Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed

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- Zebedee
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Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
OP - March 18, 2011, 02:09 PM

It's a debate on what the teaching of Jihad entails in mainstream Islam between Robert Spencer and Moustafa Zayed. Could be interesting:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SW6_m0FVJgQ
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #1 - March 18, 2011, 02:22 PM

Cool. I'll watch it after work

So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
My political philosophy below
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
Just kidding, here are some true heros
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #2 - March 19, 2011, 03:53 AM

Both of those men are fucking RETARDS. Spencer is just an all-round fuckwit who selectively quotes Islamic sources to bolster his agenda and bias, whilst Zayed takes Maududi and ibn Taymiyyah seriously (the former being a Pakistani Islamist, the latter being the father of Wahhabism and Islamism).
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #3 - March 29, 2011, 02:21 PM

Quote
Spencer is just an all-round fuckwit who selectively quotes Islamic sources to bolster his agenda and bias

Maybe, but a lot of the stuff he quotes can't just be dismissed as being 'out of context.'

Quote
whilst Zayed takes Maududi and ibn Taymiyyah seriously (the former being a Pakistani Islamist, the latter being the father of Wahhabism and Islamism).

A lot of people take Maududi seriously, although some have accused him of heresy. Nevertheless, his more egregious ideas are not far out of line with the medieval orthodoxy.

And Ibn Taymiyyah was part of a larger literalist tradition, although the Salafists do seem to draw on his theology quite a lot in particular. Even so, he's quite a well-respected scholar, even if many disagree with him, and he did not invent Wahhabism as such, though the literalist theology that he espoused no doubt influenced it.
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #4 - March 29, 2011, 02:33 PM

Maududi is very, very influential, especially in Pakistan, and in the UK as far as the Jamaat-e-Islami and their various manifestations in the Ummah Identity Politics movement, the MCB and so on. Without understanding Maududi, you do not understand the shape of Islamism and beyond that, the attitudes of many Muslims today. He has shaped the grassroots as well as the 'activists'

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #5 - March 29, 2011, 02:56 PM

Wasnt Maududi the dude who said its Islamically correct to have sex with slaves out of marriage?

Spencer is a twat, one side he speaks against Islam but on the other side he sides with Nazis Far right facists just to get his message sold.

They are both fuckwits
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #6 - March 29, 2011, 04:55 PM

Arghhhhhhhhh!

muslims have to be educated to banish Islam from the earth. Is a destruction to one self and everything, there is nothing good about it, can't they f...kng see! doesn't provide any advantage. The only thing that causes not to desert the faith, is the fear of going to hell, no body wants to go to hell!!!, the hell threat it so well repeated in the quran and through the mouths of many who join the faith that it end up getting hold of you, it fucks your brain...but from the rational side of it (once you alow you rational side to take control of you), thinking,,,to put all your faith in a book that says that JESUS talked in the craddle?, then I'd imagine him speaking with a "teletubby voice" as recent born baby, and that the ants were running away from Solomon cos they thought they'd be stepped by him and so Solomon turned to the aints with a few kind words (though I knew he had many powers, as to comunicate with all other beings, spirits, commanded the wind),,,these particular stories, at the time of me being part of the faith, made me so confussed (after many confussions), god couldn't involve his speech in other stuff more important than us to dwell in a story of a prophet conversating with ants?
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #7 - March 29, 2011, 05:26 PM

Ibn Taymiyyah was known as "sheikh ul-islam" and his works are read by ALL sunni muslims not just salafis. Jihadi Islamists like him because of the mardin fatwa, in which he said it was obligatory for muslims to kill the mongol leaders because they didn't rule by sharia law even though they claimed to be muslims. Al-Qaeda and co. use this fatwa and certain verses (5:44 and 45 I think) to declare the rulers in muslim countries as "apostates" thus need to be removed.

Quote from: billy on March 29, 2011, 02:33 PM
Maududi is very, very influential, especially in Pakistan, and in the UK as far as the Jamaat-e-Islami and their various manifestations in the Ummah Identity Politics movement

True, however his influence and JI influence is declining, mainly because he and JI believe in democracy which has got Islamists nowhere so now islamists that oppose democracy (HT, Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc.) are gaining more influence. There was an offshoot of JI in the early days as well because of this issue:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanzeem-e-islami

The biggest threat from Islamists in Pakistan isn't JI or the taliban, its those HT guys, something which 1 of my uncles (a colonel in the pk army) told me himself
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #8 - March 29, 2011, 08:39 PM

Quote
True, however his influence and JI influence is declining, mainly because he and JI believe in democracy which has got Islamists nowhere so now islamists that oppose democracy (HT, Taliban, Al-Qaeda etc.) are gaining more influence

In Pakistan the Jamaati influence is just beginning. Maududi's idea was that Islam had to be injected into the body politic of Pakistan so it didn't just become institutionalised from on top, it seeped up from below. For example the persecution of the Ahmadiya began in the 1960's after violent protests from the JeI. They were always pushing away at the fabric of society, and eventually when General Zia took power and radicalised things to the maximum it was at the behest of the JeI. He was a personal disciple of Maududi.

They have always focussed on being organised not to win elections, but to bully and coerce those who win elections or take power by whatever means. In the UK, the JeI are influential in terms of laying out the infrastructure for Islamic politics, whether through the mosques, study centres, pressure groups. The Pakistani JeI connection is far more influential than the Ikhwan, which is mostly an Arab ideological group, because there are more Pakistanis than Arabs in Britain. Right back from 1989, when the Salman Rushdie affair kicked off modern Islamic identity politics big style, it was the JeI who were at the forefront of that, and went on to form the MCB which is a front organisation for the Jamaati.

They have never allowed British Pakistani Muslims to settle their identity on their own terms, they have set the general tone and atmosphere for Islamic politics and influenced a very narrow, insular culture deeply influenced by Maududi's ideas that Muslims can never be fully part of a non Muslim society, that Muslims need an Islamic space separate from non Muslims. This has been detrimental for Muslims and wider society, especially in the milltowns in the north.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #9 - March 29, 2011, 09:50 PM

I assumed that only deobandi minded pakistanis would be followers of Maududi's views? Most British pakis are barelvi. But yeah the segregation is common and obvious :/
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #10 - March 29, 2011, 10:06 PM

The deobandi thing is really complex. Its difficult to parse where it begins and ends with hyper politicised religion like Maududi-ism.

Think of Barelvism as a kind of folk Islam, whilst Deobandi influenced Islam influenced a 'higher up' kind of heavily politicised kind of Islam that found expression in the activism of the JeI. Basically, Barelvism was what people who only cared about Islam within their own lifestyle followed. Men who organised themselves into groups, activists, and saw usefulness in organising around Islam as an ideology, not a grassroots kind of religion, found something appealing in the message of Maududi.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #11 - March 30, 2011, 12:29 AM

I know a few of the theological differences between deobandism and barelvism (learnt how to 'refute' their beliefs during my islamic indoctrination) Yeah barelvis are a lot less politicised, they focus more on the spiritual side of Islam and are more open minded. There have been sectarian tensions in Pakistan between the 2 groups I hope it doesn't spread to here.
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Re: Jihad Debate: Spencer vs. Zayed
Reply #12 - March 30, 2011, 02:52 AM

ibn taymiyyah was one of the worst things to happen to Islam

At evening, casual flocks of pigeons make
Ambiguous undulations as they sink,
Downward to darkness, on extended wings. - Stevens
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