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 Topic: How to prevent circumcisions

 (Read 21635 times)
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  • How to prevent circumcisions
     OP - April 21, 2010, 06:49 PM
    Hi,

    If you believe that circumcising a young male is wrong, and want to prevent this from happening to a relative of yours, then read this thread and learn how you might succeed.

    Please discuss and present (theological) arguments that could persuade Muslim parents not to circumcise their little boy(s).

    Some arguments I can remember:

    1. Circumcision is not mentioned once in the Qur'an. It is not required by Allah's book at all.
    2. Circumcision is only mentioned in the Hadiths. One could argue, that they are weak, or that they contradict other Hadiths and the Qur'an.
    3. The Qur'an says, that Allah created humans in a perfect fashion (exact sources?). It could be said, that altering the body is blasphemy. Cutting off the foreskin would imply that Allah made a mistake in the creation of the male.
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  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #1 - April 21, 2010, 07:19 PM
    If the person is a fundie, as him/her if she/he is OK with eyebrow plucking. Normally they would say yes cuz its altering Allah's creation. Drop in the bit about foreskin being Allah's creation too.

    It's more along the line of your 3rd argument, and your one is better in the terms that the person you're telling doesn't ave to be a fundie.
    "In every time and culture there are pressures to conform to the prevailing prejudices. But there are also, in every place and epoch, those who value the truth; who record the evidence faithfully. Future generations are in their debt." -Carl Sagan

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #2 - April 21, 2010, 08:39 PM
    Quote from: Aziz on April 21, 2010, 06:49 PM
    Hi,

    If you believe that circumcising a young male is wrong, and want to prevent this from happening to a relative of yours, then read this thread and learn how you might succeed.

    Please discuss and present (theological) arguments that could persuade Muslim parents not to circumcise their little boy(s).

    Some arguments I can remember:

    1. Circumcision is not mentioned once in the Qur'an. It is not required by Allah's book at all.
    2. Circumcision is only mentioned in the Hadiths. One could argue, that they are weak, or that they contradict other Hadiths and the Qur'an.
    3. The Qur'an says, that Allah created humans in a perfect fashion (exact sources?). It could be said, that altering the body is blasphemy. Cutting off the foreskin would imply that Allah made a mistake in the creation of the male.


    +1 - we should say this to any muslim that we know.  Even as a muslim, you could make each one of these arguments.  In fact I did exactly this to a muslim friend of mine, and he changed his mind  Afro 

    That baby has got me to thank over the bountiful extra orgasms he gets further down the line.
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  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #3 - April 21, 2010, 09:18 PM
    Well the FGM hadiths are supposed to be weak, why not the MGM too?  you'd think with how protective dudes can be over their lower area, that they would willingly latch on to a way to prevent it being snipped at all.  parrot

    I always mention 1 and 3 when debating the issue of circumcision with other people, I assumed there were more hadiths on male circumcision and it was pretty much a given so I didn't really use number 2.  I would lay more emphasis on the 3rd arguement, but I think it's worth looking at making a very clear article or thread that can be linked to, showing how little evidence there is in the hadiths that it's mandatory if that's the case, and compare it to how FGM has been downgraded to non sahih to see if that works better? 

    Thing is though, many men snip their boys, even without Islam, the whole "it looks better" arguement, I think even that needs to be tackled.  Plus the whole being less at risk of catching infections.

    Because even if you tackle the islamic part, there are still ex muslim men here who believe it looks better, that lasting longer is worth the cut, and that is infection free to boot.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #4 - April 21, 2010, 09:43 PM
    Quote
    that lasting longer is worth the cut


    Non cut men can last long too  Afro

    To be honest, the amount of sexual sensitivity that is lost due to circumcision is an offence against the male body in itself.




    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #5 - April 21, 2010, 09:48 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 21, 2010, 09:43 PM
    Non cut men can last long too  Afro

    To be honest, the amount of sexual sensitivity that is lost due to circumcision is an offence against the male body in itself.







    I agree, but so many men fall for the hype and propaganda that surrounds it, not just for islam.  I believe there are some pretty high figures for circumcision in America, although that figure is dropping http://www.cirp.org/library/statistics/USA/ because of the urban myths surrounding it. 
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #6 - April 21, 2010, 09:54 PM

    I wonder why America has this culture of circumcision. There must be some historical reasons for it.
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #7 - April 21, 2010, 09:56 PM
    Does circumcision really decrease sensitivity?  Cry  Can any of you guys cite some credible research on the matter?



    Quote from: BerberElla on April 21, 2010, 09:18 PM
    Well the FGM hadiths are supposed to be weak, why not the MGM too?  you'd think with how protective dudes can be over their lower area, that they would willingly latch on to a way to prevent it being snipped at all.  parrot

    There are FGM hadiths?  mysmilie_977
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #8 - April 21, 2010, 10:02 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 21, 2010, 09:56 PM
    Does circumcision really decrease sensitivity?  Cry  Can any of you guys cite some credible research on the matter?

    I assume so, but have never looked into this matter in detail.  Last I checked there are opposing conclusions, but if you do look into it please post your conclusions here.  I left it with the assumption that it does decrease sensitivity, as it stands to reason & common sense.  

    I mean, what do you expect when you cut the tip the outer skin of your knob off?  Particularly by far the most sensitive part..

    I also came to the conclusion that its better for the woman, as it makes us go on for longer.  And if you make the woman happy, then you get more of it  Double Afro
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  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #9 - April 21, 2010, 10:05 PM
    Book 41, Number 5251: sunan abu dawud

    Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah:

    A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.

    Book 2, Number 2.19.73: maliks muwatta

    Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Said ibn al-Musayyab that Umar ibn al-Khattab and Uthman ibn Affan and A'isha, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to say, "When the circumcised part touches the circumcised part, ghusl is obligatory."

    Quote
    The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When a man sits between the four parts (arms and legs of his wife) and the one circumcised part touches the other, then ghusl is obligatory.” Narrated by Muslim, 349.

    Al-Nawawi said in Sharh Muslim:

    With regard to the phrase “and the one circumcised part touches the other, then ghusl is obligatory”: the scholars said: what this means is when your penis disappears into her vagina; it does not mean touching in a real sense. That is because the circumcised part of a woman is above the vagina, and the penis does not touch it during intercourse. The scholars are unanimously agreed that if he places his penis on the circumcised part and does not enter (the vagina), then no ghusl is required, neither for him nor for her.

    http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/43479


    yup.

    How sahih are the male circumcision ones?  Because these hadiths get dismissed by modernists, and used by traditionalists.  wacko

    @Billy, I do wonder why circumcision become fashionable in America too.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #10 - April 21, 2010, 10:13 PM
    I never saw it like that Billy - perhaps I am missing out on something   Cry

    I hear plastic surgeons  do foreskin transplants nowadays?
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  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #11 - April 21, 2010, 10:22 PM
    You sure do billy. Cheesy That should be post of the year !

    From my personal experience the glans is the most sensitive part followed by the little strip immediately adjacent to the glans. This strip is not covered by the same skin on the rest of the shaft. I always wondered, do uncircumcised guys have this area? 
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #12 - April 21, 2010, 10:26 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 21, 2010, 10:22 PM
    From my personal experience the glans is the most sensitive part followed by the little strip immediately adjacent to the glans. This strip is not covered by the same skin on the rest of the shaft. I always wondered, do uncircumcised guys have this area? 


    Running underneath, to the sack? All present and correct, squire.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #13 - April 21, 2010, 10:34 PM
    No that's not it. My bad though I shouldn't have used the word strip.

    It's a ring sorta between the shaft and the glans. It's a continuation of the shaft technically but the skin is different and I find it more sensitive.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #14 - April 21, 2010, 10:37 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 21, 2010, 10:34 PM
    No that's not it. My bad though I shouldn't have used the word strip.

    It's a ring sorta between the shaft and the glans. It's a continuation of the shaft technically but the skin is different and I find it more sensitive.


    Yeah I see what you mean. Yeah, we got that too  Afro

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #15 - April 21, 2010, 10:43 PM
    My main worry the first time was not to finish quickly, something I failed at  Embarrassed Cry

    In fact it wasn't until after I had sex about 10 times that I could last long and change positions during intercourse.

    It's all a memory now. A beautiful one that is  Afro


    Quote from: billy on April 21, 2010, 10:37 PM
    Yeah I see what you mean. Yeah, we got that too  Afro

    Lucky bastards you got it all !
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #16 - April 21, 2010, 10:49 PM
    Quote from: billy on April 21, 2010, 09:54 PM
    I wonder why America has this culture of circumcision. There must be some historical reasons for it.

    I believe it was a 19th century temperance movement type thing to make masturbation more difficult.
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #17 - April 21, 2010, 10:51 PM
    Quote from: Iraqi Atheist on April 21, 2010, 10:43 PM
    My main worry the first time was not to finish quickly, something I failed at  Embarrassed Cry

    In fact it wasn't until after I had sex about 10 times that I could last long and change positions during intercourse.


     We've all experienced that Grin
    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #18 - April 21, 2010, 10:53 PM
    Quote from: hupla on April 21, 2010, 10:49 PM
    I believe it was a 19th century temperance movement type thing to make masturbation more difficult.


    I think I remember reading something like that a while back, you just reminded me of it.

    And yeah its strange because I think America is the only non Jewish / Muslim society in the world that has virtually normative circumcision.



    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #19 - April 21, 2010, 10:54 PM
    The patterns have been changing though starting from the 80s.
  • Re: How to prevent circumcisions
     Reply #20 - April 21, 2010, 11:18 PM
    Thread locked.

    I'd appreciate it if people stayed strictly on topic. Somebody from the staff should create another thread and move off-topic postings there. I gotta hit the pillow. Thanks. Smiley
    German ex-Muslim forum — My YouTube — List of Ex-Muslims —
    Wikis: en – de – fr – ar – tr
    CEMB-Chat
    I'm on an indefinite break...
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