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Theme Changer

 Topic: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!

 (Read 6511 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     OP - May 26, 2009, 03:20 PM

    The Quran claims to be preserved in Heaven, in a Guarded Tablet, according to the Quran itself:

    Qur'an 85:21-22
    85.21: Nay! it is a glorious Quran.
    85.22: In a guarded tablet.

    I have some doubts regarding this claim:

    The Quran, in its present form was put together by Zaid, but other Sahaba reported that verses went missing, why is that?  Huh?

    For instance, the breastfeeding verses:

    Book 008, Number 3421: Sahih Muslim'A'isha (Allah be pleased with, her) reported that it had been revealed in the Holy Qur'an that ten clear sucklings make the marriage unlawful, then it was abrogated (and substituted) by five sucklings and Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) died and it was before that time (found) in the Holy Qur'an (and recited by the Muslims)."

    Then there is the problem of abrogation, abrogation was due to the changing circumstances Muhammad found himself in, was the Quran in Heaven abrogated as well when circumstances changed, or was the latter part only there in the tablet? questions2

    Quran 2:106, 10:15
    [2.106] Whatever communications We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it. Do you not know that Allah has power over all things?

    [10.15] And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who hope not for Our meeting say: Bring a Quran other than this or change it. Say: It does not beseem me that I should change it of myself; I follow naught but what is revealed to me; surely I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the punishment of a mighty day.

    Then there is the infamous Satanic Verses, which Muhammad later retracted, he claimed that Satan had blinded him to save himself from the embarrassment of being proved a forger, in verses the Quran claims that Satan had included verses, again does Satan do this to the Heavenly tablet as well or only to the Earthly version? questions2

    Quran 22:53
    "That He may make the suggestions thrown in by Satan, but a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and who are hardened of heart: verily the wrong-doers are in a schism far (from the Truth)" (22:53).

    So there are verses thrown in by Satan in the tablet as well? And Allah lets them remain there, or was it Muhammad's narration which differed from the tablet in these circumstances?  questions2


    Finally, if Muhammad wanted a new wife or a new woman in his life, verses were revealed accordingly, why would the tablet in Heaven make such provisions?  Huh?

    066.001
    YUSUFALI: O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.
    PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
    SHAKIR: O Prophet! why do you forbid (yourself) that which Allah has made lawful for you; you seek to please your wives; and Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

    What is one to do about verses like breastfeeding & stoning, which disappeared from the Quran, but remained in the hadiths? Are the verses pre abrogation when the Sahabas were in great difficulties part of the Heavenly Tablet Quran as well?


















































    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quran in a Golden Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses
     Reply #1 - May 26, 2009, 03:41 PM

    Where does it say golden tablet?
  • Re: Quran in a Golden Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses
     Reply #2 - May 26, 2009, 04:02 PM

    It is guarded, allow could have still allowed the Quran to be in any state in the guarded tablet unless if you've seen the Qu'ran in heaven I don't see how you could doubt/know if the Quran in heaven is not the same one as the current Arabic quran. And moreover I am also interested in knowing where you got the "gold" from? As it is actually made of white pearls!
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses
     Reply #3 - May 26, 2009, 04:05 PM

    Where does it say golden tablet?


    Shit! I wanted to write guarded, wrote golden!  015

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #4 - May 26, 2009, 04:46 PM

    I managed to make it guardedyay

    So why are there these oddities in the earthly Quran?  Huh?

    Abrogations, missing verses, Satanic verses & verses to satisfy Muhammad? Are they there in the tablet as well, or only in the earthly edition of it? bunny

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #5 - May 26, 2009, 05:02 PM

    Good questions  Afro

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #6 - May 26, 2009, 05:07 PM

    I managed to make it guardedyay

    So why are there these oddities in the earthly Quran?  Huh?

    Abrogations, missing verses, Satanic verses & verses to satisfy Muhammad? Are they there in the tablet as well, or only in the earthly edition of it? bunny


    Muslims don't even accept the Satanic verse's hadith many suspect it is a forgery.
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #7 - May 26, 2009, 05:09 PM

    I managed to make it guardedyay

    So why are there these oddities in the earthly Quran?  Huh?

    Abrogations, missing verses, Satanic verses & verses to satisfy Muhammad? Are they there in the tablet as well, or only in the earthly edition of it? bunny


    Muslims don't even accept the Satanic verse's hadith many suspect it is a forgery.


    Abrogations? Verses like stonings? The ban on men & women who have been breast fed by the same woman from marrying?


    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #8 - May 26, 2009, 05:29 PM

    I managed to make it guardedyay

    So why are there these oddities in the earthly Quran?  Huh?

    Abrogations, missing verses, Satanic verses & verses to satisfy Muhammad? Are they there in the tablet as well, or only in the earthly edition of it? bunny


    Muslims don't even accept the Satanic verse's hadith many suspect it is a forgery.


    Abrogations? Verses like stonings? The ban on men & women who have been breast fed by the same woman from marrying?




    Abrogation is considered an improvement - as verses banning alcohol and freeing slaves could not have been relieved straight forwardly, as it was a complete shifting of a societies culture - so abrogation in Islam is not really seen as a "changing" of the verses but as a slow gradual proses of shifting the mentality of the society.

  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #9 - May 26, 2009, 05:55 PM

    This is a latter addition to the quran .Khalil had started a topic on this.

    Quote from: KhalilF

    [Sahih Bukhari: Book: 60, Hadith: 201]

    Narrated Zaid bin Thabit Al-Ansari: who was one of those who used to write the Divine Revelation: Abu Bakr sent for me after the (heavy) casualties among the warriors (of the battle) of Yamama (where a great number of Qurra' were killed). 'Umar was present with Abu Bakr who said, 'Umar has come to me and said, The people have suffered heavy casualties on the day of (the battle of) Yamama, and I am afraid that there will be more casualties among the Qurra' (those who know the Qur'an by heart) at other battle-fields, whereby a large part of the Qur'an may be lost, unless you collect it.

    Omar; one of the staunchest followers of Muhammad and the second appointed caliph of Islam is too doubtful over the same Quran which is promised to be guarded and preserved by god of Islam. How dare he?

    If Quran is there in heaven inscribed in an imperishable tablet(85:21]), again if Allah himself has taken oath of preserving his words(15:9), what makes Omar uneasy of losing a great part of it unless mortal human beings acted in time? The casualty at battle of Yamama sends shivers down Omar?s spine to urge Abu Bakr, the first Caliph to collect Quran lest a good part of it will be lost. How on earth it will be lost if it is there preserved in a heavenly tablet? Again, when Allah says it is his headache to preserve the words he revealed, what makes Omar worried of losing it? Is it because both Omar (and Abu Bakr who conceded to Omar?s plea;) were doubtful of Allah?s ability to guard his revelation?

    The only answer to this question is: Those verses are added in Quran later; not by Muhammad, but scribes who compiled the book.

    There are many verses of these kind in Quran betrays the text?s authenticity as the entirety of God?s words. Definitely Quran is not the entirely of god?s (Muhammad?s) words but there are many later additions in it. I was bringing out couple of verses from Quran which are stating the text is immutable for two reasons.

    1. It is preserved in a heavenly tablet.
    2. Allah himself says he will guard it.

    Then we see Omar and later Abu Bakr, (not obscure figures, but highly authoritative after Muhammad; for being the first elected caliphs of Islam. Besides, Muhammad himself regarded his contemporary as best among Muslims) expressing concern over the likelihood of text being lost irretrievably. If Quran; as these key figures knew was containing these two verses at that time, such a concern should not have cropped up in the first place. It leaves us with two possibilities to believe in:

    1. Both Omar and Abu Bakr were unaware of these verses and the message within.

    2. Or the Quran at that time was not containing these verses.

    It is not plausible to believe these eminent figures of Islam did not know of the contents of Quran. Besides, as the hadith states there were many out there who memorized the whole of Quran at that time this incident occurred. At least they could have come up with placations to eliminate the worries by just quoting these verses and affirming these key figures: ?Quran is not supposed to get lost by any chance because Allah is guarding it apart from it existing in a heavenly tablet" so the first possibility can be ruled out outright.

    Then we are left with the second which is denotative of corruption in the Quran.


    I also find the following verse surprising in context to heavenly tablet claim .


    5.3
    This day have those who reject faith given up all hope of your religion: yet fear them not but fear Me. This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion

    Which day is it talking about ?  If quran was already preserved in a heavenly tablet then how can this be the day(when muhhamad was getting revelations) be a day when it was perfected? IT should have been the day when quran was perfected in a heavenly tablet.Both these days cannot coincide because 5.3 is not the last verse of quran .There were verses after 5.3 so if both these days were same then it would mean that incomplete quran was put into a heavenly tablet.


    Nonetheless quran is exposed on 5.3 since it says the religion of Islam was perfected on a day . Can the religion of islam be perfect without the verses revealed after 5.3 ? The answer is no!!


    SO either ways 5.3 is wrong and also proves that these verses were added later by successors of Muhhamad.

  • Re: Quran in a Guarded Tablet, Abrogations & Missing Verses!
     Reply #10 - May 26, 2009, 05:58 PM

    Abrogation is considered an improvement - as verses banning alcohol and freeing slaves could not have been relieved straight forwardly, as it was a complete shifting of a societies culture - so abrogation in Islam is not really seen as a "changing" of the verses but as a slow gradual proses of shifting the mentality of the society.


    That absolutely wasn't what happened with abrogation, it was a shift in the circumstances Mo & his merry men found themselves in-the first part of the Quran was revealed when Mo was militarily weak & had managed to make few converts despite years of preaching in Mecca, obviously he couldn't overthrow the established order yet so verses preaching no compulsion were revealed.

    The verses of the sword, those advocating forcible conversion or jizya taxes & subjugation were revealed when Mo managed to gather an army to carry out his plans! evil

    If the Quran is in a guarded tablet in heaven, why would it alter according to the strength of Mo's army? These changes were suspected even in Mo's time, which is why he had to come up with the excuse of Satan &\or Allah revealing new stuff for testing believers or just because of Allah's whims.

    So which part was kept in a guarded tablet? The pre abrogation verses or the post abrogation verses?

    If I am telling someone the story of The Emperor's New Clothes   king & say that this story is preserved in so & so book, will my story change according to my whims & the interests of my audiences? Will parts of the story allegedly go missing like the breastfeeding verses did?

    Then my story won't match the book's story! Tongue

    Btw, there is simply no improvement in stuff advocating violence or jizya, as the post abrogated verses do-if anything they're worse than those which come before! parrot

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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