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 Topic: How much do muslims know about islam?

 (Read 5241 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • How much do muslims know about islam?
     OP - February 24, 2009, 11:56 AM
    I was having a discussion with my sister and cousin, who are both very devout,  and they were talking about women's rights in Iran. Anyway, they were talking about how terrible it is in Iran that in a law of court, a woman's testimony is worth only half of a man's. They were also talking about how it is disgusting that a father can get his daughter married off at the age of nine!

    That is just Islam! If you ask any Muslim scholar, he will tell you that a woman's testimony is worth half a man's, and that Muhammad married a nine year old!

    I am just surprised at how little muslims actually know about their religion and then people who leave Islam are accused of leaving Islam through ignorance and not knowing enough about Islam.
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #1 - February 24, 2009, 12:00 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on February 24, 2009, 11:56 AM
    I was having a discussion with my sister and cousin, who are both very devout,  and they were talking about women's rights in Iran. Anyway, they were talking about how terrible it is in Iran that in a law of court, a woman's testimony is worth only half of a man's. They were also talking about how it is disgusting that a father can get his daughter married off at the age of nine!

    That is just Islam! If you ask any Muslim scholar, he will tell you that a woman's testimony is worth half a man's, and that Muhammad married a nine year old!

    I am just surprised at how little muslims actually know about their religion and then people who leave Islam are accused of leaving Islam through ignorance and not knowing enough about Islam.


    Muslims are ignorant about Islam, if they weren't, most of them would leave the religion quickly. Some decieve themselves with "their own versions" of Islam, but again, if they know how quickly this concept falls flatly on it's face, they would leave Islam.

    This is the reason the multi million dollar industry of "imamism" and "daw'ah" exists, someone needs to explain Islam to the people in a way that it would keep them believing, controlling when and how they hate, love, fear and assess. It's so genius it's criminal.
    "I am ready to make my confession. I ask for no forgiveness father, for I have not sinned. I have only done what I needed to do to survive. I did not ask for the life that I was given, but it was given nonetheless-and with it, I did my best"
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #2 - February 24, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Know the feeling. Did you point out that it was actually part Islam?
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #3 - February 24, 2009, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Know the feeling. Did you point out that it was actually part Islam?


    No i didn't because i am not "out"
    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #4 - February 24, 2009, 12:16 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on February 24, 2009, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Know the feeling. Did you point out that it was actually part Islam?


    No i didn't because i am not "out"

    That doesn't really matter much, you should still point it out Tongue It's the best way to 'come out' slowly if you ever have the intention of doing so.  Also it's a good way of making them question their faith.

    Oh and welcome to the forum Smiley
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #5 - February 24, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Hi aliadiere!

    My mum and her family are Muslim. From my experience, there are 5 kinds of Muslims:

    1) Those who don't know much, they believe as their family did, and aren't particularly interested in learning much either. My mom was like this as a child.

    2) Those who know everything, including all the bad, and have been so thoroughly indoctrinated since childhood that they accept it all, even the bad & justify it to everyone. My uncle(mom's sister's husband) and 2 of his kids are like this.

    3) The deeply devout, who believe the Quran came from Allah via Muhammad, its all perfect & was aimed to liberate women, give freedom to slaves etc but was constrained by the time and sexist Arab society, but today's true believers have a duty to expand the freedoms Islam gave to women & even the religious pluralism Islam aims at. My grandfather is like this.

    4) The partial believers, cultural Muslims, who realise there're problems in the Quran and hadiths & are skeptical about it, yet who hold on lightly to their beliefs, while being largely non religious in their daily lives, and take decisions not wholly based on the Quran. My mom's like that now.

    5) Those who havn't read the Quran, don't know & don't think much about it, yet are convinced that it is all Allah given& religiously practice it, without knowing more about the faith. Loads of people, perhaps the majority of the world's Muslims are like that.

    Thats' pretty much all the types, I guess. mysmilie_977

    Welcome to the Forum. It would be nice if you introduce yourself. Smiley
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #6 - February 24, 2009, 01:40 PM
    Quote from: aliadiere on February 24, 2009, 12:05 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 12:01 PM
    Know the feeling. Did you point out that it was actually part Islam?


    No i didn't because i am not "out"


    Are you aware of where justification for such rules are found in the Qur'an and Hadiths?

    Even though you are not out, there is great benefit in showing the truth of the scriptures. You are can present it as "here is what the Qur'an says or what the prophet did", not in a critical light.

    Only after the truth is revealed can they decide whether they go with their conscience or follow the tinted shades of faith.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #7 - February 24, 2009, 01:48 PM
    @ Rashna,

    I was goin? to write something abt my friends and how they vary in this manner;

    One close friend of mine really tires me; he knows well the basics, cares not to drink or eat pork, prays and fasts, etc;
    yet, he is ignorant about some bad stuff especially in hadith, when confronted with them he automatically admits that it might sound illogical or harsh, whatever was the case,  but here?s the kicker;
    he still believes it?s fine, as long as the creator-almighty wants it.

    FYI, last thing we discussed and his response was in this way: hand-chopping.


    Where do you put him?

    category 1, maybe?


    Another buddy has different story, tell it later.

     grin12
    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #8 - February 24, 2009, 01:53 PM
    Rashna's missed out number 6-

    Those muslims who feel strongly about their faith yet when confronted with hadiths that cannot be reconciled with their conscience they come up with whatever apologetics they can to justify it or they disregard the verses as 'unreliable'
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #9 - February 24, 2009, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 01:53 PM
    Rashna's missed out number 6-

    Those muslims who feel strongly about their faith yet when confronted with hadiths that cannot be reconciled with their conscience they come up with whatever apologetics they can to justify it or they disregard the verses as 'unreliable'


    I think thats' a part of Type 2.  Wink My cousin Adil justifies past Islamic slavery & some other stuff in this way.

    @Emerald

    I think there are people who're combinations of these types. There can be innumerable combinations. Smiley
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #10 - February 24, 2009, 02:10 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 24, 2009, 02:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 01:53 PM
    Rashna's missed out number 6-

    Those muslims who feel strongly about their faith yet when confronted with hadiths that cannot be reconciled with their conscience they come up with whatever apologetics they can to justify it or they disregard the verses as 'unreliable'


    I think thats' a part of Type 2.  Wink My cousin Adil justifies past Islamic slavery & some other stuff in this way.

    @Emerald

    I think there are people who're combinations of these types. There can be innumerable combinations. Smiley

    I don't think it does, type 2 seems to be referring to the radicals while type 6 are the more moral bunch who come out with an endless array of excuses but would never do such a thing themselves. My dad is one of them.
    ~My story~
    ~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #11 - February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Many have a warped version of Islam. Reminds me of last Sunday's Big Question show on BBC1.

    A Muslim said Muhammad never allowed rajam (stoning). He said that there was only one case where it happened in the prophet's lifetime, and that was because the adulterer, a woman, insisted that she be punished according to God's law.

    Of course we know of many hadiths where Muhammad did judge a penalty of stoning. So either he is ignorant of scripture or he was lying.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #12 - February 24, 2009, 03:11 PM
    Quote from: a.ghazali on February 24, 2009, 02:13 PM
    Many have a warped version of Islam. Reminds me of last Sunday's Big Question show on BBC1.

    A Muslim said Muhammad never allowed rajam (stoning). He said that there was only one case where it happened in the prophet's lifetime, and that was because the adulterer, a woman, insisted that she be punished according to God's law.

    Of course we know of many hadiths where Muhammad did judge a penalty of stoning. So either he is ignorant of scripture or he was lying.

    If he was non-arab, then he was probably sincere. If he was an arab then he was lying through his nose.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #13 - February 24, 2009, 03:22 PM
    Quote from: Baal on February 24, 2009, 03:11 PM
    If he was non-arab, then he was probably sincere. If he was an arab then he was lying through his nose.


    He must have been Pakistani or Indian origin. I figured that is just a story he was told. He most likely would never research himself.
    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #14 - February 24, 2009, 06:06 PM
    Quote from: PeruvianSkies on February 24, 2009, 02:10 PM
    I don't think it does, type 2 seems to be referring to the radicals while type 6 are the more moral bunch who come out with an endless array of excuses but would never do such a thing themselves. My dad is one of them.


    Okay, accept. I guess I'll shift my uncle & cousins from Type 2 to Type 6 then, I don't think they're capable of honor killing or killing apostates, although I'm not exactly sure. I hpoe my relatives aren't like that.

    A titbit Actually, my Uncle says that he admires the guts of the 9\11 hijackers for "fighting against Jewish Christian oppression", but I seriously don't think he'd do any such thing personally, or encourage anyone to.
    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #15 - February 24, 2009, 08:02 PM
    Quote from: Emerald on February 24, 2009, 01:48 PM
    @ Rashna,

    I was goin? to write something abt my friends and how they vary in this manner;

    One close friend of mine really tires me; he knows well the basics, cares not to drink or eat pork, prays and fasts, etc;
    yet, he is ignorant about some bad stuff especially in hadith, when confronted with them he automatically admits that it might sound illogical or harsh, whatever was the case,  but here?s the kicker;
    he still believes it?s fine, as long as the creator-almighty wants it.

    FYI, last thing we discussed and his response was in this way: hand-chopping.


    Where do you put him?

    category 1, maybe?


    Another buddy has different story, tell it later.

     grin12

    This friend of yours, is probably either is a criminal, either is one of the most honest and sincere people you will have around you. He will not waste your time or his with justifications.

    Only you can determine which of the Two he is. If he is an honset person, then find out what really holds him to the religion. Clearly it is not the hand chopping, he struck that off as a necessary evil. But necessary for what? for what goal? Find out from him what is it that he ultimate goal. What is his personal goal of just accepting the commands? He is probably an honest guy and will come right out and tell you. He probably even already told you.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #16 - February 24, 2009, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: Rashna on February 24, 2009, 01:27 PM
    Hi aliadiere!

    My mum and her family are Muslim. From my experience, there are 5 kinds of Muslims:

    1) Those who don't know much, they believe as their family did, and aren't particularly interested in learning much either. My mom was like this as a child.

    2) Those who know everything, including all the bad, and have been so thoroughly indoctrinated since childhood that they accept it all, even the bad & justify it to everyone. My uncle(mom's sister's husband) and 2 of his kids are like this.

    3) The deeply devout, who believe the Quran came from Allah via Muhammad, its all perfect & was aimed to liberate women, give freedom to slaves etc but was constrained by the time and sexist Arab society, but today's true believers have a duty to expand the freedoms Islam gave to women & even the religious pluralism Islam aims at. My grandfather is like this.

    4) The partial believers, cultural Muslims, who realise there're problems in the Quran and hadiths & are skeptical about it, yet who hold on lightly to their beliefs, while being largely non religious in their daily lives, and take decisions not wholly based on the Quran. My mom's like that now.

    5) Those who havn't read the Quran, don't know & don't think much about it, yet are convinced that it is all Allah given& religiously practice it, without knowing more about the faith. Loads of people, perhaps the majority of the world's Muslims are like that.

    Thats' pretty much all the types, I guess. mysmilie_977

    Welcome to the Forum. It would be nice if you introduce yourself. Smiley


    Hey Rashna, I think you have got some mileage with this.  Just needs to be ordered & rejigged, e.g. from say a "weak" Muslim to a "strong" muslim, like we have terms for weak atheist & strong atheists.

    Anyone else agree, or have ideas for improvement?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #17 - February 24, 2009, 10:39 PM
    The vast majority of Muslims were merely born into the religion.  They were identified as "Muslims" when they were still in their mothers wombs.

    It's like they signed a contract without reading it.  They had no choice in the matter.

    Baring this in mind, I think it's fair to say that most Muslims know very little about their own religion, apart from the basics.  eg, praying, fasting, Eid, that alcohol and pork are haram... etc

    They know very little about where all of these teachings actually came from, and they know very little about whats actually written in the Quran, and what Muhammad was actually like.


    Only those Muslims who go out of their way and actually choose to study the religion at some point in their lives will become knowledgeable about the deen.
    .
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #18 - February 24, 2009, 11:16 PM
    Not necessarily. 

    There are also those (like me), that never looked all that deeply into it before renouncing it.  I never even got as far as reading the whole Quran, let alone the hadith. 

    It will become even easier, with websites such as these, and I am still sure that we will all see those walls slowly crumble during our lifetimes. 

    Punk
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #19 - February 25, 2009, 06:13 PM
    Ive been surrounded by born Muslims for 23 years...I converted 20 years ago...and I have had more arguments with them about whats in the Quran and what isnt too many times to count. I argued myself into a near heartattck once when one Muslim lady tried to claim that stoning for adultery was in fact in the Quran. She was nearly screaming at me ready to kick my butt in her absolute belief it was in there. I showed her that it wasnt and she was stunned. She was like..."all my life Ive been lead to believe it was in there...Ive read the Quran hundreds of times and I swear it was in there...I dont know why its not in there now."

    Ive argued with Muslims over the craziest of things...and it just proves to me that many born Muslims have no fricken clue whats in the Quran...they know a few ayat for prayers...they know a few hadith to spout out...and thats it.

    Since I started questioning my beliefs in Islam...Ive started looking with an even more critical eye...which just proves to me that even I was duped over many issues for so long...but Ive come along way in 2 years...and my arguments have only gotten better...and pissed more people off but what can I say...once you learn something...you cant unlearn it.
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #20 - February 25, 2009, 07:28 PM
    Quote from: coolred38 on February 25, 2009, 06:13 PM
    Since I started questioning my beliefs in Islam...Ive started looking with an even more critical eye...which just proves to me that even I was duped over many issues for so long...but Ive come along way in 2 years...and my arguments have only gotten better...and pissed more people off but what can I say...once you learn something...you cant unlearn it.


    Salam coolred,

    I'm a bit curious, as what would you describe yourself now? Are you doubting but struggling to regain your faith? Or are you past that phase and want to find and accept reasons that Islam is not true?
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #21 - February 25, 2009, 08:22 PM
    How much do muslims know about islam?  Surprisingly little.  Its sad that the average ex-muslim knows more about Islam than Muslims, when it would be the other way around if it were true.

    Two examples this week made me realise how little my mum even knows.  She was the one that told me about the prophet having rubbish thrown on him by a Jewish lady, and when he had no rubbish thrown on him, he went to enquire if she was ill.  She told me about the prophet giving a cat his pillow.  Both subsequently shown to be without a source!  Just small made up stories.  Just like Islam, one big made up story.

    Had I remained a Muslim I probably would never have questioned them, never have known and passed the same stories on to the next generation and they would have been none the wiser too.  Just like the religion.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #22 - February 26, 2009, 04:21 AM
    Aziz

    Well...I cant say I exactly WANTED to find reasons to doubt Islam...I was fine with it...defended it better than the average Muslim really back in the day...but eventually the inconsistencies started to showing up more than ever and I couldnt ignore them. The more I actually learned (not just accepted at face value) the less I liked what I saw.

    Right now Im probably not a Muslim anymore...I have more doubt then belief...what keeps me from declaring myself a nonMuslim is not wanting to hurt the feelings of my children and closest Muslim friends.
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #23 - March 01, 2009, 03:24 AM
    Quote from: coolred38 on February 26, 2009, 04:21 AM
    what keeps me from declaring myself a nonMuslim is not wanting to hurt the feelings of my children and closest Muslim friends.


    So, you prefer to hurt the feelings of Muslims over the internet?  Cheesy

    In fact, you should be honest with them and try to make them repudiate Islam with your knowledge. You can take them out of Islam more effectively. This comes very close to hypocrisy. You should stand up for what you believe in.

    Look at Maryam Namazie! She stands up openly for what she believes and her whole family and close friends know that she has renounced Islam. Nobody is after her relatives in Iran. She is not a closet-apostate like Ali Sina, Abul Kasem and many others.

    In fact, your children and your closest Muslim friends are the best bunch to start with. Do you wish them to remain Muslims?

    All of us will die and will be buried. I will be buried according to Islamic rites. If you don't tell them, they will do the same to you.  Cheesy Better tell them.

    Salaams
    BMZ



  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #24 - March 01, 2009, 04:20 AM
    BMZ

    Its not like they have no clue...Ive had arguments with them...especially my 17 year old and my best friend...about my deeper disbelief. They know my situation and point of view..they just dont realize how deeply Ive "gone to the dark side". I told my friend I dont consider myself Muslim anymore and she kicked my ass...told me its websites like this one that foster disbelief and I should avoid them...we go round and round.

    Im not staying the in the closet...the door is open...people see me and hear me talk...they arent stupid...I just havent declared myself in the community courtyard while standing on a box with a megaphone in my hand. Not likely to do that...my beliefs or lack there of arent for public fodder...my children will either accept it or not...choose to see it my way or not...but they are nearly grown and will have to find their way themselves.

    I cannot force them to unbelieve...
  • Re: How much do muslims know about islam?
     Reply #25 - March 01, 2009, 05:09 AM
    Quote from: coolred38 on March 01, 2009, 04:20 AM
    BMZ

    Its not like they have no clue...Ive had arguments with them...especially my 17 year old and my best friend...about my deeper disbelief. They know my situation and point of view..they just dont realize how deeply Ive "gone to the dark side". I told my friend I dont consider myself Muslim anymore and she kicked my ass...told me its websites like this one that foster disbelief and I should avoid them...we go round and round.

    Im not staying the in the closet...the door is open...people see me and hear me talk...they arent stupid...I just havent declared myself in the community courtyard while standing on a box with a megaphone in my hand. Not likely to do that...my beliefs or lack there of arent for public fodder...my children will either accept it or not...choose to see it my way or not...but they are nearly grown and will have to find their way themselves.

    I cannot force them to unbelieve...


    Cool. I will leave at that.

    Thanks
    BMZ

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