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Theme Changer

 Poll

  • Question: It's in the title ;P
  • Only Islamic schools should be closed down - 2 (6.9%)
  • All religious schools should be closed down - 24 (82.8%)
  • No religious schools should be closed down - 3 (10.3%)
  • Total Voters: 29

 Topic: Should religious schools be closed down?

 (Read 12862 times)
  • Previous page 1 2 3« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #60 - February 18, 2010, 02:14 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on February 18, 2010, 01:28 PM
    The system's fuckin broken, Kenan.

    You won't see me objecting to that, I was merely suggesting that things are not entirely black and white.

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 18, 2010, 01:32 PM
    Yes Kenan people in the UK do go bankrupt but not because they have cancer and don't have health insurance.

    Actually it is a bit more complicated than that. Some get bankrupt for trying to buy drugs or services that are not covered by NHS.

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 18, 2010, 01:32 PM
    But to say the average American has got it better than everybody else is just not true.

    True. I merely stated that the average American isn't considerably worse off either.

    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 18, 2010, 01:43 PM
    And Kenan if you're into anecdotes, please do watch this video

    Anecdotes prove exactly nothing, I am quite aware of that. I was simply trying to show a real life example from the US.

    One more thing. I am absolutely pro universal healthcare however I do realize that somebody eventually has to pay for it - in reality there is no such thing as free healthcare.

    Imagine a country where healthcare is theoretically completely free but in reality you cannot buy any medicines at the pharmacy because the manufacturers don't want to sell any
    because the state dictates the price of medicines which is below the actual cost. Where you have to bribe a doctor to actually get treatment that is "free". Where the equipment is old
    and cancerous patients have zero access to state-of-the-art drugs.









    Extremes are almost always bad and most importantly this is not an ideological question.

    I for one thing quite like the way healthcare is regulated in Switzerland (a friend of mine used to work there for a few years). For example: "As far as the compulsory health insurance is concerned, the insurance companies cannot set any conditions relating to age, sex or state of health for coverage. Although the level of premium can vary from one company to another, they must be identical within the same company for all insured persons of the same age group and region, regardless of sex or state of health. This does not apply to complementary insurance, where premiums are risk-based. The insured pays the insurance premium for the basic plan up to 8% of their personal income. If a premium is higher than this, then the government gives the insured a cash subsidy to pay for any additional premium."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Switzerland






  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #61 - February 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
    IA-- There are some downsides to living in Mass, especially in the greater Boston area. I lived in Boston for many years, still have friends there, and I can give you the good, bad and ugly of living there if you like.

    Kenan-- It's not fair to compare Cuba to Europe or the US. The fair comparison would be to contrast Cuba's quality and access to healthcare to countries with a similar GDP and level of development. And even that wouldn't be completely fair, because those countries haven't been embargoed for close to 60 years by their largest potential trading partner, which just happens to be the wealthiest, most productive and technologically-advanced country in the world, only 90 miles away.

    Okay, really do have to screw now. Later.
    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #62 - February 18, 2010, 02:47 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 18, 2010, 12:25 PM
    Just guaging your thoughts on the UK now that you have moved here

    All in all, I'm very happy that I moved here. IMO , it's better than any place in the Middle East. 

    The pros include generally nice and civil people, developed country, good infrastructure, good healthcare system, world-class education, outstanding equality laws, safe drivers and roads, perfect place to start a family and raise kids, sensible taxation code, and an adequate level of median income. It's suitably liberal for my taste. Also, it's a non-religious/atheist society and is becoming more and more so.

    The cons include depressing skylines, tiny ancient houses, dreary weather, growing anti-immigrant sentiment, binge drinking culture, not safe in European standards, police state, bureaucracy, poor community life, and no smokers' section in pubs.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #63 - February 18, 2010, 02:59 PM
    Yeah, I agree..  Cry
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 18, 2010, 02:47 PM
    poor community life

    what  do you think this boils down too?
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #64 - February 18, 2010, 03:01 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on February 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
    Kenan-- It's not fair to compare Cuba to Europe or the US. The fair comparison would be to contrast Cuba's quality and access to healthcare to countries with a similar GDP and level of development. And even that wouldn't be completely fair, because those countries haven't been embargoed for close to 60 years by their largest potential trading partner, which just happens to be the wealthiest, most productive and technologically-advanced country in the world, only 90 miles away.

    I do agree with what you are saying.
    The photos I posted actually do show level of healthcare an average Cuban is entitled to. I suppose you do know that excellent healthcare nevertheless is available on Cuba - but only for those who can pay. How awfully anti-Marxsist and very American of them.
    The text above the photos however is a reference to a certain European country where I briefly studied (courtesy of Open Society Institute - run by The Satan himself).
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #65 - February 18, 2010, 03:19 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on February 18, 2010, 02:59 PM
    what  do you think this boils down too?

    I don't know why this is or how it came to be.
    Back in Iraq our neighbors and us visited each other almost daily. We also had a lot of acquaintances that we visited regularly.
    Here in the UK most neighbors just say hello and that's about it. Even brothers don't visit each other often. I asked many Englishmen and they said that my observation is true.


    @Kenan, what's the deal with Soros and LaRouche? I can't distinguish between them. Which one is leftist and which one is a right-winger? or is it more complex than that?
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #66 - February 18, 2010, 03:36 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 18, 2010, 03:19 PM
    what's the deal with Soros and LaRouche? I can't distinguish between them. Which one is leftist and which one is a right-winger? or is it more complex than that?

    I am not an expert on either of them, perhaps Q will know more.
    But if I am not mistaken LaRouche used to be a Trockyst. Soros is not a classical right winger, his attitude is quite schizophrenic. He combines the most ruthless financial speculative exploitation with a counteragent - humanitarian concern about the catastrophic social consequences of an unbridled market economy. Half of his working day is dedicated to financial speculation and the other half to humanitarian activities that fight the effect of his own deeds. Some claim that today’s capitalism cannot sustain itself on its own. It needs extra economic charity to sustain the cycle.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #67 - February 19, 2010, 02:54 AM
    Quote from: Q-Man on February 18, 2010, 02:43 PM
    IA-- There are some downsides to living in Mass, especially in the greater Boston area. I lived in Boston for many years, still have friends there, and I can give you the good, bad and ugly of living there if you like.

    Well it's pointlessly early now. I will have to finish medical school first then take the US Medical Licensing Exam and score >90% in it. After that I will have to come to the US and apply for internship programs but only at hospitals that sponsor work visas for foreign doctors.
    And even if I accomplished all that, my choices will probably be limited and I will have to pick the best medical centre rather than the best city.

    But my dream is to get into an Oncology fellowship at Mass Gen  whistling2!!  So if this dream does come true I sure as hell hope we will still be int touch and I would greatly appreciate your advice.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #68 - February 19, 2010, 03:15 AM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on February 19, 2010, 02:54 AM
    But my dream is to get into an Oncology fellowship at Mass Gen  


    You dream big, bud.  Afro I gotta imagine any fellowship at MGH is among the most competitive in the world. If you get it, we're definitely gonna become fast friends-- not just because I think you're a cool guy and you'd only be 5-6 hours away, but because if you get that you'll be makin serious bank when you're done, and I can always use rich friends to mooch off of.
    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #69 - February 19, 2010, 03:31 AM
    I know it is a big dream ! My friend calls it "a monkey's daydream"  Cheesy
     But hey I know many Iraqis, Palestinians, and Egyptians who have made to top Medical Centers in the States. USC, Seattle, and UT-Austin IIRC.
    So if I work hard I can do it  cool2

    You know it's funny because ever since I got into medicine I started researching about practicing in the US but once we got our UK visas I just abandoned the whole thing after all the time, money, and effort I put into it. I mean just the books cost >$200.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #70 - February 19, 2010, 08:46 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on February 18, 2010, 03:36 PM
    I am not an expert on either of them, perhaps Q will know more.
    But if I am not mistaken LaRouche used to be a Trockyst. Soros is not a classical right winger, his attitude is quite schizophrenic. He combines the most ruthless financial speculative exploitation with a counteragent - humanitarian concern about the catastrophic social consequences of an unbridled market economy. Half of his working day is dedicated to financial speculation and the other half to humanitarian activities that fight the effect of his own deeds. Some claim that today’s capitalism cannot sustain itself on its own. It needs extra economic charity to sustain the cycle.


    Yeah, Soros made a lot more sense in the Cold War, when you could just class him as a staunch Anti-Communist.

    LaRouche-- former Trot who organized his followers to beat up other Trots. Now often considered a crypto-fascist and anti-Semite by most of the left. But I think he's just plain crazy. Dude thinks the British royalty was behind the Oklahoma City Bombing. He's so crazy as to be unclassifiable on a traditional left-right scale.
    fuck you
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #71 - February 19, 2010, 10:58 PM
    I'm torn between "Only Islamic schools should be closed down" and "All ..." because I do think the Christian ones are actually good and productive. Though, even they might be running out of time in terms of acceptance and more people evolve away from having faith.
    Hear ye -->> DONATE TO CEMB

    Relativism | Cognitive dissonance | Cognitive biases | Memeplex | Consequentialism
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #72 - February 20, 2010, 12:57 AM
    This is my first post here for a while. Quite a while, in fact.

    Anywho, the issue of religious schools receiving tax-payer money is an interesting one. Although many will consider the religious "brainwashing" of children immoral, exploitative et cetera, there is a need for the state - secular or otherwise - to cater for the needs of her citizens. If there is a demand, amongst TAX PAYING citizens, for religous schools, then I see no reason why these schools cannot be funded by the state.

    Just as an additional point, the oft-repeated atheist statement that "Children should not be brainwashed into believing in God by parents/teachers etc" is, I believe, utter tosh. Children have, and always will be influenced by their seniors. I'm sure atheist parents condition (or brainwash) their children into following a naturalistic path through life, just as Muslim and Christian parents encourage (or brainwash) their children into following Islam and Christianity respectively.

    Good to be back,

    Hassan1 :-)
     

    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #73 - February 20, 2010, 01:54 AM
    You're not Hassan!
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #74 - February 20, 2010, 03:43 AM
    The sad part is that apart from private schooling, most government sanctioned education is pathetic. Religious schools would go in the bin, but so would most other schools if I was allowed to set the curriculum and hand-pick the teachers.
    Education needs a revamp, religious schools are just the beginning of the nonsense.
    At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
    Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
    Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #75 - February 20, 2010, 09:06 AM
    Quote from: Hassan1 on February 20, 2010, 12:57 AM
    Just as an additional point, the oft-repeated atheist statement that "Children should not be brainwashed into believing in God by parents/teachers etc" is, I believe, utter tosh. Children have, and always will be influenced by their seniors. I'm sure atheist parents condition (or brainwash) their children into following a naturalistic path through life, just as Muslim and Christian parents encourage (or brainwash) their children into following Islam and Christianity respectively.

    Imagine living in a society where parents realize that they do not own their children but are in fact just guardians of "their" children. A society where parents realize that "their" children have an unalienable right to grow up free form religious (or any other kind) superstition. A society where parents realize that happiness of "their" children is more important than religious indoctrination. A society where parents place "their" children above some Bronze Age superstition dreamed up by alleged prophets hundreds or even thousands of years ago.
    A society where parents take a view that "their" children should be taught not what to think but rather how to think. The important point is that it should be children's privilege to decide what to think and not their parent’s privilege to impose it on them.
    When children are young and in need of guidance truly moral guardianship shows itself in an honest attempt what children would choose for themselves if they were old enough to do so.
    Sadly a lot of parents love some Bronze Age nonsense more then they love "their" children.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #76 - February 20, 2010, 09:30 AM
    So do you propose legislation preventing parents from teaching children to believe in x, y, z religious idea? How about an even older concept and bronze age myth, actually it's even older than the bronze age. Its this irrational thing we teach our kids not to hurt other kids (well most parents do  Cheesy). That's an irrational and ancient belief too.

    Lets face it, you can accuse parents of mental abuse.. sure, but seriously we're not going to stop having parents teach kids irrational things. All our moral and ethical values are.. at the core.. irrational. There is no good reason not to murder a fellow human being if it benefits you and you can get away. It's my irrational attachment to empathy and me clinging to the ancient bronze age concept of compassion that my parents brainwashed me with that stop me from even considering such acts.

    Kids believe what their parents tell them, because its their parents. Reason and critical thinking is something they pick up much later.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #77 - February 20, 2010, 09:37 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 20, 2010, 09:30 AM
    So do you propose legislation preventing parents from teaching children to believe in x, y, z religious idea?

    No not at all. I am not a totalitarian fascist you know. I merely wish that more parents would reach intellectual and mental maturity and realize on their own that brainwashing children in any form is a bad idea. You know: teaching children not what to think but rather how to think.
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #78 - February 20, 2010, 09:40 AM
    I agree. But I'm sure many militant atheists would love to legislate anti-religious rules under "child abuse" laws. I know I would. But then again I'm a totalitarian fascist, so whaddya expect.

    It really is child abuse, especially concepts like hell. But it's an evil free societies will have to put up with. But a totalitarian society run under moi would pwn religious n00bs parents real quick. Fuck em.

    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #79 - February 20, 2010, 09:45 AM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 20, 2010, 09:30 AM
    There is no good reason not to murder a fellow human being if it benefits you and you can get away. It's my irrational attachment to empathy and me clinging to the ancient bronze age concept of compassion that my parents brainwashed me with that stop me from even considering such acts.

    Actually you might be wrong. It is quite possible that altruistic behavior is completely rational:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6rgWzYRXiI
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #80 - February 20, 2010, 09:48 AM
    A behaviour having rational reasons for their existence (ie natural selection of cooperative species) is not the same as doing something for rational reasons. An overwhelming majority of us do not engage in compassionate or empathetic behavior because of well thought out reasons. We do it because it's either in our nature, or we've been brainwashed.. usually both. At the end of the day, all our good and nice acts are rooted in some sort of irrationality and indoctrination.

    There is zero rational reasons for any of us to donate $100 to Haiti.. yet we do.
    Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #81 - February 20, 2010, 09:57 AM
    Ja Herr Obersturmführer !!!
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #82 - February 20, 2010, 04:21 PM
    Quote from: Kenan on February 20, 2010, 09:06 AM
    Imagine living in a society where parents realize that they do not own their children but are in fact just guardians of "their" children. A society where parents realize that "their" children have an unalienable right to grow up free form religious (or any other kind) superstition. A society where parents realize that happiness of "their" children is more important than religious indoctrination.


    With all due respect Kenan, this argument doesn't really stand to any scrutiny. It assumes 2 things:

    1. That religious parents put the hapiness of their children over 'indoctrination'.
    2. That the teaching of religion to children necessarily entails an unhappy childhood.

    Neither is the case.

    Quote
    A society where parents take a view that "their" children should be taught not what to think but rather how to think. The important point is that it should be children's privilege to decide what to think and not their parent’s privilege to impose it on them.


    This is a better argument, but still flawed. What mode of thinking is best? Will you encourage, for instance, a Dawkins-esque approach whereby you teach children to seek naturalistic evidence for belief systems? Can such a mode of thinking bring about well-founded positions in, say, ethics?
    ...nor shall they encompass aught of His knowledge, except as He willeth...
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #83 - February 20, 2010, 04:56 PM
    Quote from: Iblis on February 20, 2010, 01:54 AM
    You're not Hassan!


    Believe it or not there is more than one person called Hassan in this world  grin12
  • Re: Should religious schools be closed down?
     Reply #84 - February 20, 2010, 07:25 PM
    Madras's in Bangladesh mostly takes care of orphaned children. It'd be sad to see them all closed down.
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