What Muhammad Actually Believed

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What Muhammad Actually Believed
OP - June 01, 2010, 10:57 PM

Hi everyone,

I felt the urge to post this poll after reading this passage from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Muhammad :

William Montgomery Watt (Historian of Islam) states:

“ Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men of strong and upright character like Abu-Bakr and 'Umar ? ... There is thus a strong case for holding that Muhammad was sincere. If in some respects he was mistaken, his mistakes were not due to deliberate lying or imposture[77] ....the important point is that the message was not the product of Muhammad's conscious mind. He believed that he could easily distinguish between his own thinking and these revelations. His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion. The further question, however, whether the messages came from Muhammad's unconscious, or the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source, is beyond the competence of the historian.[78] ”

It's important to distinguish between sincerity and validity for the sake of this poll of course.

Thanks in advance!

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #1 - June 01, 2010, 11:12 PM

This William character seems to know his stuff - interesting pov, it made me come off the fence after reading what he had to say

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #2 - June 01, 2010, 11:18 PM

My somewhat superficial impression is that he knew quite well that he was only talking for himself, and no God.

I refer you to the circumstances around how 66:1-2 was revealed.

The alleged prophet Mohammed was at his wife Hafsa's and she caught him having sexual relations with the
beautiful coptic slave Maria. Hafsa was angry with him, and Mohammed swoar an oath that he would not touch her again.
However, Hafsa soon found him having sex with her again in which the alleged prophet of Islam had two new revelations.

Quote
Sahih International
O Prophet, why do you prohibit [yourself from] what Allah has made lawful for you, seeking the approval of your wives? And Allah is Forgiving and Merciful.
Pickthall
O Prophet! Why bannest thou that which Allah hath made lawful for thee, seeking to please thy wives? And Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali
O Prophet! Why holdest thou to be forbidden that which Allah has made lawful to thee? Thou seekest to please thy consorts. But Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Sahih International
Allah has already ordained for you [Muslims] the dissolution of your oaths. And Allah is your protector, and He is the Knowing, the Wise.
Pickthall
Allah hath made lawful for you (Muslims) absolution from your oaths (of such a kind), and Allah is your Protector. He is the Knower, the Wise.
Yusuf Ali
Allah has already ordained for you, (O men), the dissolution of your oaths (in some cases): and Allah is your Protector, and He is Full of Knowledge and Wisdom.

No one can be quite that self deceiving. I think this illustrates pretty well he was cynically using Allah to achieve his own wants and wishes.

Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #3 - June 01, 2010, 11:18 PM

Yes, I think Muhammad genuinely believed he was getting revelations from God - and genuinely believed he was a prophet.

He is not the first to think God spoke to him - and he wont be the last.

It's harder to envisage such a thing now in our day and age of Science and Reason. Anyone saying such things would be going against the grain and locked up in a mental hospital.

But back then everyone was doing it - and it was easier to believe it. The boundary between, Fact & Fiction - Truth & Myth, was very fuzzy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIRb8TigJ28
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #4 - June 01, 2010, 11:24 PM

As I say, he sincerely wanted to do good and to help his people.

He originally probably only saw himself as being in a position to influence his own people, but he gradually became more influential. With that, he probably genuinely believed that God was working through him, helping him to victory over his enemies, and to spread a true and just religion.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #5 - June 01, 2010, 11:25 PM

It is staggering what humans can make themselves believe. I think Muhammad was deluded and may have had doubts at times, particularly after a few years, but like all deluded people, he found ways of convincing himself and sticking to his story. So I vote yes, but with this caveat.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #6 - June 01, 2010, 11:28 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 01, 2010, 11:24 PM
As I say, he sincerely wanted to do good and to help his people.

He originally probably only saw himself as being in a position to influence his own people, but he gradually became more influential. With that, he probably genuinely believed that God was working through him, helping him to victory over his enemies, and to spread a true and just religion.

I agree with this. Even though I put maybe, I still don't think he was a full blown liar. Sometimes he seems like a very trustworthy and kind person. Who knows.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #7 - June 01, 2010, 11:28 PM

I think he probably had doubt too. After all, I remember that there are ahadith that say he tried to top himself, or he contemplated suicide several times.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #8 - June 01, 2010, 11:30 PM

Quote from: TheLastKnight on June 01, 2010, 11:18 PM
No one can be quite that self deceiving. I think this illustrates pretty well he was cynically using Allah to achieve his own wants and wishes.

There are also the versus about marrying his adopted sons wife, that came just in time as it was illegal previously. Even Aisha said that it was funny how he got versus that suited himself.

However I dont think this discounts the original premise. Heck there's no doubt some of these versus sound suspicious, but he may have interspersed the quran with these verses to make his life easier, yet still believed he was "special" and had a special hotline to God.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #9 - June 01, 2010, 11:31 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on June 01, 2010, 11:28 PM
I think he probably had doubt too. After all, I remember that there are ahadith that say he tried to top himself, or he contemplated suicide several times.

Theres no doubt he was emotionally immature and unstable, probably explains why he got his kicks out of 6 year olds.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #10 - June 01, 2010, 11:47 PM

Yeah, he flew off the handle a couple of times, e.g., his mass-killing of prisoners or his engaging in despoilation.

The guy wasn't perfect.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #11 - June 01, 2010, 11:52 PM

Yes, I agree. It sure is possible he honestly thought he was God's final messenger, but on the other hand
I also feel it is possible that he just lied mainly for political reasons, and sometimes couldn't resist and lied
for personal gain.

All this is pure speculation of course, so really we should all just vote 'Impossible to know'. But that's no fun!

Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #12 - June 02, 2010, 12:01 AM

I watched the program entitled "The End of the World Cult" a few years ago and asked myself the same question. Does this guy really believe he is a prophet of God?

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #13 - June 02, 2010, 02:58 AM

muhammad was as much of a conscious fraud as convicted conman joseph smith the founder of mormonism and l ron hubbard the founder scientology.

he simply cannot be dismissed as being crazy, he was obviously very intelligent and knew exactly what he was doing
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #14 - June 02, 2010, 11:00 AM

Here's a question.

Sheikh Nazim - a sufi Sheikh with a massive following - believes he is in contact with a dead shiekh and gets visions telling him stuff and he predicts all sorts of shit and claims to be in communication with some of his more spiritually aware "Murids" when they are in different parts of the world etc... I've met him and he is an amazingly charismatic and magnetic personality.

Would you say he a conscious liar and manipulator?

Or a deluded person who nevertheless genuinely believes his own delusions?

EDIT: OOoops I should add a 3rd option - do you think he really is in contact with his dead sheikh, gets visions from God and can speak to his Murid when on the other side of the world?
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #15 - June 02, 2010, 11:36 AM

Quote
Would you say he a conscious liar and manipulator?

Yes. I think in the 21st century, anyone who claims these kinds of things is a liar and manipulator, but also at times self-deluding.

"Many people would sooner die than think; In fact, they do so." -- Bertrand Russell

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #16 - June 02, 2010, 11:42 AM

If he starts doing things solely for personal gain, I would think that he knew exactly what he was doing, and that he was a liar and a manipulator. If he only does things he perceives to be good, then he probably believes he is channeling some divine power on some level (he is deluded).

Bukhari 62:142 - Narrated Anas bin Malik:
The Prophet used to pass by (have sexual relation with) all his wives in one night, and at that time he had nine wives.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #17 - June 02, 2010, 12:24 PM

When I watched the documentary "The End of the World Cult", the reporter said he was getting the feeling that Michael Travesser was making it up as he went along; and it stuck me that that was what Muhammad was doing. If you study cult leaders, you will see a pattern emerging.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #18 - June 02, 2010, 12:31 PM

I think Mo actually believed at the beginning (as evidenced by his voiced doubts), but later realised it was complete nonsense.

This explains issues like Ibn Saad, where Muhammad gets angry that Ibn Saad credits Allah with being a good poet (and not Muhammad) and where Muhammad allows changes to the Suras.
It also explains the ridiculous self-serving suras (the one about Muhammad being too polite to tell his guests to leave, so Allah would instead; the "I can have sex with any women I want to" verse; the "give 1/5th of what you steal to me" verse, the fact that he wore 2 sets of armour etc.
I think one is able to distinguish between the revelations that Muhammad actually believed for (which were early on, were short and simple in structure and had no focus on a material gain for Mo) and the ones which were not - because he consciously had to work out the poetry involved, they are longer and more complex and they were focused on expanding his power.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #19 - June 03, 2010, 02:09 AM

Muhammed was either nuts or he was a liar.

There are some Hadiths where Muhammed thought he was visited by a demon ( he though Gabriel was a demon ) and tried to commit suicide. However he there were times where he seemed to know what he was doing like instructing his followers to fight the Meccans, Jews, marry 6 year old Aisha, sent Hafsa out of the house to have sex with the coptic slave Maria, and exc.

Any I don't think Muhammed was a valid prophet of Allah.
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #20 - June 03, 2010, 02:29 AM

Quote from: QueenIsabel on June 03, 2010, 02:09 AM
Muhammed was either nuts or he was a liar.

How about both?
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #21 - June 03, 2010, 02:35 AM

Quote
Iraqi Atheist

How about both?

Agree
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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #22 - June 03, 2010, 07:41 PM

I think you have to look at other people from our own age to understand if he really believed he was a prophet. Did David Koresh and Mashall Applewhite truly believe they were prophets? When I look at people like these, it suggests to me that Muhammad probably truly did believe he was a prophet.

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Re: What Muhammad Actually Believed
Reply #23 - June 03, 2010, 08:20 PM

has anyone here read the book by Ali Sina about Mohammad's psychology ?

if so how did u find it?

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