A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.

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- Ishina
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #30 - August 30, 2010, 01:03 PM

Stop moving the fucking goalposts then.

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #31 - August 30, 2010, 01:09 PM

Once you have established that killing people is okay you then only have to decide what makes it okay to kill them. What you consider a crime heinous enough to warrant death will differ from someone else. The offences are a sliding scale, not even murder is simple in many cases and there are mitigating circumstances. What you consider okay to kill for is different from what someone else would consider okay. You wouldn't even get a global consensus on what order to put the offences in.

I'd have nobody killed.
You'd kill murderers.
My dad would kill paedophiles.
X would kill non-believers.

You can't just draw a line on the scale where YOU are happy and say "Anyone who does more than this is insane" because there is no such thing as absolute morality, especially not yours.

I hope I don't need to explain it again?

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #32 - August 30, 2010, 01:14 PM

I never said I'd kill murderers. I said I wouldn't mourn an executed murderer.

I never said anyone who disagrees with me is insane. I said I think proponents of execution for homosexuals and apostates are insane.

Can you understand the fundamental differences in these things?

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #33 - August 30, 2010, 01:23 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 30, 2010, 01:14 PM
I never said I'd kill murderers. I said I wouldn't mourn an executed murderer.

Sure. First you said "We could argue" for the killing of killers. Later you said you are undecided. You say you wouldn't mourn the death of a killer, what about a killer who had to kill to survive? What about a killer who killed the murderer of his baby? What about a killer who experienced decades of mental abuse at the hands of a partner? What about someone later proven to be innocent?

Quote from: Ishina on August 30, 2010, 01:14 PM
I never said anyone who disagrees with me is insane. I said I think proponents of execution for homosexuals and apostates are insane.

Yes, but your argument is only that YOU don't think it is right. I was pointing out that what is immoral to you is moral to someone else, and vice versa. If you argue that someone is insane just because their morals are different from yours then you must accept that you too are insane, because others disagree with your morals.

Quote from: Ishina on August 30, 2010, 01:14 PM
Can you understand the fundamental differences in these things?

Sure I do.

The USA kills people for what Americans think is immoral, and Iran do also - but they find different things immoral, my argument from the start has been that in my opinion the only moral stance is to not kill anyone at all (for various reasons), once you start excusing it by saying "I wouldn't mourn an executed murderer" you don't have any moral high ground and certainly no authority to draw a line on your imaginary scale and say "This is the line we cannot cross."

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #34 - August 30, 2010, 01:35 PM

Why not? Who says? Why can't I think its insane, and say so? Whats the bloody point of a forum if we cant speak our mind?

I. Think. Its. Insane.

I don't wanna hear about maybe's and might do's. I wanna know what YOU think, and what you think about what I think. You're not a fucking robot. You're a person. Don't you agree that stringing up homosexuals is maybe just a little bit... insane?

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #35 - August 30, 2010, 01:55 PM

Quote from: Ishina on August 30, 2010, 01:35 PM
You're not a fucking robot. You're a person.

Ah, but is it inconceivable that he could be both?

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #36 - August 30, 2010, 02:04 PM

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #37 - August 30, 2010, 07:01 PM

Quote from: TheRationalizer on August 30, 2010, 01:23 PM
Sure. First you said "We could argue" for the killing of killers. Later you said you are undecided. You say you wouldn't mourn the death of a killer, what about a killer who had to kill to survive? What about a killer who killed the murderer of his baby? What about a killer who experienced decades of mental abuse at the hands of a partner? What about someone later proven to be innocent?

Yes, but your argument is only that YOU don't think it is right. I was pointing out that what is immoral to you is moral to someone else, and vice versa. If you argue that someone is insane just because their morals are different from yours then you must accept that you too are insane, because others disagree with your morals.

Sure I do.

The USA kills people for what Americans think is immoral, and Iran do also - but they find different things immoral, my argument from the start has been that in my opinion the only moral stance is to not kill anyone at all (for various reasons), once you start excusing it by saying "I wouldn't mourn an executed murderer" you don't have any moral high ground and certainly no authority to draw a line on your imaginary scale and say "This is the line we cannot cross."

+1

"If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #38 - August 30, 2010, 07:55 PM

Quote from: Zebedee on August 30, 2010, 12:17 PM
A good way of telling whether a certain punishment fits any given crime is to see whether or not the punishment is proportionate to the crime. Since no-one is killed by a person's being an adulterer or by being homosexual, one could, on that basis, make a reasonable case for saying that death should not be the punishment for such 'crimes.'

^ This.

And Rationalizer, aren't you also flirting with a logical fallacy, namely tu quoque, by bringing up the death penalty in other countries in response to criticism of Iran?

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #39 - August 30, 2010, 08:03 PM

Well, I hope nobody is assuming they could ever make me feel ‘illogical’ or ‘morally inferior’ for thinking apostasy, adultery and same sex relationships are not worthy of the death sentence. That would just be a massive mistake in judgment.

As far as I’m concerned, anyone who can sincerely say “morality is relative” in this case is morally bankrupt anyway. Its such an inhuman way to approach these issues. Its a total cop-out. You might as well just not say anything, for what value and insight you add. I might let you off the hook if we were discussing dark ages vs. the modern age, but not when we are discussing Iran 2010. There is really no possible excuse or argument worth playing devil’s advocate with.

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #40 - August 30, 2010, 11:20 PM

apostacy and homosexuality aren't worth the death sentence. But...what IS worth the death sentence then?Where do you decide to draw the line, and why?

"If intelligence is feminine... I would want that mine would, in a resolute movement, come to resemble an impious woman."
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #41 - August 30, 2010, 11:54 PM

Child abusers and molesters, for example.

Perhaps the most vile of all crimes, to rob a child of precious innocence and leave them broken and haunted for the rest of their lives, just to satisfy the most loathsome and depraved appetite. There is a difference between what I think should happen to such non-humans and what I’d really like to happen to them. I think they should have a day in court, face a jury and judge, go to prison for the rest of their lives, in accordance with a controlled, cold and systematic, just and fair system of law and order. But what I really want to happen to them, would be to have their bollocks removed with a rusty chain saw and then left to bleed to death in agony in a gutter somewhere.

I’m not the one making the rules, though. And the last time someone was executed in my country was nearly half a century ago.

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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #42 - August 31, 2010, 12:03 AM

Ishina right, The Rationalizer wrong. End of debate.

Quote from: Ishina on August 30, 2010, 11:54 PM
Child abusers and molesters, for example.

Perhaps the most vile of all crimes, to rob a child of precious innocence

Oh whatever, those kids know what they're doing. It's their fault.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhrKL0pEerI

fuck you
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #43 - August 31, 2010, 12:18 AM

Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
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Re: A message to the Islamic Republic of Iran.
Reply #44 - August 31, 2010, 12:47 AM

Pre-pubescent, just the way I like 'em.

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