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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islamic influences on xianity

 (Read 2046 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islamic influences on xianity
     OP - March 03, 2012, 05:16 PM

    Ideas always mix and match and co-evolve - symbiosis, memes, syncretism.

    Has anyone proposed that puritanism and protestantism might be Islamic imports into xianity?

    What makes me wonder are:

     the emphases against idolatry - the puritans destroyed thousands of priceless art works in churches and whitewashed the walls

    the concept of the Bible as the word of God.  As I undrstand it xianity wasn't that fussed about the Bible - they did take three hundred years to complete it and the existence of very different catholic and protestant bibles with the apocrypha is evidence of this.  They wrote creeds not obviously based on the Bible.

    Sola Scriptura sounds like a direct take from Islam.



    So how has Islam influenced xianity?

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #1 - March 03, 2012, 06:11 PM

    What do you mean by Christianity? Do you mean Christian societies or Christian in theological terms? You could make a case that Islam and Muslims have influenced Christian societies in the past but in a purely religious sense I don't think there's really much of an influence.

    Christianity had been growing and expanding half a millenia before Muhammad was born with many of it's creeds and laws already laid down. You could show parallels in certain protestant doctrines but the thing about parallels is that there is no connection.   

  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #2 - March 04, 2012, 12:07 PM

    My background is sociology - there are always interactions and feedbacks - things change for both when one meets the other.

    The interactions between xianity and Islam have always been huge - trade, silk road, sharing stories, war, ideological clashes.

    I suppose I am also using a James Burke Connections idea.

    The ways of being we have now are the results of interactions.  The labels we put on ourselves - I am a Muslim, I am a Xian, I am an atheist, are results of histories and interactions and power relationships.  

    Things become interesting if one can say oh there is a flavour of that over there.  Yes it can also be taken back that originally came from there, but working out the influences is fascinating.

    I find comments about parallels puzzling.  They feel like attempts to close down discussion, as if there is something there but lets poo poo it, mustn't go there!   parrot

    Quote
    Connections explores an Alternative View of Change (the subtitle of the series) that rejects the conventional linear and teleological view of historical progress. Burke contends that one cannot consider the development of any particular piece of the modern world in isolation.

    Rather, the entire gestalt of the modern world is the result of a web of interconnected events, each one consisting of a person or group acting for reasons of their own (e.g., profit, curiosity, religious) motivations with no concept of the final, modern result of what either their or their contemporaries’ actions finally led to. The interplay of the results of these isolated events is what drives history and innovation, and is also the main focus of the series and its sequels.

    To demonstrate this view, Burke begins each episode with a particular event or innovation in the past (usually Ancient or Medieval times) and traces the path from that event through a series of seemingly unrelated connections to a fundamental and essential aspect of the modern world. For example, The Long Chain episode traces the invention of plastics from the development of the fluyt, a type of Dutch cargo ship.


    http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/james-burke-connections/

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #3 - March 04, 2012, 12:15 PM

    I don't know, I would say it's more Judaism > xtianity > Islam in terms of the line of influence.

    Idols aren't allowed in Judaism.  The razing of the idols is a common theme, so puritans being obssessed with idols worship doesn't necessarily need to emerge from an islamic influence. 

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #4 - March 04, 2012, 12:36 PM

    Xianity can be understood as a very Greek interpretation of Judaism.  It isn't really that monotheistic - Jesus being God immediately makes two, Holy Spirit three, then add in angels and demons and saints - reality for most of xianity's history - and actually now when you look at Orthodoxy and Catholicism - has been a big god with a son and a whole myriad of gods - catholics still pray to saints - you can only pray to a god by definition.

    xianity makes more sense as a form of western hinduism!

    It is only with protestantism that a more pure version arises, there are earlier ones like St Francis but not that concerned with purity.

    I think there is a clear connection to Islam from the crusades onwards that make far more sense as puritanism and sola scriptura being imports.

    Nothing is ever obvious - it is always reinterpreted in the light of the prior experience of the recipient.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #5 - March 07, 2012, 01:01 PM

    Iconoclasm, certainly was an influence of Islam. You may have right whit "Sola Scriptura". For both: Orthodoxy and Catholicism, authority does not comes from the Bible, the Bible is highly respected because it comes from the church, and because the church has put her seal or authority and approve the bible.
    The concept "Sola Scriptura" appeared in Western Christianity out of the blue. After all Jesus has written only once some words on the sand, and He has instructed his disciples, to go and transmit the good news, not to write books.
    The Bible has emerged as a liturgical necessity, to be used in the church, in a period in which, most people did not know to read. For centuries, not even all the churches could afford to purchase a whole Bible (handwritten in that time). And suddenly, someone invented the concept "Sola Scriptura.
    Your hypothesis is interesting, and should be investigated further.

    What is also interesting is  the influence of Eastern Christianity on Islam, especially on the Greek philosophy line, but also including, medicine and astronomy.

    I want to live for immortality, and I will accept no compromise. from F.Dostoyevsky
    Le XXI?me si?cle sera spirituel ou ne sera pas - Andr? Malraux
    Eu cand discut cu un ateu e ca si cum as discuta cu usa - Petre Tutea
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #6 - March 07, 2012, 02:29 PM

    Thank you!

    How would one explore this further?

    Imagine KJVists and similar biblical literalists and puritan type fundamentalists finding their ideas are actually from Islam!

     Cause a few harrumphs that would!

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #7 - March 07, 2012, 02:54 PM

    islam influence on xianity... kick and spit on their graves
    maybe then the kaffirs will fear the muslims  Roll Eyes

    When one door of happiness closes, another opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us.
    Helen Keller
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #8 - March 07, 2012, 03:19 PM

    Iconoclasm, certainly was an influence of Islam.


    Christian Iconoclasm predates Islam.

     
    You may have right whit "Sola Scriptura". For both: Orthodoxy and Catholicism, authority does not comes from the Bible, the Bible is highly respected because it comes from the church, and because the church has put her seal or authority and approve the bible.


    In both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, authority does come from the bible as well as other sources.

    The concept of "Sola Scriptura" appeared in Western Christianity out of the blue.


    It was called the Protestant reformation.


    The Bible has emerged as a liturgical necessity, to be used in the church, in a period in which, most people did not know to read. For centuries, not even all the churches could afford to purchase a whole Bible (handwritten in that time). And suddenly, someone invented the concept "Sola Scriptura.


    Sola Scriptura is a dcotrine that developed after the print press was invented.






  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #9 - March 07, 2012, 07:20 PM

    Quote
    In both Orthodoxy and Catholicism, authority does come from the bible as well as other sources.


    No, is exactly the opposite, the bible authority is validated by the church, because the church decided what gospel are canonical.
    We as Orthodox used to say the Bible springing from our tradition.

    Quote
    Christian Iconoclasm predates Islam.


    Christian Iconoclasm  726-843

    I want to live for immortality, and I will accept no compromise. from F.Dostoyevsky
    Le XXI?me si?cle sera spirituel ou ne sera pas - Andr? Malraux
    Eu cand discut cu un ateu e ca si cum as discuta cu usa - Petre Tutea
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #10 - March 07, 2012, 08:47 PM

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/986656?uid=3738032&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&sid=47698729918967

    Bernard Lewis Translation from Arabic

    Why do we assume that only the ancient greek works were read?


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #11 - March 07, 2012, 09:09 PM

    Quote
    "In a time of tranquility and justice, the Christians have never been compelled to renounce the Gospel and to embrace the Qur'an." 11 As a result of the tolerance displayed by Islam, the incredibly rich language of the Muslims became the official language of literature and scholarship in Spain for all by the year 1000. Christians, Jews, and Muslims alike devoted their time in studying Arabic. Christians essentially spoke Arabic, which was "often better than their Latin." 12 They absorbed the Arabic culture so much so that they began to be called, "mozarabs" a corruption of "must'arib" meaning the "Arabized ones." Furthermore, the Christian Priest Alvaro complained in the 9th century that Christians preferred to read Arabic writings and studied Muslim theologians and philosophers rather than their own. He exclaimed, "Oh, the pain and the sorrow! The Christians have even forgotten their own language, and in every thousand you will not find one who can write a letter in respectable Latin to a friend, while as soon as they have to write Arabic, there is no difficulty in finding a whole multitude who can express themselves with the greatest elegance in this language..." 13


    http://www.hispanicmuslims.com/andalusia/andalusia.html  (article is pro islam!)

    Quote
    Martin Luther, the founder of Protestantism, was also educated in Andalusia.


    Google ays this is in above text but I cannot see it, and I cannot find corroboration.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #12 - March 07, 2012, 09:21 PM

    Quote
    Protestantism and Islam entered into contact during the 16th century, at a time when Protestant movements in northern Europe coincided with the expansion of the Ottoman Empire in southern Europe. As both were in conflict with the Catholic Holy Roman Empire, numerous exchanges occurred, exploring religious similarities and the possibility of trade and military alliances.

    Relations became more conflictual in the early modern and modern periods, although recent attempts have been made at rapprochement. In terms of comparative religion, there also interesting similarities, as well as differences, in both religious approaches.

    Following the Turkish conquest of Constantinople in 1453 by Mehmet II and the unification of the Middle East under Selim I, Suleiman the Magnificent, the son of Selim, managed to expand Ottoman rule to Balkans. The Habsburg Empire thus entered into direct conflict with the Ottomans.

    At the same time the Protestant Reformation was taking place in numerous areas of northern and central Europe, in harsh opposition to Papal authority and the Holy Roman Empire led by Emperor Charles V. This situation led the Protestants to consider various forms of cooperation and rapprochement (religious, commercial, military) with the Muslim world, in opposition to their common Habsburg enemy.

    [edit]Early religious accommodation (16th-17th century)



    During the development of the Reformation, Protestantism and Islam were considered closer to each other than they were to Catholicism: "Islam was seen as closer to Protestantism in banning images from places of worship, in not treating marriage as a sacrament and in rejecting monastic orders".[1]

    [edit]Mutual tolerance

    The Sultan of the Ottoman Empire was known for his tolerance of the Christian and Jewish faiths within his dominions, whereas the King of Spain did not tolerate the Protestant faith.[2] The Ottoman Empire was indeed known at that time for its religious tolerance. Various religious refugees, such as the Huguenots, some Anglicans, Quakers, Anabaptists or even Jesuits or Capuchins were able to find refuge at Istanbul and in the Ottoman Empire,[3] where they were given right of residence and worship.[4] Further, the Ottomans supported the Calvinists in Transylvania and Hungary but also in France.[5] The contemporary French thinker Jean Bodin wrote:[6]

    "The great emperor of the Turks does with as great devotion as any prince in the world honour and observe the religion by him received from his ancestors, and yet detests he not the strange religions of others; but on the contrary permits every man to live according to his conscience: yes, and that more is, near unto his palace at Pera, suffers four diverse religions viz. that of the Jews, that of the Christians, that of the Grecians, and that of the Mahometans"
    —Jean Bodin.[5]

    Martin Luther, in his 1528 pamphlet, On War against the Turk, calls for the Germans to resist the Ottoman invasion of Europe, as the catastrophic Siege of Vienna was lurking, but expressed views of Islam which, compared with his virulent anti-Semitism, are relatively mild.[7] On the one hand, Luther extensively criticized the principles of Islam; on the other hand, he also expressed tolerance for the Islamic faith:

    "Let the Turk believe and live as he will, just as one lets the papacy and other false Christians live."

    —Excerpt from On war against the Turk, 1529.[8]

    However, this statement mentions "Turks", and it is not clear whether the meaning was of "Turks" as a representation of the specific rule of the Ottoman empire, or as a representation of of Islam in general.
    Martin Luther's ambivalence also appears in one of his other comments, in which he said that "A smart Turk makes a better ruler than a dumb Christian".[9]
    [edit]Efforts at doctrinal rapprochement

    Martin Luther also took note of the similarities between Islam and Protestantism in the rejection of idols, although he noted Islam was much more drastic in its complete rejection of images. In On War against the Turk, Luther is actually less critical of the Turks than he is of the Pope, whom he calls an anti-Christ, or the Jews, whom he describes as "the Devil incarnate".[10] He urges his contemporaries to also see the good aspects in the Turks, and refers to some who were favourable to the Ottoman Empire, and "who actually want the Turk to come and rule, because they think that our German people are wild and uncivilized - indeed that they are half-devil and half-man".[11]

    The Ottomans also felt closer to the Protestants than to the Catholics. At one point, a letter was sent from Suleiman the Magnificent to the "Lutherans" in Flanders, claiming that he felt close to them, "since they did not worship idols, believed in one God and fought against the Pope and Emperor".[12][13]

    This notion of religious similarities was again taken up in epistolary exchanges between Elizabeth I of England and Sultan Murad III.[14] In one correspondence, Murad entertained the notion that Islam and Protestantism had "much more in common than either did with Roman Catholicism, as both rejected the worship of idols", and argued for an alliance between England and the Ottoman Empire.[15]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_Protestantism

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Re: Islamic influences on xianity
     Reply #13 - March 07, 2012, 10:03 PM

    Ideas always mix and match and co-evolve - symbiosis, memes, syncretism.

    Has anyone proposed that puritanism and protestantism might be Islamic imports into xianity?

    What makes me wonder are:

     the emphases against idolatry - the puritans destroyed thousands of priceless art works in churches and whitewashed the walls

    I don't think you have to consider Islam when talking about Puritans. They certainly weren't fans of any religion other than their own, and there are verses in the Bible that condemn idolatry.

    Same goes for Protestantism. That was a reaction against the corruption of the Catholic church, and did not require any influence from Islam to kick it off.

    If you want to consider the UK situation when the Anglicans split from the Catholics, that was purely down to Henry VIII wanting children. Again, nothing to do with Islam.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
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