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Theme Changer

 Topic: Taqiya?

 (Read 5501 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Taqiya?
     OP - February 05, 2010, 08:03 AM

    I really need to know what that is. I never heard of it untill I joined COEM forums. What is the difference between practicing Taqyia and being an apologist?

    Am all ears!

    ...
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #1 - February 05, 2010, 08:15 AM

    I wondered too, but was afraid to ask, i'm not really that informed in Islamic stuff actually so I do feel rather silly at times...



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #2 - February 05, 2010, 08:29 AM

    As I understand it, Taqiyya is the idea that under threat of death/severe harm, Muslims were allowed to "pretend" that they were not Muslims in order to save their lives. This was another leftover war/defense tactic that was practiced/promoted in early Islamic history. In particular, I've heard of Shias practicing it to escape/avoid persecution by other Muslims.

    Nowadays, Taqiyya (as a religious concept) is probably not practiced all that much, we are living in the "age of information" and it's not that easy to hide one's background, activities, affiliations etc (from state/intelligence agents that is).

    On the other hand, there are many other ways of pretending to be someone you're not, like internet anonymity, that are practiced by all kinds of peoples. So, the Taqiyya label is probably mostly used as a tactic by those non-Muslims with xenophobic tendencies (fear/hatred of "foreign" people). The flip-side of it is when Muslims (and others) for example, assume all people of Jewish descent (and even those who are not) are part of a giant, worldwide, zionist conspiracy to rule the world (and sometimes beyond, see: David Icke wacko ) Or when people assume that black people are all inherently criminal.

    This is not to say that it could not be practiced today. I just think most of the time, it's used as an easy label to irrationally discredit certain people.

    Islamic Apologists are those who try and make excuses for Islam's and Muslims' BS.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #3 - February 05, 2010, 08:49 AM

    Can this part in bold be considered to be Taqiya?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ka%27b_ibn_al-Ashraf

    Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf

    Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf (Arabic: كعب بن الاشرف‎)(d. 624) was a chief of the Jewish tribe of Banu Nadir and a poet, who was assassinated by an order of Muhammad. Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf was born to an Jewish-Arab mother from the Banu Nadir tribe and a Muslim-Arab father, and he followed his mother's religion.[1][2]

    According to Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b because the latter "had gone to Mecca after Badr and provoked Quraysh to fight the prophet. He also composed verses in which he bewailed the victims of Quraysh who had been killed at Badr. Shortly afterwards he returned to Medina and composed amatory verses of an insulting nature about the Muslim women."[3] Other historiographical sources state that the reason for killing of Ka'b was that he had plotted with a group of Jews to kill Muhammad. The writings of the later commentators such as al-Zamakhshari, al-Tabarsi, al-Razi and al-Baydawi provide another distinct report according to which Ka'b was killed because Gabriel had informed Muhammad about a treaty signed by himself and Aba Sufyan creating an alliance between the Quraysh and forty Jews against Muhammad during Ka'b's visit to Mecca (According to Professor Uri Rubin, some allusions to the existence of an anti-muslim treaty between Quraysh and Ibn al-Ashraf may be found in the earlier sources).[3]
    [edit] Interactions with Muhammad

    Ka'b was infuriated at Muhammad's execution of a number of Meccan notables of the Quraysh tribe who had been captured after the Muslim victory in the Battle of Badr in March 624.[1] The traditional Muslim biography of Muhammad reports Ka'b as saying "...if Muhammad has indeed struck down those people, then it were better to be buried in the earth than to walk upon it!"[4]

    Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf rode to the Quraish at Mecca, in order to lament the loss at Badr and to incite them to take up arms to regain lost honour, noting the statement of Muhammad: "He (Ka'b) has openly assumed enmity to us and speaks evil of us and he has gone over to the polytheists (who were at war with Muslims) and has made them gather against us for fighting". Some sources suggest that during his visit to Mecca, Ka'b concluded a treaty with Abu Sufyan, stipulating cooperation between the Quraysh and Jews against Muhammad.[3]

    Upon returning to Medina, Ka'b also wrote erotic poetry about Muslim women, which Muhammad and his followers found offensive.[1][4]

    Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b, and Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others, including a foster-brother of Ka'b. By pretending to have turned against Muhammad, they enticed Ka'b out of his fortress on a moonlight night[1] for what was supposed to be negotiations of Ka'b's sale of food to them. After Ka'b walked out of his fortress to meet Muhammad ibn Maslama and his companions, they attacked Ka'b and killed him in spite of his vigorous resistance.[5][6]


    A number of reasons are given for the assassination. One reason is that al-Ashraf had tried to provoke the Quraysh against Muhammad, and later composed verses insulting Muslim women. Another reason is his attempt to assassinate Muhammad.[3] Finally, Muhammad was acting in accordance with the norms of the Arab society of that period which demanded retaliation for a slight to a group's honor.[2]

    The Jews were terrified at the assassination of Ka'b ibn al-Ashraf, and as a Muslim biographer of Muhammad put it "...there was not a Jew who did not fear for his life".[7] Shortly after the killing of Ka'b, Muhammad attacked Banu Nadir and expelled them from Medina.[8]
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #4 - February 05, 2010, 09:01 AM

    Oh boy, Mo was really busy exterminating Jews! I wonder why Hitler did not embrace Islam?

    ...
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #5 - February 05, 2010, 09:06 AM

    Because Hitler did not want to answer to Mo. Nor have his people answer to Mo. They should answer to Hitler and the Reich. But Hitler liked Islam.
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #6 - February 05, 2010, 09:13 AM

    Because Hitler did not want to answer to Mo. Nor have his people answer to Mo. They should answer to Hitler and the Reich. But Hitler liked Islam.

    There was that quotation from Hitler - it seems that he saw religion as a useful tool for influencing people and felt that Islam was more aggressive and thus provide more support to his ideology.
    He did think in racial/national lines though - so he could never actually accept Islam fully.
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #7 - February 05, 2010, 09:14 AM

    Can this part in bold be considered to be Taqiya?

    Muhammad called upon his followers to kill Ka'b, and Muhammad ibn Maslama offered his services, collecting four others, including a foster-brother of Ka'b. By pretending to have turned against Muhammad, they enticed Ka'b out of his fortress on a moonlight night[1] for what was supposed to be negotiations of Ka'b's sale of food to them. After Ka'b walked out of his fortress to meet Muhammad ibn Maslama and his companions, they attacked Ka'b and killed him in spite of his vigorous resistance.[5][6]



    Probably... it's basically related to the ideas of stealth/psychological warfare. It's a big bad word related to Islam because it's been part of the hadiths and such, but the same tactics have been used by pretty much every other group/culture of humans probably since the development of language and even hunter-gatherer times, during war or conflict.

    Muslims have been accused of using Taqiyya, I think, primarily because (a) xenophobia has always existed among certain segments of all societies and (b) there's a very real fear of death by Islam for both Muslims and non-Muslims (and ex-Muslims) in today's world, which makes it hard sometimes to take Muslims or their apologists at face value.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #8 - February 05, 2010, 09:17 AM

    Because Hitler did not want to answer to Mo. Nor have his people answer to Mo. They should answer to Hitler and the Reich. But Hitler liked Islam.


    I found this;



    ...
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #9 - February 05, 2010, 09:19 AM

    Yeah but many countries cooperated with Hitler. It just that religious people should have known better. Especially people from the Most Peaceful Religion, the people that keep parroting ?Islam means Peace?.
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #10 - February 05, 2010, 09:27 AM

    Oh and looking at the thread to which I think you're referring, RIBS, I do not think that Taqiyya is being used in its proper sense. I'd say that e.g. those Muslims who claim that terrorism is "for defense only" in Islam are not practicing Taqiyya, they're just being apologists. That is: they're making an excuse for Islam's bullshit. That's not the same as pretending to not be Muslim (or a certain Muslim sect) just to get by. But since Taqiyya is linguistically more glamorous, and exotic-sounding and therefore scary for xenophobes, it's usually conflated with just plain old apologetics (especially by people who are xenophobic to begin with).

    Simple formula: If someone says they are Muslim (speaking to non-Muslims), they are not practicing Taqiyya. They might be ill-informed, brainwashed, apologetic, tribalistically-loyal, in denial or just stupid. But by definition they are not doing Taqiyya. Taqiyya is like being "in the closet"... you can't be out and open and talking about being LGBT and be in the closet. They're mutually exclusive. Anybody who doesn't get that is showing their own ignorance about basic definitions of words.

    "Blessed are they who can laugh at themselves, for they shall never cease to be amused."
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #11 - February 05, 2010, 04:15 PM

    Taqiya means deliberate and determined deception, knowing full well the truth. Very few Muslims are deliberately deceptive, in fact most muslims are precisely the opposite - they simply do not know when to shut their mouths, just look at MEMRI. These people are honest as can be.

    If anything, Muslims *need* more Taqiyya, because that would show a level of sophistication instead of outright barbarism and "Behead those who insult Islam" placards.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #12 - February 05, 2010, 04:20 PM

    And practically every lobbying or interest group practices Taqiyya or some form. AIPAC, the Christian Evangelicals, Scientologists, Mormons, Democrats, Republicans, communists, capitalists etc all practice deception and misrepresent their true and more sinister goals to the public all the time. Singling out Muslims, as if they invented the concept of deception just reveals your own bigotry than anything about Muslims.

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #13 - February 05, 2010, 04:24 PM

    And practically every lobbying or interest group practices Taqiyya or some form. AIPAC, the Christian Evangelicals, Scientologists, Mormons, Democrats, Republicans, communists, capitalists etc all practice deception and misrepresent their true and more sinister goals to the public all the time. Singling out Muslims, as if they invented the concept of deception just reveals your own bigotry than anything about Muslims.


    Taqiya means deliberate and determined deception, knowing full well the truth. Very few Muslims are deliberately deceptive, in fact most muslims are precisely the opposite - they simply do not know when to shut their mouths, just look at MEMRI. These people are honest as can be.

    If anything, Muslims *need* more Taqiyya, because that would show a level of sophistication instead of outright barbarism and "Death to those who behead Islam" placards.


    POTM
  • Re: Taqiya?
     Reply #14 - February 05, 2010, 04:35 PM

    LOL

    I just realised that I wrote "Death to those who behead Islam" when i meant to say "Behead those who insult Islam".  Cheesy Cheesy

    Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.

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