it becomes harder and harder for such hardliners to justify that kind of control. But I damn well know they'll try to hold on to it and the power it allows them to wield until the bitter end.

    how fuck works without shit??


    Let's Play Chess!

    harakaat, friend, RIP
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