Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?

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- Shahid Raza
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Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
OP - December 09, 2009, 01:35 AM

Here's a discussion for you all to get stuck into.

Some of you have mentioned that according to surveys, Muslims applying for jobs are discriminated against by employers.

I want to delve into this further. If you put yourself in the employer's shoes then can you think of any instances where it would be understandable or justifiable to NOT employ a Muslim? Or where it would be understandable/justifiable to be weary of employing a Muslim?

Are Muslims more likely to be discriminated against in certain occupations compared to others? If so then what are these occupations?

Firstly I think it's important to highlight some of the various types of "Muslims" that we come across in society.

Here are the 3 main types of Muslims that I want to focus on:

1) A non-practising Muslim who is only Muslim by name, but doesn't act it at all. This could even include ex-Muslims.

2) A relatively practising Muslim who fasts/prays during Ramadhan (but not the rest of the year) and avoids alcohol.

3) A practising Muslim who keeps a beard (male) or wears a hijab (female) and prays 5 times a day and fasts during Ramadhan and avoids alcohol etc.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #1 - December 09, 2009, 01:39 AM

It's a very very complicated question. I mean it depends on so many factors. Type of industry, the individual employer, economic class of applicant, region, specific corporate culture etc etc.

And not to forget the overarching issue of qualifications, competency and skillset of the given Muslim individual.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #2 - December 09, 2009, 01:44 AM

The studies done have been double blind - i.e. candidates with very similar qualifications applying for jobs, some with Muslim names and some without. And in these studies, it has been shown you are more likely to be invited to an interview if you do not have a Muslim name.

That is clearly discrimination.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #3 - December 09, 2009, 01:45 AM

I think employers have a right to be wary sometimes. For instance, Muslims who take jobs in supermarkets and then refuse to do certain parts of the job (like selling alcohol, etc).

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #4 - December 09, 2009, 01:47 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on December 09, 2009, 01:44 AM
The studies done have been double blind - i.e. candidates with very similar qualifications applying for jobs, some with Muslim names and some without. And in these studies, it has been shown you are more likely to be invited to an interview if you do not have a Muslim name.

That is clearly discrimination.

Is it really related to the Muslim name? Or is it because that name is foreign sounding? Have they tested the same thing with Hindu names?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #5 - December 09, 2009, 01:51 AM

Here's a good example.

Would it be understandable for football managers to be weary of having practising Muslim players in their squad because they know that they'll be fasting for one month of the season?

Jose Mourinho had this problem with one of his Muslim players (Sulley Munatri):

http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/World-News/Jose-Mourinho-Sparks-Ramadan-Fasting-Row-Inter-Milan-Boss-Criticised-Over-Sulley-Muntari-Comments/Article/200908415369482?f=rss

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-1209182/Jose-Mourinhos-Ramadan-comments-fasting-Inter-Milan-star-Sulley-Muntari-angers-Muslim-leader.html?ITO=1490

Sully Muntari fasted during Ramadan, and this inevitably affected his performance. If Mourinho puts him on the bench because of this, or if he sells him because he doesn't want to have this problem every year during Ramadan, then is Muntari being "discriminated" against?

Or is Mourinho simply being a realist and only thinking for the benefit of his team (as he should be)?

I know what my answer is...

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #6 - December 09, 2009, 01:55 AM

What about Post Office employers who have to choose between a non-Muslim candidate and a practising Muslim candidate to cover to 3pm-9pm shift?

If they choose the non-Muslim over the Muslim, because they know that the practising Muslim will require more breaks to pray, then is the Muslim being "discriminated" against?

http://www.thisisbristol.co.uk/news/Muslim-Bristol-postal-workers-lose-case-prayer-breaks/article-402723-detail/article.html

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #7 - December 09, 2009, 01:59 AM

Another point to consider is how does an employer know whether a prospective Muslim employee practises his religion or not? How do you gauge that at the application or interview stage?

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #8 - December 09, 2009, 02:20 AM

No I don't think any of those cases are discrimination. Because issues like fasting, prayers directly effect job performance. In my view it's only discrimination if a person is being penalized for simply because of their ethnic heritage.

Its really hard to say whether a Muslim practices or not at face value (aside from obvious things).

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #9 - December 10, 2009, 06:28 PM

Quote from: Shahid Raza on December 09, 2009, 01:59 AM
Another point to consider is how does an employer know whether a prospective Muslim employee practises his religion or not? How do you gauge that at the application or interview stage?

You cant, thats why the name is crucial.

In France if you have an Arabic name you're toast. I think the situation (up until the terror attacks etc,) was completely different in england.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #10 - December 11, 2009, 02:25 AM

Quote from: Arab-Wannabe on December 10, 2009, 06:28 PM
You cant, thats why the name is crucial.

In France if you have an Arabic name you're toast. I think the situation (up until the terror attacks etc,) was completely different in england.

People get scared off in the same way that there was a Muslim parade, in a mixed neighbourhood in the UK, celebrating the birth of Muhammad, none of the signs were English so what was one supposed to assume? There is an anti-Western message but hidden using another language? that they're protesting for sharia law? all the people look like bloody misery without a single smile - are they protesting against the government?

Talk about people not getting with the bloody programme!

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #11 - December 11, 2009, 10:57 AM

When I was muslim, it was never an issue when it came to job interviews etc. On the contrary when the interviewer saw the beard, there was more of an interest. I was always asked questions about places I had been to and about discipline. The issue about prayers etc only came up after I had secured the job. There was never an issue with praying because I would make up the time. In the summer it wasn't a problem because I would only have to pray zuhr or jumma during working hours. In the winter I just made up the time.
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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #12 - December 11, 2009, 01:38 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 11, 2009, 10:57 AM
When I was muslim, it was never an issue when it came to job interviews etc. On the contrary when the interviewer saw the beard, there was more of an interest. I was always asked questions about places I had been to and about discipline. The issue about prayers etc only came up after I had secured the job. There was never an issue with praying because I would make up the time. In the summer it wasn't a problem because I would only have to pray zuhr or jumma during working hours. In the winter I just made up the time.

If one thing put me off Islam more than giving up alcohol it would be praying 5 times a day. Fuck that for a joke, I don't think Allah needs the tires pumped up on his ego-mobile every few hours by be grovelling and prostrating on the floor.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #13 - December 11, 2009, 01:55 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 11, 2009, 01:38 PM
If one thing put me off Islam more than giving up alcohol it would be praying 5 times a day. Fuck that for a joke, I don't think Allah needs the tires pumped up on his ego-mobile every few hours by be grovelling and prostrating on the floor.

To be honest, when I was a believer, I didn't have an issue with it. I followed islam to the letter and praying 5 times a day is classed as obligatory. If you are muslim then it's the very least you can do. According to the muslim it's a command from Allah and what he deserves as creator of the cosmos. I really never saw an issue with it when I was muslim.
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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #14 - December 11, 2009, 02:04 PM

Quote from: Omaar Khayaam on December 11, 2009, 01:55 PM
To be honest, when I was a believer, I didn't have an issue with it. I followed islam to the letter and praying 5 times a day is classed as obligatory. If you are muslim then it's the very least you can do. According to the muslim it's a command from Allah and what he deserves as creator of the cosmos. I really never saw an issue with it when I was muslim.

If the purpose of the five prayers per day is to remember God then why not adopt the calvanist view of the work ethic; God gave you life, life is measured in time, failure to use the time in a productive and enterprising manner is wasteful, wasting time is a sin - in otherwords, through working hard you remember God

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #15 - December 11, 2009, 03:57 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 11, 2009, 02:04 PM
If the purpose of the five prayers per day is to remember God then why not adopt the calvanist view of the work ethic; God gave you life, life is measured in time, failure to use the time in a productive and enterprising manner is wasteful, wasting time is a sin - in otherwords, through working hard you remember God

Sure, if you are a calvanist then why not? However, we are talking about muslims and the injunction for them is to pray five times a day, if you disagree (calling yourself a muslim) then the question remains, why are you still a muslim? There is a difference, if you agree that salah is part and parcel of islam but don't do it, then you are simply a lapsed and "sinful muslim". If you have something against praying five times a day, then you really need to ask whether you can call yourself muslim and why you object to praying five times a day?
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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #16 - December 11, 2009, 04:02 PM

well put

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #17 - December 11, 2009, 04:35 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 11, 2009, 01:38 PM
If one thing put me off Islam more than giving up alcohol it would be praying 5 times a day. Fuck that for a joke, I don't think Allah needs the tires pumped up on his ego-mobile every few hours by be grovelling and prostrating on the floor.

Each Salah lasts about 5 to 6 mins at the most. With 5 Sala'at, throughout the day, 25-30 minutes is spent on praying, during the whole day. Being asked to spend half an hour, on Religious duty, during the day, by your God. I don't see the big deal in that?

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #18 - December 11, 2009, 05:02 PM

Well its not really 5-6 minutes, because you don't consider the extraneous things you do for one prayer. Wudu, finding/travelling to the prayer spot. It at least 5 more minutes right there. So it's really around a minimum of 10 min for prayers, and perhaps more depending on how long you spend doing dua asking allah for that big titty girl in marriage. Prayers ended up a minimum of 15 min in practice for me a lot of the time. Also some prayers are longer than others.

So lets average the prayer to ~12min, 12X5 = 60 min. That's a whole hour a day to exalt an imaginary being!! In 60 min I can jerk off 4 times, play 3-4 rounds of a team death match in Modern Warfare 2, cook a lovely bacon sandwich, have a full body work out, or make sweet love to my blow up doll! 1 hr a day is 365 hours a years, if you live to 70 years of age, thats about 20,000hrs out of your LIFE!

Conclusion: Fuck salah.

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Re: Muslims discriminated by employers.. or not?
Reply #19 - December 11, 2009, 05:23 PM

I did consider Wudu and the extras, such as Tasbeeh/Du'a etc. Wudu lasts 2 to 3 minutes. And you don't have to renew it, for the next prayer if you're in the state of Wudu, so it usually lasts you for 2 prayers. You don't need to travel to the prayer spot, you can pray anywhere you are, as long as it's clean. So that doesn't generally consume time. Du'a isn't part of Salah. Yes it can last 1 hour, if one is to carry out all the sunnah's of Salah. But I was talking about Salah strictly, the fard part only, not Sunnah's.

If you count the amount of time you spend doing nothing, or some nonsense, then that would account to far more than 20,000hrs out of your life.

I'm not defending Salah. I don't think we should exaggerate and make it appear Salah is some kind of time consuming ritual. My response was to the fact Kaiwai stated it's one of the things that puts him off Islam. I don't think it should be a reason. There is far more things about Islam that puts off people, and I doubt Salah is one of them. As I explained, it doesn't take much time, and effort.

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