Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


Lights on the way
by akay
Today at 09:22 AM

Do humans have needed kno...
Yesterday at 03:29 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
June 25, 2025, 03:06 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 23, 2025, 08:28 PM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 22, 2025, 03:34 PM

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
June 21, 2025, 01:05 PM

New Britain
June 20, 2025, 09:26 PM

Is Iran/Persia going to b...
by zeca
June 17, 2025, 10:20 PM

News From Syria
June 17, 2025, 05:58 PM

Muslim grooming gangs sti...
June 17, 2025, 10:47 AM

ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM

What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM

Theme Changer

 Topic: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan

 (Read 7234 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     OP - January 05, 2009, 02:17 AM

    Science and Islam

    Monday 05 Jan 2009, 21:00 on BBC Four
    Sky Channel 116

    Physicist Jim Al-Khalili travels through Syria, Iran, Tunisia and Spain to tell the story of the great leap in scientific knowledge that took place in the Islamic world between the 8th and 14th centuries.

    Its legacy is tangible, with terms like algebra, algorithm and alkali all being Arabic in origin and at the very heart of modern science - there would be no modern mathematics or physics without algebra, no computers without algorithms and no chemistry without alkalis.

    For Baghdad-born Al-Khalili this is also a personal journey and on his travels he uncovers a diverse and outward-looking culture, fascinated by learning and obsessed with science. From the great mathematician Al-Khwarizmi, who did much to establish the mathematical tradition we now know as algebra, to Ibn Sina, a pioneer of early medicine whose Canon of Medicine was still in use as recently as the 19th century, he pieces together a remarkable story of the often-overlooked achievements of the early medieval Islamic scientists.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00gksx4

    .
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #1 - January 05, 2009, 02:20 AM

    The only "science" in Islam is what can be observed by any primitive desert dweller.

    As we all know, a lot of the science in the Quran is infact false.

    But I'd be interested to see what this program has to say on the subject.  Make sure you all watch it, and then post your critiques in this thread afterwards.  Afro

    .
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #2 - January 05, 2009, 02:37 AM

    Quote
    there would be no modern mathematics or physics without algebra, no computers without algorithms and no chemistry without alkalis.

    I disagree. The Arabs just got there first or the earliest documented evidence is Arabic that's all. Number systems existed in different civilisations it's just some aspects of the Arab system became dominate and was adapted by others. If the Arab didn't come up with it then someone else would have.

    I have to point out that after this contribution the Arabs don't seem to have progressed much.

    oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #3 - January 05, 2009, 03:59 AM

    Quote
    there would be no modern mathematics or physics without algebra, no computers without algorithms and no chemistry without alkalis.

    I disagree. The Arabs just got there first or the earliest documented evidence is Arabic that's all. Number systems existed in different civilisations it's just some aspects of the Arab system became dominate and was adapted by others. If the Arab didn't come up with it then someone else would have.

    I have to point out that after this contribution the Arabs don't seem to have progressed much.


    I disagree. Al Khawarizmi (Algorithm), was trained as the main translator in the translation house of the abbasid Haroun Al Rasheed. He translated tons of books from Greek to Arabic, but somehow, we never found the Greek books he translated from. We only have the Arabic books with his name on it.

    A goddamn bloody plagiarizing thief that is what he was. And how do we know today if his translations added anything (contributed) to the original? Or he missed something from the translation. We can not tell because the originals are burned. Gone. Like hundreds of thousands of books and manuscripts that were burned at the start of islamic khalifdom and at the end (Ottoman).

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #4 - January 05, 2009, 04:18 AM

    I think that the "scientific genius" of the Islamic world at its pseudo-golden age was little more than successful translation.

    This is one of the more innocent articles, but this is BBC, never missing an opportunity to tell us ignorant infidels how wonderful Islam actually is. The only good point in their Islam policy is that they give plenty of coverage to reformist and moderate Muslims.

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #5 - January 05, 2009, 08:35 AM

    I think youse guys are being a little harsh by swiping aside their achievements as mere plagiarism.  Technology transfer is the most common way for any society to progress,  innovation from within is quite rare by comparison. 

    Look at post-War Japan for a modern example - they've built entire industries by nicking America's technology, fine tuning it, making it smaller and more efficient.  The Arabs were the Japanese of their day.  They also deserve credit because in the process of achieving a technology transfer for their own ends, they also preserved knowledge which would otherwise have been lost.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #6 - January 05, 2009, 10:07 AM

    I think youse guys are being a little harsh by swiping aside their achievements as mere plagiarism.  Technology transfer is the most common way for any society to progress,  innovation from within is quite rare by comparison. 

    Look at post-War Japan for a modern example - they've built entire industries by nicking America's technology, fine tuning it, making it smaller and more efficient.  The Arabs were the Japanese of their day.  They also deserve credit because in the process of achieving a technology transfer for their own ends, they also preserved knowledge which would otherwise have been lost.

    They do not claim 'technology transfer'. They claim complete and utter innovation. They use words like Chemistry and Algebra and Algorithm, the names of Arabic scientists and translators, to convince us that somehow they invented it all.

    Also it is not transfer if you destroy the original. Not a good transfer at least.

    Also the Muslim rulers kept destroying the books over and over, each Khalif destroying the works from the previous Khaliphs, The First Four, then the Ottoman and Saladin being the worst offenders.

    That ultimately most of the knowledge was transferred to the West directly from the Greek works that were preserved in Europe. Contrary to popular self-hating belief, European nations never engaged in a central crusade against books. It was mostly localized feudal lords that went after certain books.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #7 - January 05, 2009, 11:48 AM

    I think youse guys are being a little harsh by swiping aside their achievements as mere plagiarism.  Technology transfer is the most common way for any society to progress,  innovation from within is quite rare by comparison. 

    Look at post-War Japan for a modern example - they've built entire industries by nicking America's technology, fine tuning it, making it smaller and more efficient.  The Arabs were the Japanese of their day.  They also deserve credit because in the process of achieving a technology transfer for their own ends, they also preserved knowledge which would otherwise have been lost.

    Agree with you here. I know Islam took a lot of knowledge from other civilisations (the Greeks in particular) but they did do a very good job spreading it around, adding to it, adapting it, putting it to use, etc. The Greeks themselves never really did anything very practical which is very unfortunate, but then they did melt down anything made from metal to reuse it so I guess we will never really know.

    However it does really annoy me that whenever the Islam Golden Age is mentioned all credit is given to Islam, that somehow their scientific progress is evidence for divinity.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #8 - January 05, 2009, 11:55 AM

    The whole idea of presenting a program on the subject to me justs reinforces the idea that Islam and its followers are feeling incredibly insecure.

    If there ever truly was a Golden Era of Islam then they must realise that such an era will never return and is gone for good.

    Imagine if they did a documentary on the non-Islamic contributions to science. It would probably take up an entire weeks TV scheduling.

    When I see programs like this all I get are images of Islam gasping for breath.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #9 - January 05, 2009, 12:25 PM

    The term should not really be Islam's  contribution. Because these advances in scince did not come out of Islam itself. Nothing in the Qur'an or hadiths or Muhammad's teachings gave rise to such science.

    It was the vast movement of the Arabs across vast areas from western Europe to Eastern Asia that much of what enamnated from the Islamic world was digested, updated and made available to large portions of humanity.

    For instance we have Arabic numerals, but that was developed in India. Medical knowledge had its source from the Greeks.

    It was a golden era and Muslims should be proud, but how it came about with the invasion and conquest of nations maybe is nothing to boast about.

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #10 - January 05, 2009, 01:41 PM

    What is the best source of unbiased information about the conquests? It's something I do not know much about but want to research.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #11 - January 05, 2009, 02:11 PM

    The BBC tends to talk about the Islamic empires in glowing terms as if they were not conquests and occupations but glorious flowerings of tolerance, scientific open mindedness and rich colourful culture. They where not.

    It's kind of like the way old British Imperialists used to look at the British Empire as bringing civilisation, Christianity, science and law to the savages.

    Why the BBC is producing programs promoting Arab and Muslim imperialism when it is run by anti imperialists only they can say.

    Although historacally there where great minds that came out of Islamic countries as has already been said their scientific advancements had nothing to do with The Koran or Islam but these prgram makers kind of imply it's Islamic science.

    As far as I know most of the great minds in Islamic countries were treated with suspicion and even declared as apostates for looking outside of the Koran for knowledge.

    Calling it Islamic science is kind of like calling astronomy Catholic just because Galileo was a Catholic. 
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #12 - January 05, 2009, 02:25 PM

    What is the best source of unbiased information about the conquests? It's something I do not know much about but want to research.


    Actually I'm reading a book at the moment:
    The Great Arab Conquests: How The Spread Of Islam Changed The World We Live In
    by Hugh Kennedy

    Though a western author he tries to put together much of the disparate histories that evovled from mainly Islamic historians. The conquered peoples had no history left after being conquered. Their side of the story never persists. As they say "History is written by the victors".


    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #13 - January 05, 2009, 02:33 PM

    As far as I know most of the great minds in Islamic countries were treated with suspicion and even declared as apostates for looking outside of the Koran for knowledge.


    I've also read a similar article showing that many of the scientists of the time especially in newly conquered Persia did not actually accept Islam but in fact used the benefits of the expanding empire to further their studies and research. They outwardly appeared Muslims to probably save their lives, but their writings tell otherwise.

    I have the document somewhere. Will look for it.

    Quote
    Calling it Islamic science is kind of like calling astronomy Catholic just because Galileo was a Catholic. 


    Or, I'm using a Christian computer to get on the Christian internet?

    Knowing Islam is the only true religion we do not allow propagation of any other religion. How can we allow building of churches and temples when their religion is wrong? Thus we will not allow such wrong things in our countries. - Zakir Naik
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #14 - January 05, 2009, 02:43 PM

    What is the best source of unbiased information about the conquests? It's something I do not know much about but want to research.


    Actually I'm reading a book at the moment:
    The Great Arab Conquests: How The Spread Of Islam Changed The World We Live In
    by Hugh Kennedy

    Though a western author he tries to put together much of the disparate histories that evovled from mainly Islamic historians. The conquered peoples had no history left after being conquered. Their side of the story never persists. As they say "History is written by the victors".

    Thanks, think I may buy that after I look around first.

    BTW is it true the Islamic Empire was the biggest in history? My dad told me that but wiki says otherwise.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #15 - January 05, 2009, 02:48 PM

    As for historians who specialise in Islam Bernard Lewis is a pretty good place to start.

    Forget scholars like Robert Spencer, he is the opposite end of the scale from the BBC.

    The BBC softsoaps Islamic history and Spencer demonises it. He is a neocon Christian so he has an ax to grind but Bernard Lewis plays it straight.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #16 - January 05, 2009, 02:57 PM

    What is the best source of unbiased information about the conquests? It's something I do not know much about but want to research.


    Actually I'm reading a book at the moment:
    The Great Arab Conquests: How The Spread Of Islam Changed The World We Live In
    by Hugh Kennedy

    Though a western author he tries to put together much of the disparate histories that evovled from mainly Islamic historians. The conquered peoples had no history left after being conquered. Their side of the story never persists. As they say "History is written by the victors".

    Thanks, think I may buy that after I look around first.

    BTW is it true the Islamic Empire was the biggest in history? My dad told me that but wiki says otherwise.


    I'd say the biggest empire in history to this date would be the empire of the United States of America.

    It may not be the biggest ever in land mass but you can be sure it is the biggest ever with regards to influence and it's still going strong.

    Also let's not forget they set foot on the moon. So we could say that the US empire is the biggest ever in our Solar System.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #17 - January 05, 2009, 03:03 PM

    As for historians who specialise in Islam Bernard Lewis is a pretty good place to start.

    Bloody hell he's written a lot of books. That might take a while to get through. Guess I'd better get reading.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #18 - January 05, 2009, 03:13 PM

    What is the best source of unbiased information about the conquests? It's something I do not know much about but want to research.


    Actually I'm reading a book at the moment:
    The Great Arab Conquests: How The Spread Of Islam Changed The World We Live In
    by Hugh Kennedy

    Though a western author he tries to put together much of the disparate histories that evovled from mainly Islamic historians. The conquered peoples had no history left after being conquered. Their side of the story never persists. As they say "History is written by the victors".

    Thanks, think I may buy that after I look around first.

    BTW is it true the Islamic Empire was the biggest in history? My dad told me that but wiki says otherwise.


    I'd say the biggest empire in history to this date would be the empire of the United States of America.

    It may not be the biggest ever in land mass but you can be sure it is the biggest ever with regards to influence and it's still going strong.

    Also let's not forget they set foot on the moon. So we could say that the US empire is the biggest ever in our Solar System.


    Historically I think the British empire was the biggest, America is not an imperial power and never has been.

    To be an empire you need to have an emperor or some kind of monarch and you need to colonise and rule places.

    America doesn't colonise and rule over places and it doesn't have a monarch.

    You can accuse America of using war or proxy wars and pet dictators to get what they want but you can't accuse them of imperialism. Even if you could you couldn't bring the moon into it dance

    What a whacky idea
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #19 - January 05, 2009, 03:17 PM

    My vote goes to the Romans. They lasted a lot longer than the US and Britain combined, and their cultural legacy (law, engineering etc, etc) is unparalleled. We (at least in Europe and thus most of the world) still walk in their shoes, partly.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #20 - January 05, 2009, 03:22 PM

    I think by 'big' people mean in land mass, I think it's the British empire not the Roman.

    Romans didn't get to India and China and everywhere in between.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #21 - January 05, 2009, 03:24 PM

    I think by 'big' people mean in land mass, I think it's the British empire not the Roman.

    Romans didn't get to India and China and everywhere in between.


    considering the technical standard and density of population, they did get quite far, though... from Persia to Scotland is quite a bit. Not to mention that they had a much smaller demographic base to go from and many enemies, that were on a par with them, technologically and militarily. The same cannot be said for the British Empire (and where they encountered such foes, they lost. Remember 1776? lol)  And land-mass isn?t everything. Also, they KEPT what they gained a lot longer... and transformed it, deeply.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #22 - January 05, 2009, 05:02 PM

    The Quran does have amazing predictive powers.

    http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Farsideology:_Seven_New_Scientific_Predictions

    Enjoy,
    Farside
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #23 - January 05, 2009, 05:06 PM

    Quote from: brucepig
    Calling it Islamic science is kind of like calling astronomy Catholic just because Galileo was a Catholic. 

     

    +1  Afro

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Science and Islam - BBC4 9pm 5th Jan
     Reply #24 - June 20, 2010, 02:08 PM

    On that note of Science and Islam,  Nadeem F. Paracha  hits hard at fools who think there is science in Quran., let me paste some snippets here

    Quote
    Science ends here  Nadeem F. Paracha  Sunday, 20 Jun, 2010


    I am itching to get my hands on a recently published book, God Created the Universe by Fatehulla Khan. After reading the review of the book, I can safely assume it is yet another document in the long line of glorified assertions that much of what we call scientific truths today was mentioned in the scriptures a long time ago.

    Ever since the late French physician, Maurice Bucaille — on a hefty payroll of the Saudi royal family in Riyadh — wrote Islam, Bible & Science (1976), many believe that ‘proving’ scientific truths from holy books has been the exclusive domain of Muslims. However, in spite of being impressed by the holy book’s ‘scientific wonders’, Bucaille remained a committed Christian.

    Very few of my wide-eyed brethren know that long before Muslims, certain Hindu and Christian theologians had already laid claim to the practice of defining their respective holy books as metaphoric prophecies of scientifically proven phenomenon. They began doing so between the 18th and 19th centuries, whereas Muslims got into the act only in the 20th century.

    This fool Maurice Bucaille along with that Oil money of Sand land ruined whatever little good that Arab Scientists of past did to inquire in to Science subjects.
    Quote
    Johannes Heinrich’s Scientific vindication of Christianity (1887) is one example, while Mohan Roy’s Vedic Physics: Scientific Origin of Hinduism (1999) is a good way of observing how this thought has evolved among followers of other faiths. It is interesting to note how a number of Muslim ‘scientists’ have laboured hard to come up with convoluted interpretations of certain scriptures. Ironically, their ancient counterparts, especially between the 8th and 13th centuries in Baghdad and Persia, had put all effort in trying to understand natural phenomena and the human body and mind through hardcore science and philosophy.

    Good suff Nadeem Good stuff., Slash the rascals with that sword that writes words on paper.
    Quote
    Those great men of Islamic antiquity weren’t over-reading into divine texts for scientific answers; instead, to them God’s command to reflect on nature and the world around them was enough to inspire them to become dedicated rational scientists and philosophers. They were celebrated not only by Muslims, but humanity at large for their scientific prowess

    Indeed these buggers who see science in Quran did tremendous injustice to Muslim Scientists of medieval times.
    Quote
    But, alas, beginning around the early 1970s, with the collapse of a secular nationalist mindset in the Muslim world, and the rise in influence of totalitarian oil-rich puritanical monarchies, Muslim polities and mindset began to suspect science as a tool of western and communist social engineering and imperialism.

    Whereas the wealthy monarchies remained firmly in the western camp during the Cold War, they aggressively proliferated reactionary literature that attacked both western and Marxist ideas across the Muslim world. Added to this was the propagated perception that modern science was the creation of the continuing Judo-Christian tradition (nay, ‘conspiracy’) aimed at undermining Islam.

    That is indeed true and the credit goes to Educated Muslim fools of 70s and 80s.

    Quote
    Rationalist Islamic scholars have been insisting throughout the 20th century to date that the holy book is less a book of laws or science. It is an elaborate moral guide for Muslims in which God has given the individual the freewill to decide for him or herself through exerting their mental faculties and striving to gain more empirical knowledge.

    sorry  Nadeem , I disagree with you,. The reason you wrote that may be,  I am hiding and your open.  Quran is NOT A MORAL GUIDE to humanity., It is silly and stupid book filled with nonsense. Whatever few good words are there in it, you will find them inevery religious book that was there before birth of Muhammad. So there is nothing new and nothing good in it.

    Quote
    So why read books of science, or enter a lab to understand the many workings of God’s nature and creatures; just read the holy book. Who knows you may find a theory on time travel and laser guns in it as well? Forget about all those great Muslim scientists of yore, or Abdus Salam, Einstein and Steve Hawkins. Just get in touch with your friendly neighbourhood jinn for all your energy needs.


    Without electricity, some parts of Karachi is burning.  Let get that Jinn to turn ob the Fan

    read it all at ...

    http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/the-newspaper/columnists/nadeem-f-paracha-science-ends-here-060

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »