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Theme Changer

 Topic: A question: Esperanto or Basque?

 (Read 2988 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #30 - January 05, 2012, 12:28 AM

    This is a poem that lists synonyms for having sex:

    Quote
    Por la unua, dolĉa foj': deflori,
    kaj poste: nupti, karnon miksi, trui,
    seksumi, kaj koiti, kaj geĝui,
    kopuli, kohabiti kaj amori.

    Enpafi, ŝtopi, vosti, grotesplori,
    palisi, kaj bambui, kaj geglui,
    kunkuŝi, kaj interne intervjui,
    bombardi sube, mini, lanci, bori.

    Kaj broson brosi, glavon karnan ingi,
    buteron kirli, sondi, piŝti, piki,
    kamenbalai, inan ingon klingi,

    surpingli, karnon planti, truon fliki,
    la brulon per la akvotub' estingi,
    tranajli, spili, ŝargi, farĉi, fiki.


    If you consider this "pathetic", then it's clear you're quite biased against Esperanto.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #31 - January 05, 2012, 03:05 AM

     Grin Allow me to summarize via the cunning use of rage faces:

    Harakaat: "OMG ESPERANTO!!!"



    Everyone else:

    Life is what happens to you while you're staring at your smartphone.

    Eternal Sunshine of the Religionless Mind
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #32 - January 05, 2012, 03:13 AM

    But of course.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #33 - January 05, 2012, 05:36 PM

    I say fair play to people who want to learn or create artificial languages. It could potentially be productive in the study of linguistics as a whole. But when it comes to inventing a language to serve as an international lingua franca, as I understand is one reason for doing so, there are plenty of existing languages that would fulfill that role aptly, so I don't really see the need to create an entirely new one for the purpose.

    And no I haven't read that book. As I wrote I tend not to be terribly interested in the subject, so I haven't really read about it. I did have a lecture about artificial languages, specifically Klingon, but of course, not being a Trekky I wasn't really interested enough to look any further into the subject. Smiley
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #34 - January 05, 2012, 06:11 PM

    The problem with picking a national language and making it the international lingua franca is that this gives an unfair advantage to native speakers of the language (and yes, there's definitely a feeling of inequality -- I see this everyday), and that you'll almost invariably end up picking a highly idiomatic, highly irregular language that'll constrain L2 speakers considerably.

    In my school, an international school, the language of instruction is English. This means that students find themselves immersed in an environment where they have to speak the language, and often speak it quite fluently and with an American-ish accent, to boot. However, our average SAT score in Writing and Critical Reading is still far below the American average score. And what's worse, practically no one can speak Arabic (colloquial Arabic!) without code-switching, and very few can write decent MSA. I recall seeing a study once about how this sort of bilingualism leads to subpar fluency in both spoken languages.

    I've only been in this school for a couple of years. When I was younger, I used to go to a far more Arabic-centric school, and even there no one really spoke fluent MSA (one reason I think teaching it is entirely pointless). More importantly, though, practically no one spoke English. They simply couldn't communicate in the language, beyond very rudimentary areas of speech.

    Esperanto, on the other hand, is exponentially easier to learn than national languages. If you dedicated just 150 hours to it, you could speak it with a comparable level of fluency to a student who put in 1500 hours for English (2000 for German, 1000 for Italian, all from the perspective of a native French speaker.) Its 1. flexible, and 2. regular grammar means that it's both very expressive and very learner friendly. That's why there's 25,000 books in Esperanto, and Esperantists often say they find themselves more comfortable with it than even with their own native language.

    Now all this is assuming one could magically pick an IAL and have it taught all over the world. In that case, I think it would make no sense whatsoever to pick a national language. You don't necessarily have to pick Esperanto, but Esperanto has the advantage of having over a century of literature and usage and by far the largest community of speakers among conlangs. It's also politically neutral and pretty easy to learn.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #35 - January 05, 2012, 07:26 PM

    Quote
    The problem with picking a national language and making it the international lingua franca is that this gives an unfair advantage to native speakers of the language


    That's a good point. Although, one could use an 'extinct' (yet nevertheless well understood) language like Latin, which itself has a community of speakers, to counteract the native speaker advantage. You've still got the problem of people who are more familiar with the language on account of its comparative similarity to their native tongue though, which is obviously the case with Latin and Esperanto. Any non-Indo-European speakers may likewise feel that the language is unfavourable to them.

    Quote
    When I was younger, I used to go to a far more Arabic-centric school, and even there no one really spoke fluent MSA


    What did they speak instead, French?

    Quote
    Esperanto, on the other hand, is exponentially easier to learn than national languages. If you dedicated just 150 hours to it, you could speak it with a comparable level of fluency to a student who put in 1500 hours for English (2000 for German, 1000 for Italian, all from the perspective of a native French speaker.)


    I suppose that depends on your own linguistic backround, but I don't know how hard it is to learn Esperanto so I can't really say much on the subject. Seems to me though that, say, a Japanese person who has had exposure to English, given that it's an international language, is likely to have an easier time learning it than Esperanto, given its reliance on European vocabulary with which a Japanese speaker may not be so well acquainted. Personally, I think English is a pretty simple language to learn, for the most part. The only thing learners might find difficult is verb tenses, but aside from that it's fairly straight forward.

    Anyway, I'm just musing aloud. Like I say, I hardly have opinions never mind thought-out ones on this subject.
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #36 - January 05, 2012, 08:01 PM

    That's a good point. Although, one could use an 'extinct' (yet nevertheless well understood) language like Latin, which itself has a community of speakers, to counteract the native speaker advantage. You've still got the problem of people who are more familiar with the language on account of its comparative similarity to their native tongue though, which is obviously the case with Latin and Esperanto. Any non-Indo-European speakers may likewise feel that the language is unfavourable to them.


    You've also got the problem of difficulty and irregularity. And hurt sentiments Tongue Why Latin and not Sanskrit or Ancient Greek? If I had to choose, I'd probably choose Sanskrit, since I've heard incredibly things about the language. I don't know if it was propaganda (and given the things we Arabs often say about Arabic, it very well could've been), but it was really impressive.


    What did they speak instead, French?



    Nothing Tongue Technically, they were being "taught" English, but the teachers were woefully unqualified and couldn't speak it themselves. This is more common than you'd imagine -- studying English for a decade at school usually doesn't lead to fluency in areas where there isn't much cultural exposure to English.

    I suppose that depends on your own linguistic backround, but I don't know how hard it is to learn Esperanto so I can't really say much on the subject. Seems to me though that, say, a Japanese person who has had exposure to English, given that it's an international language, is likely to have an easier time learning it than Esperanto, given its reliance on European vocabulary with which a Japanese speaker may not be so well acquainted.


    It is true that the language is based, largely, on European languages. And yes, this does make it easier for a European to learn than a Chinese person, for example. However, it's still much, much easier to learn than English. As a native speaker of English, it comes naturally to you. To people who are learning it, it's quite difficult. You have irregular pronunciation (oh, how irregular!), irregular orthography, irregular grammar, prepositions are a pain in the ass to learn to use correctly, and English is extremely idiomatic. And then you have your grammar puritans who chastise you for splitting infinitives and ending your sentences with a preposition  Roll Eyes

    Anyway, while it takes a bit longer for a Chinese person to learn Esperanto, they will become very fluent in Esperanto eventually. This is often not the case with English. As Prof. Bruce Sherwood once said "Which is more just -- for the American to spend one year learning Esperanto and the Japanese to spend two years at it, or for the American to spend no time learning English while the Japanese spends ten years studying it -- and failing to learn it?"

    Personally, I think English is a pretty simple language to learn, for the most part. The only thing learners might find difficult is verb tenses, but aside from that it's fairly straight forward.


    Verb tenses? That's the easy part Tongue

    Have you visited a non-predominantly English-speaking area and interacted with the locals?

    Anyway, I'm just musing aloud. Like I say, I hardly have opinions never mind thought-out ones on this subject.


    If you want, you could read my posts on the main Esperanto thread where I discuss quite a few aspects of the language and the culture, all in one place, if you haven't already.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #37 - January 05, 2012, 08:58 PM

    If you consider this "pathetic", then it's clear you're quite biased against Esperanto.

    The thing is, to be real swearing it has to make your grandmother faint, your kids giggle, and your uncle start angrily ranting at you to behave yourself. If it doesn't instinctively elicit those reactions, it's a pale imitation. Has Esperanto reached that point yet? grin12

    And then you have your grammar puritans who chastise you for splitting infinitives and ending your sentences with a preposition  Roll Eyes

    Fuck 'em. Smiley

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #38 - January 05, 2012, 09:09 PM

    The thing is, to be real swearing it has to make your grandmother faint, your kids giggle, and your uncle start angrily ranting at you to behave yourself. If it doesn't instinctively elicit those reactions, it's a pale imitation. Has Esperanto reached that point yet? grin12


    I can't really tell since I don't have much Sprachgefühl at the moment. Will get back to you on this in a couple of years.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #39 - January 05, 2012, 09:25 PM

    Quote
    You've also got the problem of difficulty and irregularity. And hurt sentiments Tongue Why Latin and not Sanskrit or Ancient Greek? If I had to choose, I'd probably choose Sanskrit, since I've heard incredibly things about the language. I don't know if it was propaganda (and given the things we Arabs often say about Arabic, it very well could've been), but it was really impressive.


    Well, Sanskrit and Ancient Greek are probably more difficult to learn than Latin, having unfamiliar alphabets and weird diacritics, not to mention their complex systems of declension and mood. Of course, they're probably fascinating languages, but not really for beginners to learn. Latin at any rate, while not necessarily easy by any means, it's more familiar than the other two.

    And I've heard some pretty wibbly-wobbly things about Hebrew, too. Some among the Jews call it Lashon Hakodesh, literally, The Holy Tongue. They esteem Hebrew just as the Muslims esteem Arabic. There are some curious things about it though. For instance the words for 'ear' (אזן) and 'balance' (מאזן) share the same root. The word for year (שנה) has the numerical value of 355, the number of days in the Hebrew lunisolar calender, as well as the word for 'week' (שבוע) having the same root as the word for 'seven' (שבע), and its numerical value being 378, a multiple of seven.

    Oh, and here's a neat scene from the movie Pi.  Smiley

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WFmWhwyA0NU

    Quote
    To people who are learning it, it's quite difficult.


    As is the case with learning any language, English, as far as I can tell, is just relatively easy and simpler than many others.

    Quote
    You have irregular pronunciation (oh, how irregular!), irregular orthography, irregular grammar, prepositions are a pain in the ass to learn to use correctly, and English is extremely idiomatic.


    Well, loads of languages have irregular pronunciation, especially one as widely-spoken as English. I make no excuses for the orthography though, yes, it's not great. And I think the grammar isn't too hard, it's fairly straight-forward, based on word order rather than a load of complicated inflexions, and so on. Prepositions on the other hand can be a pain in the ass, even for me sometimes, phrasal verbs too. And metaphorical, idiomatic expressions are extremely common in all languages, I don't think you can fault English for that.  Tongue

    And nobody really takes the prescriptivists seriously anymore anyway.  Smiley They based their ideas on the grammatical forms of Latin, which obviously can't be applied to a language as different as English.

    Quote
    Anyway, while it takes a bit longer for a Chinese person to learn Esperanto, they will become very fluent in Esperanto eventually. This is often not the case with English. As Prof. Bruce Sherwood once said "Which is more just -- for the American to spend one year learning Esperanto and the Japanese to spend two years at it, or for the American to spend no time learning English while the Japanese spends ten years studying it -- and failing to learn it?"


    I disagree. I think a person, if they really applied themselves to it, could learn pretty much any language in 10 years.

    Quote
    Verb tenses? That's the easy part


    Well, I've heard otherwise. I guess different people find some parts more difficult than others.

    Quote
    Have you visited a non-predominantly English-speaking area and interacted with the locals?


    Does the east end of Glasgow count?  parrot

    Quote
    If you want, you could read my posts on the main Esperanto thread where I discuss quite a few aspects of the language and the culture, all in one place, if you haven't already.


    I'm quite content with my indifference on this particular subject, I'm afraid.  Tongue

  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #40 - January 05, 2012, 09:45 PM

    And I've heard some pretty wibbly-wobbly things about Hebrew, too. Some among the Jews call it Lashon Hakodesh, literally, The Holy Tongue. They esteem Hebrew just as the Muslims esteem Arabic. There are some curious things about it though. For instance the words for 'ear' (אזן) and 'balance' (מאזן) share the same root. The word for year (שנה) has the numerical value of 355, the number of days in the Hebrew lunisolar calender, as well as the word for 'week' (שבוע) having the same root as the word for 'seven' (שבע), and its numerical value being 378, a multiple of seven.


    Wow, that's really cool! By the way, the word for "week" in Arabic is derived from the word "seven" as well.

    As is the case with learning any language, English, as far as I can tell, is just relatively easy and simpler than many others.

    Well, loads of languages have irregular pronunciation, especially one as widely-spoken as English. I make no excuses for the orthography though, yes, it's not great. And I think the grammar isn't too hard, it's fairly straight-forward, based on word order rather than a load of complicated inflexions, and so on. Prepositions on the other hand can be a pain in the ass, even for me sometimes, phrasal verbs too. And metaphorical, idiomatic expressions are extremely common in all languages, I don't think you can fault English for that.  Tongue


    True, I completely agree here. But you're comparing English to other national languages, and I'm comparing it to conlangs.

    I disagree. I think a person, if they really applied themselves to it, could learn pretty much any language in 10 years.


    Absolutely, but we're talking about school here, where you're FORCED to learn the language. If you try hard, you definitely will, but most students don't, and they end up speaking it poorly, if at all.


    I'm quite content with my indifference on this particular subject, I'm afraid.  Tongue



    It's just like 3 pages, and it's got a lot of info because so many points were raised.

    By the way, have you tried learning/do you speak any other languages?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #41 - January 05, 2012, 10:01 PM

    Quote
    Wow, that's really cool! By the way, the word for "week" in Arabic is derived from the word "seven" as well.


    Lol, I'm surprised I never noticed that before, it's practically the exact same letters in the same order, with the exception of the initial alef in the Arabic.

    Quote
    It's just like 3 pages, and it's got a lot of info because so many points were raised.


    Yeah, but I'm friggin' lazy.  cool2

    Quote
    By the way, have you tried learning/do you speak any other languages?


    I've studied, and pretty much continue to study, other languages, but I'm not yet fluent in any others.

    Here's a funny attempt on my part to parle po-russkij: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=14338.msg398036#msg398036
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #42 - January 05, 2012, 10:10 PM

    Haha Tongue

    What are the languages you've studied?

    BTW, if you don't consider yourself fluent in any of them, you might find this (and the blog as a whole!) interesting.

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #43 - January 05, 2012, 10:22 PM

    By the way, I just checked, and there's 354 days in the Hebrew calendar year (on average)!  finmad

    I guess that means "year" should be "שנד"!

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
  • Re: A question: Esperanto or Basque?
     Reply #44 - January 05, 2012, 10:29 PM

    BTW, do you worship Vladimir Vysotsky like I do?

    قل للمليحة في الخمار الأسود
    مـاذا فـعــلت بــناسـك مـتـعـبد

    قـد كـان شـمّر لــلـصلاة ثـيابه
    حتى خـطرت له بباب المسجد

    ردي عليـه صـلاتـه وصيـامــه
    لا تـقــتـلــيه بـحـق ديــن محمد
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