Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof

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Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
OP - December 06, 2009, 08:16 PM

I was just wondering, that it seems Islam provides too little by way of cultural stuff that other people accept by free choice, rather than coercion.

I mean, so many non Western women(& it seems a majority of men), all over Japan, China, much of Africa & India, even Islamic nations like Turkey, Tunisia, streets of Dhaka wear western clothes, extremely few, if any have adopted Islamic hijab & niqab. Christian weddings are popular amongst all Japanese, although the overwhelming majority of Japanese are Shinto-Buddhists. Japanese Anime & manga comics, are popular amongst many people globally, & the Korean cultural wave found many takers globally, including in Iran. Indian movies and soaps are very popular in Pakistan & Bangladesh, & the Afghan Government had to ban Indian soaps on the charge that it was an insidious attempt to "spread Hinduism." Yoga finds many takers globally.

African American music like jazz finds global takers, Latin American dances like salsa & hip hop do too, Morocco held protests about Latin American dances.

Christian festivals like Christmas are celebrated by plenty of non Christians, I've seen grand celebrations in India, Singapore etc, few non Muslims celebrate Eid.

Islam, compared to its population size, has few exportable cultural stuff, & I don't see many things catching on, I mean, I don't think that the world is going to take to hijab en masse, & exportable stuff like belly dancing is branded haram by Sheikhs.

This is imo, one reason for Islamic insecurity, that the culture(and Islamic culture is a huge part of the religion) they aspired to make global is finding so few takers, & so many rejectionists!

So we have all these foolish fatwas against Picachu, against yoga etc, in a desperate attempt to stop Muslims themselves ditching Islamic culture.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #1 - December 06, 2009, 08:18 PM

Three course meals and restaurants.

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #2 - December 06, 2009, 08:20 PM

Well, I don't about you guys but I enjoy washing up with sand whenever the water pipes burst in our building.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #3 - December 06, 2009, 08:20 PM

Short hair for men - another cultural export of Islamic culture.

Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #4 - December 06, 2009, 08:51 PM

Islam doesn't really have any cultural 'stuff' to export to begin with. Neither does Christianity. Those things you just mentioned are not Christian cultural elements but European/white cultural exports.

Muslims are still part of whatever their native culture was. Arabian stuff is still considered quite exotic and cool in the west though the terrorism bit has not helped. For "Muslim" stuff you need to look at the specific cultures... you know stuff like persian carpets, hookahs, arabic calligraphy, belly dancing etc etc. Ie in the western mind "Muslim stuff" basically is a reference to Turkish, Arab and Persian cultural elements.

Islam is a religious ideology not a culture.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #5 - December 06, 2009, 09:09 PM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 06, 2009, 08:51 PM
Islam doesn't really have any cultural 'stuff' to export to begin with. Neither does Christianity. Those things you just mentioned are not Christian cultural elements but European/white cultural exports.

Muslims are still part of whatever their native culture was. Arabian stuff is still considered quite exotic and cool in the west though the terrorism bit has not helped. For "Muslim" stuff you need to look at the specific cultures... you know stuff like persian carpets, hookahs, arabic calligraphy, belly dancing etc etc. Ie in the western mind "Muslim stuff" basically is a reference to Turkish, Arab and Persian cultural elements.

Islam is a religious ideology not a culture.

Agree, but Muslims & Mullahs often preach against the Western\Indian\any other cultural import as "unislamic", they fear & loathe Westernization as much as Christianization.

When they preach about preserving their faith, they simultaneously preach the dangers of other "cultures" & its ill effects.

Islam is something all encompassing in its religious ideology, it does seek to have a particular culture, at least the Arab founders of Islam do seek to export a particular "culture" along with the faith.

Which is why they not only convert people to Islam, they also bring stuff like hijab & niqab into regions like much of India,all of Bangladesh & South East Asia, whose weather is completely inappropriate for a burkha, & people went about half nude in these places pre Islam.

Other "cultures" & cultural imports today are slowly washing away Islamic culture, which is what devout Mullahs fear. So the ban on Western clothes, Indian movies etc.

Hijab & niqab are unlikely to survive the competition against jeans & miniskirts, strict gender segregation will in all probability give way in future to free interaction of the sexes.

The Arab culture is unlikely to find that many takers in this millennia, so even if Islam does survive, stuff like headscarves will probably not.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #6 - December 06, 2009, 09:15 PM

Yeah no doubt. But would you say something like a "Salwar Kameez" is a part of Muslim culture? Or just Indian culture?

I think it's both. Hijab, Niqab are not really cultural clothings but ideologically oriented. Hijab for example arose in the 80s after the Iranian revolution. It's a modern non-cultural expression of the resurgence of Islam from the 70s onwards.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #7 - December 06, 2009, 11:21 PM

Quote from: aliadiere on December 06, 2009, 08:20 PM
Short hair for men - another cultural export of Islamic culture.

Meh, doesn't quite work given that there is a resurgence in long hair on guys. In the case of New Zealand it is born out of the large Asian (Chinese, Thai, Japanese etc) immigration.

Quote from: Kafirist on December 06, 2009, 08:51 PM
Islam doesn't really have any cultural 'stuff' to export to begin with. Neither does Christianity. Those things you just mentioned are not Christian cultural elements but European/white cultural exports.

Muslims are still part of whatever their native culture was. Arabian stuff is still considered quite exotic and cool in the west though the terrorism bit has not helped. For "Muslim" stuff you need to look at the specific cultures... you know stuff like persian carpets, hookahs, arabic calligraphy, belly dancing etc etc. Ie in the western mind "Muslim stuff" basically is a reference to Turkish, Arab and Persian cultural elements.

Islam is a religious ideology not a culture.

How so? Secularism is a uniquely Christian concept to solve a uniquely European problem. Christmas was a pagan festival repackaged as Christian but it is Christian none the less - yes, you can see nativity scenes around the middle east with the three wise men etc.

The reason why you don't see 'many Islamic things' is because the religion is fucking miserable. Name me some events during the year from Islam that isn't pain and fucking misery. You can't drink, you can't dance, you can't listen to music - what the fuck is a person supposed to do? sit in the corner reading the Qur'an with a bag of fucking peanuts? wow! how fucking exciting!

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #8 - December 06, 2009, 11:28 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 06, 2009, 11:21 PM
Meh, doesn't quite work given that there is a resurgence in long hair on guys. In the case of New Zealand it is born out of the large Asian (Chinese, Thai, Japanese etc) immigration.

How so? Secularism is a uniquely Christian concept to solve a uniquely European problem. Christmas was a pagan festival repackaged as Christian but it is Christian none the less - yes, you can see nativity scenes around the middle east with the three wise men etc.

The reason why you don't see 'many Islamic things' is because the religion is fucking miserable. Name me some events during the year from Islam that isn't pain and fucking misery. You can't drink, you can't dance, you can't listen to music - what the fuck is a person supposed to do? sit in the corner reading the Qur'an with a bag of fucking peanuts? wow! how fucking exciting!

True. But you have to understand, when Sheikhs and Imams say that Muslims can lots of fun and still be a practicing Muslim, what they mean by fun is not what we think it is. When sheikhs and Imams say muslims can have fun, its usually reading Qur'an, talking about Islam, and doing religious things and studying Tajweed (how to recite Qur'an). Thats their definition of fun. It sucks I know. I remember going on a website and it showed like 100 questions asking is this and that halaal or haraam, and the sheikh pretty much labeled EVERYTHING as haraam. When you practice Islam to the core, almost everything is forbidden or mukruh (not haraam, but best not to do it). Not to mention jerking off is haraam, now THAT sucks. Kinda explains why they are uptight

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #9 - December 06, 2009, 11:30 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 06, 2009, 11:21 PM
what the fuck is a person supposed to do? sit in the corner reading the Qur'an with a bag of fucking peanuts? wow! how fucking exciting!

sorry, but that is a haram. Eating whilst reading the Quran, would mean you lose your wudu, and thus invalidate and make the reading of the Quran haram.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #10 - December 07, 2009, 12:24 AM

Quote from: IsLame on December 06, 2009, 11:30 PM
sorry, but that is a haram. Eating whilst reading the Quran, would mean you lose your wudu, and thus invalidate and make the reading of the Quran haram.

Wait, so eating invalidates wudu? Strange, I thought your wudu is invalid if you piss, shit, cum, sleep or say bad language only?

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #11 - December 07, 2009, 01:11 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 07, 2009, 12:24 AM
Wait, so eating invalidates wudu? Strange, I thought your wudu is invalid if you piss, shit, cum, sleep or say bad language only?

It doesn't invalidate the wudu, but it would be disrespectful to the Qur'an or something. I think you just need to rinse your mouth if you eat something and then have to pray, to avoid 'tasting' something while praying.

........Why am I even taking the time to say this

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #12 - December 07, 2009, 01:27 AM

Haha, wudu is pretty much symbolic of how stupid Islam and is. I mean what if I don't wash exactly 3 times behind my ears? What if 2 times? Is Allah gonna not accept my prayers? Why does he care so much how many times I pour water down my wrists? Fucking OCD or something Allah.

Even as a Muslim I could never quite wrap my head around why on earth I was putting my feet in the fucking public washrooms sink!

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #13 - December 07, 2009, 01:43 AM

Does eating cooked food nullify one's wudu?

I am referring to the Hadith which says: Anything touched by fire voids wudu. If not then how do you explain this and many other hadiths which show that this is the case?

According to the majority school of thoughts (Madhaahib), anything prepared by fire does not nullify Wudhu based on many other Ahaadith wherein it is sated that Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) ate cooked meat and performed Salaat without repeating his Wudhu.

Among other answers given by the Muhadditheen for the Hadith referred by you, one is, it refers to the literal Wudhu which means rinsing the mouth.
After eating meat, for example, one should rinse his mouth. Another answer is that the Hadith has been abrogated. However, since Imaam Ahmad is of the view that the Wudhu breaks, it is Mustahabb to renew one's Wudhu after eating cooked food.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #14 - December 07, 2009, 01:43 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 07, 2009, 01:27 AM
Haha, wudu is pretty much symbolic of how stupid Islam and is. I mean what if I don't wash exactly 3 times behind my ears? What if 2 times? Is Allah gonna not accept my prayers? Why does he care so much how many times I pour water down my wrists? Fucking OCD or something Allah.

Even as a Muslim I could never quite wrap my head around why on earth I was putting my feet in the fucking public washrooms sink!

The fact that Muslims don't even realise just how fucking stupid it is, it is systematic of what is wrong with their whole culture. The lack of critical thinking in so many of these cultures demonstrates itself so many times it isn't funny.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #15 - December 07, 2009, 06:27 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 06, 2009, 09:15 PM
Yeah no doubt. But would you say something like a "Salwar Kameez" is a part of Muslim culture? Or just Indian culture?

I think it's both. Hijab, Niqab are not really cultural clothings but ideologically oriented. Hijab for example arose in the 80s after the Iranian revolution. It's a modern non-cultural expression of the resurgence of Islam from the 70s onwards.

Salwaar kameez is both Muslim & Indian culture, or rather hybrid culture, just like kaftaan is both Islamic & North African culture.

But sleeveless salwaar kameez with noodle straps, or other revealing salwaar kameez is contrary to the values Islam seeks to promote.

It is this puritanical Islamic ideology which is washed away by various other cultural pressures, which makes the mullahs tense.

My mother is Bohra Muslim, in the Bohra community, I've seen grandmoms wear the colorful Bohra burkha, moms wear salwaar kameez, their daughters my age wear jeans, shorts & skirts.

The more puritanical families send girls only to all girls schools, the girls come in burkhas, take it off on the school doorstep, & again put in on before going home, but I know many who hate, simply HATE the burkha.

My grandpa told us that the Mullah was preaching the importance of sticking to the burkha & telling the mosque goers that they should try to teach their girls to always wear the burkha outside the house.

Similar movements have happened in South East Asia, in places of Indonesia like Aceh, or parts of Malaysia, the hijab has been made compulsory.

These expressions of Islam imo, are doomed to extinction.

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #16 - December 07, 2009, 06:32 AM

Quote from: Rashna on December 07, 2009, 06:27 AM
Salwaar kameez is both Muslim & Indian culture, or rather hybrid culture, just like kaftaan is both Islamic & North African culture.

But sleeveless salwaar kameez with noodle straps, or other revealing salwaar kameez is contrary to the values Islam seeks to promote.

It is this puritanical Islamic ideology which is washed away by various other cultural pressures, which makes the mullahs tense.

My mother is Bohra Muslim, in the Bohra community, I've seen grandmoms wear the colorful Bohra burkha, moms wear salwaar kameez, their daughters my age wear jeans, shorts & skirts.

The more puritanical families send girls only to all girls schools, the girls come in burkhas, take it off on the school doorstep, & again put in on before going home, but I know many who hate, simply HATE the burkha.

My grandpa told us that the Mullah was preaching the importance of sticking to the burkha & telling the mosque goers that they should try to teach their girls to always wear the burkha outside the house.

Similar movements have happened in South East Asia, in places of Indonesia like Aceh, or parts of Malaysia, the hijab has been made compulsory.

These expressions of Islam imo, are doomed to extinction.

Why don't the locals lynch the Mullah? Put the Mullah's in their place - they serve the community, they don't rule the community.

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #17 - December 07, 2009, 06:32 AM

There is a fatwa against Pikachu? God damn it, now they've gone to far

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Re: Islam & Cultural exports or lack thereof
Reply #18 - December 07, 2009, 06:34 AM

Can't argue with that. That kind of shit is against the human spirit, period.

Mullah's don't need to be lynched they need to be ignored and ridiculed until they either crawl under a rock and die or they shave those ugly beards off and look like a decent human being.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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