Confused...

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- sceptical77
- Member
- offline
Confused...
OP - March 07, 2016, 12:13 AM

Hi everyone!
I am writing this as a confused muslim.I have read another confused muslim's writing here (the topic "confused and depressed" on the introductions page) and i saw that his/her feelings are exactly the same as mine,which has encouraged me to write all this. I am glad to see that there are some ppl who can understand my mood.I am sorry if my english is weak.
Till last year,i had been a practising muslim but then things have changed. I came across those anti islamic claims and started to have doubts. I saw the claims about Muhammad and his actions.I realized that there is another Muhammad who is very different from the one that I have always been told. Im really confused.I wanna go into details: One Muhammad is excellent,peaceful,morally perfect and forgiving but the other one is not so.There are two different Muhammads. If he is a bad person, whats with all those hadiths and verses telling us to do good things? They cant belong to an evil man.Which Muhammad is true? I just don't understand. How can a peaceful and forgiving person kill ppl who insult him ? If Muhammad really said so many good things in his hadiths,if he did so many good deeds, how can such a person execute hundreds of men (banu qurayza) and sell some of their women as sex slaves? - By the way,he was gonna do the same to the jews of banu qaynuqa but Abdullah bin ubay prevented him! - If he permitted his men to have sex with (or rape) slave women even if they are married (the quran 4:24), how can he also say things like "feed them from what u eat,clothe them from what u wear" ? I find sexual slavery indefensible.You can take a captive woman as "booty of war" and use her for your sexual desire,this sounds disgusting.However,i dont understand why did most of these concubines accept islam??? It is really confusing! I have read some articles&watched 2 videos in defense of this concubinage issue but im not still fully convinced.Especially the verse 4:24 (and the narration about Awtas which explains why this verse was revealed) it permits muslim men to have sex with the captive women even if they are married! I was shocked when i first saw this verse which is really disturbing.Imagine that your enemies take your wife as a slave,as a "booty of war" and do that to her,who can justify such an outrageous thing? You can share your opinions on this issue,that'd be great!
There is so much confusion in my head.There are also some other things confusing me,like the justice of hell,the existence of god,the eternity of afterlife,the theory of evolution. I dont believe everything will be as in the past. Sometimes i think i will leave this religion but im not ready yet,but sometimes i feel kinda guilty and think "these are all satanic whispers,dont think about these, i must repent and start praying again and everything will be ok" Im not sure.
I am sick n tired of thinking all the time and reading all those claims,rebuttals,and then claims again.I can't make up my mind. What is right,what is wrong? I don't know. I dont know when i will get rid of this crisis, and i really wonder how i will end up...
Sorry if this is all nonsense and thanks for reading!
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Confused...
Reply #1 - March 07, 2016, 01:15 AM

Quote
sometimes i feel kinda guilty and think "these are all satanic whispers,dont think about these

The idea that doubts are to be feared can be crippling. I am not an ex muslim. I have never been Muslim. I have never felt guilty about questioning Islam. I don't think there is a good reason to feel guilty about it. Is there really?

Maybe there doesn't need to be 'good reason' for how you feel (or how Islam has taught you to feel), but there is good reason to doubt. It's the only way to know anything at all, and if Islam is the truth, then surely skepticism would lead you to that truth, more conclusively than anything else.
- Helaine
- Not Religious
- Member
- offline
Confused...
Reply #2 - March 07, 2016, 08:47 AM

About "Muhammads".... Muhammad was a normal person like everyone else. He had his good and bad side. Like a warlord, he was power-hungry, lustful, and quite materialistic. People are contradictory, him included. Nobody is perfect. Nobody is a prophet.

Just as an example, Gandhi:

Quote
lthough Gandhi was not the originator of the principle of nonviolence, he was the first to apply it in the political field on a large scale.[179] The concept of nonviolence (ahimsa) and nonresistance has a long history in Indian religious thought.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mahatma_Gandhi

Quote
Meanwhile, it seemed that challenging times required greater efforts of spiritual fortitude, and for that, more attractive women were required: Gandhi called for his 18-year-old grandniece Manu to join him – and sleep with him. "We both may be killed by the Muslims," he told her, "and must put our purity to the ultimate test, so that we know that we are offering the purest of sacrifices, and we should now both start sleeping naked."

....

Like many great men, Gandhi made up the rules as he went along.

http://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/books/features/thrill-of-the-chaste-the-truth-about-gandhis-sex-life-1937411.html

I mean, if you read biographies, there are always this bad and good side of those famous dudes. Mohammad was just a man, like all the other charismatic wo/men before (and after) him, he's flawed.

Also: confirmation bias, messiah-complex, savior-complex, etc.
- C
- Member
- offline
Confused...
Reply #3 - March 07, 2016, 09:56 AM

i dont think muhammad was evil…he was a product of his time…some hadith suggest he was notably honest, against wife-beating, cruelty to slaves & animals, so on…in some ways you could argue he was progressive for his society. but ultimately he seems so brutal bcoz hes the product of a brutal society.

sex slavery was normal for that time…kill the men…take the young women…its even in the old testament. so muhammad & his warriors wouldnt have seen anything wrong with this. such is the fate of the losers…the women will bear muslim children & be incorporated into dar-al-islam & everyone lives happily ever after.
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Confused...
Reply #4 - March 07, 2016, 11:07 AM

Quote
he was a product of his time

That's obviously true, but it's still enough to doubt Islam, since he isn't supposed to a product of his time. He is supposed to be a role model for our time, and until the end of time.
- asbie
- Actually just a dude
- Poster of the Month
- Past, present, future...
- offline
Confused...
Reply #5 - March 07, 2016, 01:06 PM

Welcome to the forum sceptical77, have a rabbit!

I am sorry you are feeling confusion. The advice I can offer you is to keep researching, keep an open mind and be willing to find out that which is truth regardless of where it may lead you. It is difficult, but in the end an exercise that I hope will prove worthwhile. Don't give up, and best of luck to you!

Quote from: yeezevee on February 11, 2016, 02:05 PM
how fuck works without shit??

Let's Play Chess!

harakaat, friend, RIP
- sceptical77
- Member
- offline
Confused...
Reply #6 - March 07, 2016, 08:16 PM

Thanks for the answers! "Good side and bad side" hmm,that makes some sense. I'll think about it.
Asbie,thank u for the advice but it seems like this will never end!
- three
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Confused...
Reply #7 - March 08, 2016, 01:28 AM

Quote from: C on March 07, 2016, 09:56 AM
i dont think muhammad was evil…he was a product of his time…some hadith suggest he was notably honest, against wife-beating, cruelty to slaves & animals, so on…in some ways you could argue he was progressive for his society. but ultimately he seems so brutal bcoz hes the product of a brutal society.

sex slavery was normal for that time…kill the men…take the young women…its even in the old testament. so muhammad & his warriors wouldnt have seen anything wrong with this. such is the fate of the losers…the women will bear muslim children & be incorporated into dar-al-islam & everyone lives happily ever after.

Yes, but if that is the best that God could do, to allow rape and cruelty and then seal it as permissible for eternity, then that God is a piece of shit.
God is supposed to be omnipotent.
God is supposed to be able to open the heart of a person. If God thought that Muhammad was the best person in the universe to transmit His message for all people forever, then God has some serious problems with critical thinking. For real, there was no person better than this? No one who could preach and practice peace? God obviously did not and does not favor peaceful means. Does He then deserve worship?
Sex slavery is normal in this time, never mind centuries ago, when was it ever absent from the face of the earth? Islam gave it a code of law that legitimized it. God could easily have outlawed this crime against humanity and made it punishable by death in Islamic law. Easily. But He did not.
God is an asshole like that. He chose suffering over justice and cruelty over compassion and refused to flex His might for the good of all mankind. Inexcusable.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
- C
- Member
- offline
Confused...
Reply #8 - March 08, 2016, 01:39 AM

Quote
Yes, but if that is the best that God could do, to allow rape and cruelty and then seal it as permissible for eternity, then that God is a piece of shit.

yes…thats how we know islam is a man made invention.

Quote
Sex slavery is normal in this time, never mind centuries ago, when was it ever absent from the face of the earth? Islam gave it a code of law that legitimized it. God could easily have outlawed this crime against humanity and made it punishable by death in Islamic law. Easily. But He did not.

im not sure how popular jihad would be if you cant rape the women you capture…im sure it was big motivator.

i disagree that sex slavery is normal in this time…its illegal everywhere & practiced by criminal orgs. us army didnt take a bunch of virgins when they occupied iraq…no actual army does that…in antiquity that was normal. a religion invented anywhere today would not endorse sex slavery.

the severe limitations in islams moral code is a strong argument against it being a timeless code from god.
- three
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Confused...
Reply #9 - March 08, 2016, 02:50 AM

Sex slavery is practiced everywhere. It is even legal in many places. Despite it being illegal in the United States it is here, too. Every year the public awareness campaign about it heats up just before the Super Bowl, which unfortunately seems to attract the most customers. It used to be called prostitution, when it was paid for in this country, and the victims were the ones punished rather than those holding them captive. Now we know a bit better, that a woman made to have sexual relations or perform sexual acts against her will while being held captive is a sex slave. Not a prostitute.
Sadly it is, and has always been, present in most countries. Usually it is out of sight.
I am happy you think otherwise, for perhaps that means it is not present in your community. I saw sex slaves for the brief time I spent in Abu Dhabi, in daylight for crying out loud. You would think Dubai, but no. I saw it in Abu Dhabi. As a child there was a family arrested for stealing children in my own city, that had been operating successfully for over a decade. I had evaded them, myself, while on the street as a kid- twice.
There are armies that do take sex slaves. ME is not the only place in the world where this occurs or has occurred. Just recently Japan finally agreed to pay damages to ¨comfort women¨ after years of denial. Look at the LRA. Disgusting how often this happens, how many victims there are.
I disagree that something being illegal makes it abnormal. When a practice is prevalent, despite the laws forbidding it, then it is currently being practiced. When a substantial number of people are arrested in a sting, then obviously it is more common than it should be and the laws are not deterring the perpetrators.
I know I might be preaching to the choir here, but your posts are not making your position very clear, and I would hate to think that anyone thought this issue was solved, or that there were no current victims of sex slavery outside of ISIS. That will not help to spread awareness or encourage people to act in ways that support the eradication of slavery.

Sorry for off topic. Last one.

Don't let Hitler have the street.
- C
- Member
- offline
Confused...
Reply #10 - March 08, 2016, 12:10 PM

i never said sex slavery doesnt exist…i said its illegal practically everywhere & seen as a grave crime. 1400 years ago…there were open slave markets…an open slave trade…people were seen as legitimate war booty. no geneva convention…no sense that there was anything wrong about it.

a typical pattern was invade, kill men, take women& children as slaves…those were the actual rules & norms of war…not some hidden shameful thing where gangs & criminals operating in the underbelly would kidnap & sell people. as demonstrated by most every war in the past decade this is no longer how wars are done.

in his context…muhammad wasnt the moral equivalent of a pimp or human trafficker…he was just a typical leader. imperial japan has been dead for over 70 years…the lra is a militia not a legitimate army. ur not making a strong case for sex slavery being accepted & normal in todays world.
- dr_sloth
- Pub Regular
- Orthodox Atheist
- offline
Confused...
Reply #11 - March 09, 2016, 08:28 AM

a christian feeling guilty about doubting christianity at 1:05:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObYq-E-R_20
- ElToro
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Confused...
Reply #12 - April 03, 2016, 05:25 PM

Welcome sceptical77

Quote from: three on March 08, 2016, 01:28 AM
Yes, but if that is the best that God could do, to allow rape and cruelty and then seal it as permissible for eternity, then that God is a piece of shit.
God is supposed to be omnipotent.
God is supposed to be able to open the heart of a person. If God thought that Muhammad was the best person in the universe to transmit His message for all people forever, then God has some serious problems with critical thinking. For real, there was no person better than this? No one who could preach and practice peace? God obviously did not and does not favor peaceful means. Does He then deserve worship?
Sex slavery is normal in this time, never mind centuries ago, when was it ever absent from the face of the earth? Islam gave it a code of law that legitimized it. God could easily have outlawed this crime against humanity and made it punishable by death in Islamic law. Easily. But He did not.
God is an asshole like that. He chose suffering over justice and cruelty over compassion and refused to flex His might for the good of all mankind. Inexcusable.

I do agree with three. I mean Muhammed has gone so far that he forbids other religions. He attack other gods of the arabs that time, which is considered blasphemy. He forbid pork and alcohol. So why not slavery?
1« Previous thread | Next thread »