Arabic speakers, help

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- DM1
- Member
- offline
Arabic speakers, help
OP - August 27, 2011, 12:52 PM

So I was having a discussion with a Muslim regarding verse 21:33

Wahuwa allathee khalaqa allayla waalnnahara waalshshamsa waalqamara kullun fee falakin yasbahoona

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. They float, each in an orbit.

Apparently, one of the meanings of "yasbahoona" is "rotate", is this true?, this is what they've wrote;

Quote
It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: ALL the celestial bodies rotate, each in its own orbit."

You are reading in English, had you studied the Arabic you would have come across the word 'ya/sabaha/sbahuna', one of the meanings of this verb is to rotate. This applies to all celestial bodies, inclusive of the Earth's orbit and rotation.

Even though every single translation I looked at, and I looked at 12 different ones by Muslims and non-Muslim translators, they either translated it as "swim" or "float", not one translated it as "rotate".

So is this just another case of bullshit?
- Kodanshi
- La solitude s'eprend de mon coeur
- Ex-Muslim
- *Careful Plague & Scarred Joy*
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #1 - August 27, 2011, 01:20 PM

The root of the word: sīn bā ḥā (س ب ح). ‘Arabi dictionary gives this as the meaning:

Quote
Siin-Ba-Ha = to swim, roll onwards, perform a daily course, float, the act of swimming, occupy oneself in: the accomplishment of his needful affairs or seeking the means of subsistence, business/occupation, those who are floating, went/travel far, being quick/swift. To praise/glorify/hollow/magnify, sing/celebrate praise, holy, declaring God to be far removed or free for every imperfection/impurity

Lots of floating there, but I see nothing about ‘rotation’, unless you extend the concept of ‘floating’ to incorporate it.
- nj7
- Member
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #2 - August 27, 2011, 01:31 PM

Looks like this claim started with some BS from Bucaille:
http://www.quranmiracles.com/all-afloat-in-orbits/

This is what Lane's lexicon says (no indication of rotation):
http://www.studyquran.org/LaneLexicon/Volume4/00000013.pdf

http://quranspotlight.wordpress.com/
- harakaat
- The Cunning Linguist
- Ex-Muslim
- The World Is Quiet Here
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #3 - August 27, 2011, 05:25 PM

Ask him to quote an Arabic mu3jam and show you where it says it means "rotate".

I've *never* heard or seen that word used in that context, but I'm too lazy to go through the HUGE Lisaan al 'Arab entry (http://www.baheth.info/all.jsp?term=%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD) to verify that that's not an attested usage.

Ask him to give you evidence.

قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #4 - August 27, 2011, 05:47 PM

Quote from: DM1 on August 27, 2011, 12:52 PM
So is this just another case of bullshit?

It means to swim, run, travel, move, go, float etc... though lisan ulArab does say in one part:

والنجوم تَسْبَحُ في الفَلَكِ سَبْحاً إِذا جرت في دَورَانها.

"And the stars swim in the celestial sphere swimmingly - if it runs/travels in it's rotation/orbit"

The meaning of rotation/orbit is not the actual meaning of sabaha but implied by the context of what it's talking about.

But what is he trying to say? Since this simply fits the geocentric belief at the time that the sun and the moon orbit the earth.

So I'm not sure what his point is?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #5 - August 27, 2011, 06:02 PM

وَهُوَ الَّذِي خَلَقَ اللَّيْلَ وَالنَّهَارَ وَالشَّمْسَ وَالْقَمَرَ كُلٌّ فِي فَلَكٍ يَسْبَحُونَ

This verse far from being a miracle, implies night and day is caused by the rotation of the sun and moon around the Earth - precisely what they used to believe at the time according to the geocentric view.

Night and day is of course as the result of the earth's rotation on it's own axis as it rotates around the sun.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #6 - August 27, 2011, 06:03 PM

Geocentric model widespread at the time of Muhammad - as you can see the sun and moon are swimming around in the celestial sphere and causing night and day - a perfect match for that verse! :
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #7 - August 27, 2011, 06:15 PM

Had *God* wanted to indicated miraculous knowledge not known at the time - i.e. that night and day is caused by the rotation of the earth on it's axis and around the Sun - what it would NOT do is put it the way it has been put in that verse - which looks suspiciously like the geocentric view.

It should say something like:

And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the Earth and the moon. They each float in an orbit around the Sun.
- DM1
- Member
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #8 - August 27, 2011, 06:36 PM

Cheers guys for the help.

Quote from: Hassan on August 27, 2011, 05:47 PM
It means to swim, run, travel, move, go, float etc... though lisan ulArab does say in one part:

والنجوم تَسْبَحُ في الفَلَكِ سَبْحاً إِذا جرت في دَورَانها.

"And the stars swim in the celestial sphere swimmingly - if it runs/travels in it's rotation/orbit"

The meaning of rotation/orbit is not the actual meaning of sabaha but implied by the context of what it's talking about.

But what is he trying to say? Since this simply fits the geocentric belief at the time that the sun and the moon orbit the earth.

So I'm not sure what his point is?

I quoted some of the verses which implies the geocentric view, and he replied by saying that this refers to the galactic orbit .. so I asked him why would Allah mention the galactic orbit but not the Earth's orbit/rotation, this information would've been very insightful!... he then responded with that aforementioned post.. basically he seems to think that the verse implies the Earth orbit/rotation, but what he's done is used Yusuf Ali's translation, removed the parentheses and replaced the word "swim" with "rotate".

I mean, it's so obvious what those verses really mean, and yet they can't see it.. it's like having an elephant in your room, and not seeing it.
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #9 - August 27, 2011, 07:51 PM

The sun rotates around the centre of the Milky Way Galaxy once every 250 million years! How does that have any relevance to "Night & Day" or to the people the Qur'an was revealed to or today for that matter. The "movement" of the sun we observe is in fact because of the Earth's rotation - not the Suns rotation around the galaxy.

And I don't understand how he gets the meaning of the *Earth's* rotation? It doesn't mention the Earth.

This is what faith does. The Qur'an is truly God's word - so it simply "must" be in accord with science. They are blind to what's in front of them because the premise the Qur'an is God's word is to them an immovable fact!
- DM1
- Member
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #10 - August 28, 2011, 10:21 AM

It is He Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the moon: ALL the celestial bodies rotate, each in its own orbit."

He seems to think that the "ALL the celestial bodies rotate, each in its own orbit." includes the Earth orbit and rotation!, as far as I know, the Arabs were aware of 5 planets?
- cosmicdancer
- Pub Regular
- offline
Re: Arabic speakers, help
Reply #11 - August 28, 2011, 10:50 AM

How can Kullun (all/each) refer to the earth as well when it's not mentioned in the verse??!!

It's like me picking sides for a football game and saying: I want Tom, Dick and Harry - all of them are on my side. Then walking of with Peter too, saying - "Oh when I said "all of them" i meant peter too - even though I didn't mention him"

it's bullshit.

He is simply reading what he wants to see in it. There is absolutely no way this verse can be given as evidence for what he is claiming.

Quite the contrary, as I said above, it is exactly what one would expect to hear if one believed in a geocentric universe with the sun and moon rotating around the earth and causing night and day.

It makes no sense to talk about night and day - and then only name the sun and moon - if the intention was to show a link between night and day and the orbit of the EARTH around the sun?

Just illogical nonsense. But faith can make a square a circle.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »