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 Topic: The only wonderful thing about the Quran

 (Read 2268 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     OP - September 21, 2012, 01:06 AM

    Hi. Just sharing some thoughts. I'm not sure if this is the right place for this thread, sorry.

    I just wanted to say that Arabic is probably the only language on earth that didn't undergo any major change for a very long time. I can't think of any language that could be similar to Arabic in terms of evolution.  Languages change over time. Sometimes they have major changes in a relatively short period. Arabic doesn't seem to have undergone any major change since the Quran was invented  Tongue

    Well it is interesting (but it's not a miracle to me Wink). It is interesting because I a native speaker of Arabic can understand poems and things said even in the pre-Islamic era (with a dictionary, of course). English for example had major changes in a very short time, like the change in negation in Middle English*.

    I think even Hebrew is facing major changes.

    Arabic changes for sure (because all languages change) but the changes in Arabic are always not significant enough to think of them as major changes (like changes in syntax).

    The funny thing is that Arabic survives with the Quran, but at the same time the language of the Quran is full of special grammatical errors lol.

    You'll always hear Arabic grammarians/linguists say "but the Quran says.." when they're discussing grammar as if it is wholly acceptable. Mohammed unintentionally committed some grammatical errors in the Quran. Umar bin Al Khattab once commented on something that seemed awkward in the Quran and he actually corrected it!

    There is another awkward thing in the Quran, which is how Mohammed played with tenses. He used the present tense then moved in a very disturbing way to the past tense, and so forth. This is insane, but surprisingly was effective on the hearers.

    Arab linguists say that Arabic consists of prose, poetry and the Quran. The Quran to them is neither prose nor poetry. Well, lol Smiley I can tell that Arabs are staying behind even in linguistics, unfortunately. You know that Muslim scholars tell people to follow the Quran and Sunna strictly. Arabic linguists, who are usually Arab, are just like those extremists. Say this and don't say that. Prescribing is a very old phase in linguistics, not taking into consideration the time and change, but many Arabs still believe in pure Arabic. Those purists exist all over the world, but I feel they're a bit more extreme when it comes to Arabic.

    I remember a discussion with an Arab linguistics researcher. He was asked to define 'mother language.' He said it's Arabic since all human beings will speak Arabic in heaven.

    Give me a break Smiley

    Still, I love the fact that I speak the same language that was spoken by Tarafa bin Al Abd (one of the most famous poets who lived in the pre-Islamic era). I just think it's interesting!

    *What I mean by the change in negation in English is the shift from the negator 'ne' that comes before the verb to the negator 'not' coming after the verb.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #1 - September 21, 2012, 01:20 AM


    This is English from 600 years ago.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QE0MtENfOMU

    You can understand words if you tune your ears in. But it sounds so Scandinavian.


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #2 - September 21, 2012, 01:23 AM

    Say this and don't say that. Prescribing is a very old phase in linguistics, not taking into consideration the time and change, but many Arabs still believe in pure Arabic. Those purists exist all over the world,

    Allo allo, Académie française.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #3 - September 21, 2012, 01:43 AM

    What I mean by the change in negation in English is the shift from the negator 'ne' that comes before the verb to the negator 'not' coming after the verb. Smiley

    I think I should have talked about English too. I'm not saying Arabic is superior or anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually I believe Arabic is not that effective today (Arabs to blame) and I should explain why. Maybe I should add a few points about English...
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #4 - September 21, 2012, 10:41 AM

    What I mean by the change in negation in English is the shift from the negator 'ne' that comes before the verb to the negator 'not' coming after the verb. Smiley

    I think I should have talked about English too. I'm not saying Arabic is superior or anything!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually I believe Arabic is not that effective today (Arabs to blame) and explain why. Maybe I should add a few points about English...

    Hi Yume89., these links may be useful in discussing exploration of  evolution of languages around the globe..

    http://brasileiracrowley.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/language-tree.gif  

    The Evolution of the languages - An analog for organismal evolution

    Evolution of Language Takes Unexpected Turn

    Arabic language history

    But such references and discussion will not work with a rabid Islamic Arab superior mindset for e.g with fools like Hamza Tortoise   that is CEMB Klingschor  ..

    We can not discuss such advance subjects  as evolution of Languages with these STUPID high school dropouts with that arrogant  Islamic  attitudes where they are brain washed to believe in Arabic  linguistic dominance because silly books like Quran/hadith are allegedly revealed by allahgod  in that language .  It is like running in circles with  book say so attitude shouting  hadith like  

    احبوا العرب لثلاث، لاني عربي، ولان القران عربي، وكلام اهل الجنة عربي


    "The Arabic language is superior
    because the Qur’an is in Arabic
    and because the inhabitants of Paradise speak Arabic.”


    These primitive mindsets needs different approach..




    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #5 - September 21, 2012, 01:02 PM

    Hi Yume89., these links may be useful in discussing exploration of  evolution of languages around the globe..

    http://brasileiracrowley.files.wordpress.com/2012/04/language-tree.gif  

    The Evolution of the languages - An analog for organismal evolution

    Evolution of Language Takes Unexpected Turn

    Arabic language history

    But such references and discussion will not work with a rabid Islamic Arab superior mindset for e.g with fools like Hamza Tortoise   that is CEMB Klingschor  ..

    We can not discuss such advance subjects  as evolution of Languages with these STUPID high school dropouts with that arrogant  Islamic  attitudes where they are brain washed to believe in Arabic  linguistic dominance because silly books like Quran/hadith are allegedly revealed by allahgod  in that language .  It is like running in circles with  book say so attitude shouting  hadith like  

    احبوا العرب لثلاث، لاني عربي، ولان القران عربي، وكلام اهل الجنة عربي


    "The Arabic language is superior
    because the Qur’an is in Arabic
    and because the inhabitants of Paradise speak Arabic.”


    These primitive mindsets needs different approach..







    Lmao



    The World is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion.
                                   Thomas Paine

    Facts do not cease to exist because they are ignored !- Aldous Huxley
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #6 - September 21, 2012, 01:33 PM

    It is not objective to claim a language is better than another language. Linguists try to make linguistics more scientific. Those who support a certain language because of a certain ideology are confused! Arabic does change as I mentioned before. Modern Arabic and classic Arabic for example aren't the same, but their syntax is definitely the same! We have also diglossia that resulted in so many dialects in the Arab world, and who knows what will happen to these dialects; they may turn into new languages later.

    Arabic is not that useful today if I can say. That's due to the fact that Arabs didn't contribute much to the industry and modernization of the world. Arabic kinda couldn't keep up with the increase of information and vocabulary all over the world. English is much more accurate than Arabic. That's what I usually notice! >.<"

    I learned a lot because of English. I could see things I couldn't see before. It helps me understand things I couldn't understand before. To me English is much more important than Arabic. It's not because it's the language of globalization, but it's because Arabs can learn a lot from English speaking communities. 
  • The only wonderful thing about the Qur’an is this:
     Reply #7 - September 21, 2012, 01:45 PM

     
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #8 - September 21, 2012, 02:06 PM

    Hi. Just sharing some thoughts. I'm not sure if this is the right place for this thread, sorry.

    I just wanted to say that Arabic is probably the only language on earth that didn't undergo any major change for a very long time. I can't think of any language that could be similar to Arabic in terms of evolution.  Languages change over time. Sometimes they have major changes in a relatively short period. Arabic doesn't seem to have undergone any major change since the Quran was invented  Tongue


    It is a conservative culture so the language reflects this aswell. But also the fact that you have so many Arabs reciting the Quran only helps to preserve the language. When I vistied Egypt I would see people sitting on the subway or on street corners reciting the Quran and nodding their heads as they did it.

    If Greeks were in the habit of reciting the works of Homer or Plato then I can imagine that modern Greek would probably still be very similar to Ancient Greek.

    I remember a discussion with an Arab linguistics researcher. He was asked to define 'mother language.' He said it's Arabic since all human beings will speak Arabic in heaven.


    Lol, and he calls himself a linguist?  Roll Eyes


    Still, I love the fact that I speak the same language that was spoken by Tarafa bin Al Abd (one of the most famous poets who lived in the pre-Islamic era). I just think it's interesting!


    Why not post some of his poems.

    Hey so I have heard some people arguing that the language of the Quran is derived from Northern Arabic dialects rather than Southern Arabic dialects which lends more weight to the idea espoused in Tom Holland's book that the Quran was developed in the area of Northern Arabia, Jordan and the Sinai, rather than the Hejaz region of Mecca. Is there any firm evidence for the version of Arabic that was spoken in the Hejaz in pre-islamic times? I.e. are there any pre-Islamic inscriptions in that area? If so are they written in the northern or the southern versions of Arabic?

    I think if it can be confirmed that they did not even speak Quranic Arabic in the Hejaz then that pretty much confirms that the Quran could not have come from there.


    Also on another unrelated question about Semitic languages. What do people think about the origin of the Semitic languages in general? I.e. the "Proto-Semitic" language from which Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Phoenician all descend, where does it originate? I think there is a dispute in the Academic community right? But what is the most likely origin?

    I had a discussion on a history forum with a Muslim convert about a year ago. He had pretty limited knowledge on certain aspects of Islamic history, but he did seem to know a hell of a lot about linguistics, he argued that the Semitic languages originated deep inside the Arabian peninsula, and by consequence he argued that it was really the Arabs that had founded all the great ancient civilizations of the Middle East. I.e. the Assyrians, the Akkadians, the Babylonian and even the Israelites were all descended from people that had migrated to those areas from within the Arabian Peninsula.

    I thought that was pretty interesting, but then when I did some preliminary research on the internet it seemed from what I found that many linguists actually argued that Semitic languages originated in Mesopotamia, not Arabia. So I am not sure who is right.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #9 - September 21, 2012, 02:15 PM

    I learned a lot because of English. I could see things I couldn't see before. It helps me understand things I couldn't understand before. 


    Really? What do you mean by this? Do you mean that it allowed you to read stuff that enabled you to learn new things? Or do you mean that the language itself, the way it is structured, is insightful in some way?
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #10 - September 21, 2012, 02:19 PM

    It means that English is the true language and, despite changes, has existed eternally and yet unchanged since the start of time. god is an Englishman.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #11 - September 21, 2012, 06:01 PM

    It is a conservative culture so the language reflects this aswell. But also the fact that you have so many Arabs reciting the Quran only helps to preserve the language. When I vistied Egypt I would see people sitting on the subway or on street corners reciting the Quran and nodding their heads as they did it.

    If Greeks were in the habit of reciting the works of Homer or Plato then I can imagine that modern Greek would probably still be very similar to Ancient Greek.

    Lol, and he calls himself a linguist?  Roll Eyes


    Why not post some of his poems.

    Hey so I have heard some people arguing that the language of the Quran is derived from Northern Arabic dialects rather than Southern Arabic dialects which lends more weight to the idea espoused in Tom Holland's book that the Quran was developed in the area of Northern Arabia, Jordan and the Sinai, rather than the Hejaz region of Mecca. Is there any firm evidence for the version of Arabic that was spoken in the Hejaz in pre-islamic times? I.e. are there any pre-Islamic inscriptions in that area? If so are they written in the northern or the southern versions of Arabic?

    I think if it can be confirmed that they did not even speak Quranic Arabic in the Hejaz then that pretty much confirms that the Quran could not have come from there.


    Also on another unrelated question about Semitic languages. What do people think about the origin of the Semitic languages in general? I.e. the "Proto-Semitic" language from which Arabic, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Phoenician all descend, where does it originate? I think there is a dispute in the Academic community right? But what is the most likely origin?

    I had a discussion on a history forum with a Muslim convert about a year ago. He had pretty limited knowledge on certain aspects of Islamic history, but he did seem to know a hell of a lot about linguistics, he argued that the Semitic languages originated deep inside the Arabian peninsula, and by consequence he argued that it was really the Arabs that had founded all the great ancient civilizations of the Middle East. I.e. the Assyrians, the Akkadians, the Babylonian and even the Israelites were all descended from people that had migrated to those areas from within the Arabian Peninsula.

    I thought that was pretty interesting, but then when I did some preliminary research on the internet it seemed from what I found that many linguists actually argued that Semitic languages originated in Mesopotamia, not Arabia. So I am not sure who is right.



    I haven't read any book by Tom Holland, but I think he was talking about the possibility that the Quran was written by the Umayyads, right? It's said that Al Hajjaj bin Yusuf rewrote the Quran and deleted many verses in it. One of the deleted verses was about stoning adulterers. It was mentioned by Umar bin AlKhattab, the second khalifa of Mohammed, but never by the version of the Quran we have today.

    Everything is possible. But we shouldn't forget that the Prophet traveled  to the north of the Arabian peninsula. He was able to listen and borrow words or create words based on what he heard. I remember a hadith in which he was imitating the dialect of an Arab tribe that used to say 'am' instead of 'al' the definite particle. He was kinda acquainted with different dialects.

    As for the origin of the semitic languages, that's a very complicated issue you know. Honestly, I am not interested in the history of languages as much as in contrastive linguistics. It is very difficult to trace languages in history (which is why modern linguistics turned to synchronic studies I believe). I think Mehri, a semitic language spoken in Yemen, Oman, and Kuwait, may reveal part of the truth if there is still confusion over this matter, and of course when archaeological studies are carried out in those regions to know how old it is.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #12 - September 21, 2012, 06:14 PM

    Really? What do you mean by this? Do you mean that it allowed you to read stuff that enabled you to learn new things? Or do you mean that the language itself, the way it is structured, is insightful in some way?



    I don't know how to explain this but yes, I believe English has opened my eyes Smiley I became open-minded when I started speaking English with native speakers of English. I became more aware of the world's problems.
    ---

    And at university there was a society for English and languages. You have to see their activities and plays and compare them with the other student groups. There is a huge gap in quality and content between the English society's activities and the others. There is a common annoying mindset among those who don't speak English in my country. Trust me, this is true! (but not always, of course)

  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #13 - September 21, 2012, 06:15 PM

    It means that English is the true language and, despite changes, has existed eternally and yet unchanged since the start of time. god is an Englishman.


    Lol  Wink
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #14 - September 21, 2012, 06:17 PM

    I suspect it is simply because of the ammount of information and culture one is exposed to by knowing English (i.e. books, films, music, internet, etc.), rather than anything intrinsic to the language itself.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #15 - September 21, 2012, 06:23 PM

    Yes that's true, but sometimes learning single words can be very educational too. Like the word 'chauvinism' or 'cult'. 'Cult' doesn't really have a fixed translation in Arabic. Plus, the meaning it has isn't even transferred in any translation.
  • Re: The only wonderful thing about the Quran
     Reply #16 - September 21, 2012, 06:32 PM

    I haven't read any book by Tom Holland, but I think he was talking about the possibility that the Quran was written by the Umayyads, right? It's said that Al Hajjaj bin Yusuf rewrote the Quran and deleted many verses in it. One of the deleted verses was about stoning adulterers. It was mentioned by Umar bin AlKhattab, the second khalifa of Mohammed, but never by the version of the Quran we have today.


    Tom Holland does not speculate on who wrote the Quran, since that is a question that is impossible to answer. There is really no way of knowing for certain who wrote it. But what we can determine by looking at the linguistic structure and the places and things that the Koran mentions, where it most likely came from.

    For example the Koran speaks of the Quraysh as being olive growers, but olive trees do not grow around Mecca, the climate is too hot and dry for that, also the historical records say that the Quraysh owned large amounts of land in Syria which doesn't seem to square with the idea that they were all the way down in the Hejaz region. Why would they own land so far away from Mecca? Anyway all of this is speculative history, none of this can really be known for certain. Holland casts doubt on certain aspects of the traditional narrative but does not claim to have all the answers. The ideas are interesting though not conclusive in my opinion.


    Everything is possible. But we shouldn't forget that the Prophet traveled  to the north of the Arabian peninsula. He was able to listen and borrow words or create words based on what he heard. I remember a hadith in which he was imitating the dialect of an Arab tribe that used to say 'am' instead of 'al' the definite particle. He was kinda acquainted with different dialects.


    Apparently there were two branches of Arabic in Pre-Islamic times, Northern Arabic (spoken in the area of Jordan) and Southern Arabic (spoken in Yemen). The Hejaz area is the area in between which is mostly desert and does not have a long history of civilization prior to Islam, in fact there is no mention of a city called "Mecca" in any historical records until about 100 years after the Hijra (except for one single mention of it in the Quran).

    The Quran is definately written in Northern Arabic, there is no doubt about that. That is what Classical and Modern Arabic are. So the question is whether they used Northern or Southern Arabic in the Hejaz.
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