History of Maqam Ibrahim?

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History of Maqam Ibrahim?
OP - April 24, 2009, 02:27 PM

What is the history of this? Why is it called Maqam Ibrahim? Does anyone know if there is a source relating to Ibrahim using it as a stepping stone to build the Kaaba?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #1 - April 24, 2009, 02:57 PM

I don't have an authoratative Islamic Source for this, but this short section explains its nature:

http://www.hajinformation.com/main/j1094.htm

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #2 - April 24, 2009, 03:00 PM

That's a bit crap. I've just been googling it and found out this except in Wiki-

Quote
The outcropping rock (which is attributed as "Maqam Ibrahim") located inside the Dome of the Rock at Jerusalm fits the Qur'an's description in 3:98 while the "Maqam Ibrahim" in Mecca is located outside the shrine/temple conflicting with the description given in the Scripture? Also, the "Maqam Ibrahim" in Mecca has been given no religious significance in any of the Jewish and Christian scriptures whereas the "Maqam Ibrahim" in Jerusalem fits with the story in all of the Abrahamic scriptures of Abraham almost sacrificing one of his sons.

I remember Rashna talking about this once, hopefully she'll come and comment on this (or anyone else knowledgeable). I'd like to know why the stone in Mecca is called Maqam Ibrahim.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #3 - April 24, 2009, 03:08 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 03:00 PM
I remember Rashna talking about this once, hopefully she'll come and comment on this (or anyone else knowledgeable). I'd like to know why the stone in Mecca is called Maqam Ibrahim.

The stone and maqam are two different things. Hope you're not mixing them up. There's footprints in the maqam, said to be Ibrahim's, and the stone is a stone..

It's called Maqam Ibrahim cuz it's where he supposedly stood while supervising the building of the Ka'ba.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #4 - April 24, 2009, 03:12 PM

Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 03:08 PM
Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 03:00 PM
I remember Rashna talking about this once, hopefully she'll come and comment on this (or anyone else knowledgeable). I'd like to know why the stone in Mecca is called Maqam Ibrahim.

The stone and maqam are two different things. Hope you're not mixing them up. There's footprints in the maqam, said to be Ibrahim's, and the stone is a stone..

It's called Maqam Ibrahim cuz it's where he supposedly stood while supervising the building of the Ka'ba.

Oh right. Is there any evidence that Abraham came to Mecca?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #5 - April 24, 2009, 04:07 PM

Well my link DID state this:

"In order to complete the upper part of the walls of the Kaaba, Ibrahim stood upon a large stone block which he moved along when each section was completed."

And no, there's no non-Islamic evidence of Abraham ever travelling that far south.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #6 - April 24, 2009, 04:11 PM

Thanks. Does anyone know how that place in Mecca came to be known as Maqam Ibrahim?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #7 - April 24, 2009, 04:15 PM

Quote from: Pazuzu on April 24, 2009, 04:07 PM
And no, there's no non-Islamic evidence of Abraham ever travelling that far south.

I thought there were Jewish traditions, similar to the hadith, about Abraham visiting his son Ishmael. Sefer ha-Aggadah probably has them. I have the book at home. Or someone can consult sheikh google .

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
Thanks. Does anyone know how that place in Mecca came to be known as Maqam Ibrahim?

Well, Maqam can mean 'Standing spot' (remember those foot prints), though Google translates it as 'shrine' and 'seat'.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #8 - April 24, 2009, 04:19 PM

Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 04:15 PM
Quote from: Pazuzu on April 24, 2009, 04:07 PM
And no, there's no non-Islamic evidence of Abraham ever travelling that far south.

I thought there were Jewish traditions, similar to the hadith, about Abraham visiting his son Ishmael. Sefer ha-Aggadah probably has them. I have the book at home. Or someone can consult sheikh google .

He never went to Mecca though. There is no mention of it anywhere before Islam.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #9 - April 24, 2009, 04:20 PM

Pictures of it:

This

is in this

(the glass case, not the Ka'ba )

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #10 - April 24, 2009, 04:21 PM

Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 04:15 PM
Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 04:11 PM
Thanks. Does anyone know how that place in Mecca came to be known as Maqam Ibrahim?

Well, Maqam can mean 'Standing spot' (remember those foot prints), though Google translates it as 'shrine' and 'seat'.

I meant when was it first named as Maqam Ibrahim?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #11 - April 24, 2009, 04:22 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 04:19 PM
Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 04:15 PM
Quote from: Pazuzu on April 24, 2009, 04:07 PM
And no, there's no non-Islamic evidence of Abraham ever travelling that far south.

I thought there were Jewish traditions, similar to the hadith, about Abraham visiting his son Ishmael. Sefer ha-Aggadah probably has them. I have the book at home. Or someone can consult sheikh google .

He never went to Mecca though. There is no mention of it anywhere before Islam.

The Torah says Hagar and Ishmael were sent to Paran, which is Arabia. And the story of ZamZam is in the Bible too, so if Abe were to visit, where else would he be going?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #12 - April 24, 2009, 04:29 PM

Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 04:22 PM
Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 24, 2009, 04:19 PM
Quote from: awais on April 24, 2009, 04:15 PM
Quote from: Pazuzu on April 24, 2009, 04:07 PM
And no, there's no non-Islamic evidence of Abraham ever travelling that far south.

I thought there were Jewish traditions, similar to the hadith, about Abraham visiting his son Ishmael. Sefer ha-Aggadah probably has them. I have the book at home. Or someone can consult sheikh google .

He never went to Mecca though. There is no mention of it anywhere before Islam.

The Torah says Hagar and Ishmael were sent to Paran, which is Arabia. And the story of ZamZam is in the Bible too, so if Abe were to visit, where else would he be going?

According to muslims. According to other sources Paran is in Israel in the Negev Desert, the Bible only mentions a spring and they exist outside of Mecca too. This is wiki's article on Pran-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Desert_of_Paran

Mecca is not considered a significant place in Christianity and Judaism, if Abraham had been there and built the Kaaba then it should be considered very important to them, however according to wiki- Mecca cannot be found on any ancient trade map, or recorded as a center for pilgrimage or major religious activity before the 7th Century CE.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #13 - April 24, 2009, 04:32 PM

later in the wikip article it says:

Quote
In Encyclopedia Biblica it is clearly stated (under the heading 'Paran') that Paran is Arabia and quite fascinatingly in the same reference Eusebius and Jerome are quoted to have said that Paran is in Arabia southward where the Saracens (arbs) are ACHAA.

Further proof that Paran means the Arabian peninsula can be found in the history of Arab peoples. According to their oral tradition, which can be further authenticated by archaeological study and by genetic research, the Arab tribes in Mecca (such as the Quraish) were direct descendants of Ishmael, who was left there with Hagar. Many of the rites of Hajj reproduce the story of what happened after Abraham left Hagar there in Mecca. Finally, the prophecy concerning a last prophet to come out of "Paran" are believed by Muslims to have meant the Prophet Muhammad, who was born in Mecca and whose ancestry can be traced to Ishmael

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #14 - April 24, 2009, 04:36 PM

That is interesting. I'll have to look into it.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #15 - April 24, 2009, 10:44 PM

I'm having trouble finding anything on this. According to Wiki some of the critiques by Encyclopedia Biblica have been made obsolete due to modern research, not sure if this is included though. From what I've read so far, the idea that Paran is Arabia seem rather weak when compared to it being Negev.

Wiki has a shitty article on whether Bakkah is Mecca, Baca or Jerusalem-
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #16 - April 24, 2009, 11:50 PM

"Writer Christoph Luxenberg... notes that the change from initial B to initial M which should have produced Makkah (Mecca) from Bakkah is not standard in Arabic, so the change is not explained."

However, it IS changed in other words without change in meaning, such as with lazim and lazib.

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #17 - April 25, 2009, 05:05 AM

Quote from: wikipedia
Further proof that Paran means the Arabian peninsula can be found in the history of Arab peoples. According to their oral tradition, which can be further authenticated by archaeological study and by genetic research, the Arab tribes in Mecca (such as the Quraish) were direct descendants of Ishmael, who was left there with Hagar. Many of the rites of Hajj reproduce the story of what happened after Abraham left Hagar there in Mecca. Finally, the prophecy concerning a last prophet to come out of "Paran" are believed by Muslims to have meant the Prophet Muhammad, who was born in Mecca and whose ancestry can be traced to Ishmael

What rubbish proofs!

Such similar oral tradition existed amongst ancient Egyptians that their God Osiris taught the ancient Egyptians farming & was murdered by His wicked brother Seth, which was also reproduced in various religious plays, do we accept that as proof of Osiris' existence?

As for archaeological evidence, similar bizarre claims have been made by the Book of Mormon.

As far as genetic research is concerned, pre Islamic Arabs & Jews often intermarried-Kaab ibn al Ashraf was the son of a Jewish mother & pagan father, some kids might be the other way round, which is where Jewish ancestry comes from, if at all proper genetic research has been carried out.

Finally with Muhammad being the Last Prophet, again no proof!

Muhammad's family were hanifs, they already believed in a Single God. Because Jews had lived for centuries in Arabia, they had localised some legends-they believed that Ibrahim had come there, so did the Arab hanifs, who believed that they were descendants of Ishmael. (Polytheisms often accept additional gods or legends without much resistance, eg the Buddha had preached a new faith but the polytheistic Hindus accepted the Buddha as one of their gods.)

Karen Armstrong writes all this in her book, "A History of God," page 185.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #18 - April 25, 2009, 06:08 AM

It's wikiP, why don't you fix it?

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #19 - April 25, 2009, 07:47 AM

Quote from: awais on April 25, 2009, 06:08 AM
It's wikiP, why don't you fix it?

I'm not very net savvy, & I already spend far too much time here.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #20 - April 25, 2009, 11:48 AM

Thanks for the input Rashna You'd do a great job on wiki if you decided to contribute

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Re: History of Maqam Ibrahim?
Reply #21 - April 25, 2009, 02:11 PM

Quote from: PeruvianSkies on April 25, 2009, 11:48 AM
Thanks for the input Rashna You'd do a great job on wiki if you decided to contribute

You're welcome! Maybe I'll contribute to wiki sometime in the future.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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