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Theme Changer

 Topic: Islam and nihilism

 (Read 4902 times)
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  • Islam and nihilism
     OP - March 12, 2013, 06:54 AM

    An issue I've been mulling over: Can Islam, like Christianity, ever culminate in nihilism? Or let me encapsulate the question in less abstruse terms by subsuming it under the rubric of Hegelian/Marxist materialistic dialectics.

    I'm curious to see how many of these nutcase propagandists around the world actually come from a bourgeois/middle class background. If the working classes were educated in islamic countries, do people here suppose that they would be more inclined to dispense with the ideology? I notice a very curious master/slave relationship here. Whereas in the west we've (superficially at least) fetishised commodities, in the islamic world the polar opposite is taking place. I call it the islamic desiring machine because the plight of the working classes are so dire and humans are naturally emotional creatures. Ca boom, enter religion to fill the void, 'opiate of the people kind of thing' whereas Marx was referring to an enforced structure this isn't the case with Islam as there is a naive belief testifying to the unity of the ummah. Naturally, any intelligent person who is well-versed in history will tell you that such a dubious brotherhood never existed proceeding the death of the profit - classic cult behaviour, much?

    Islam is fundamentally a moral system that is not life affirming. All moral systems, and especially those which are not life affirming are doomed to nihilism as they rest on metaphysical premises. Metaphysics is an inherently problematic discipline that only seems to serve the purposes of pesky Kantian liberals (yes, I see Dr. Tariq Ramadan of Oxford as one, before you ask). Now we could get into whether transvaluation is a moral system within itself, but I tend to see the transvaluation or going beyond good and evil teaching in Nietzschean thought as embodying a rational morality that is post-cultural and post-societal and most importantly post-metaphysical. So, rational moral discussion that values humans as capable, intelligent individuals that are concerned with advancing the human race as one, with a spirit of cooperation that seeks to minimise harm and maximise opportunity in order to preclude conditions where master slave dialectics will prevail and hence inevitably result in conflicts and the inversion of such dialectics.

    There are various muslim esoterics who will contend that islam is the transvaluation that Nietzsche talks about, however, I respectfully disagree:
    'What was the only part of Christianity that Mohammed borrowed later on? Paul’s invention, his device for establishing priestly tyranny and organizing the mob: the belief in the immortality of the soul—that is to say, the doctrine of “judgment"' Nietzsche, The Antichrist, section 42. Notice the rhetoric utilised here. If priestly tyranny did not exist in islam it would have crumbled.

    The question is: would it be possible to offer a perspective to the islamic population (deprived of all these batshit fundies with temper tantrums) that admits to the reformist facet of Islam in 7th century arabia, a political mythos, if you will, whilst accentuating its inherent nihilism? Nihilism would be illustrated through contradictions, inconsistencies in the very essence of the faith, science, etc. I mean, I'm sure many would conclude that Lockean liberalism was remarkable for its time, but if you're an atheist you better run for your fucking life as his letter of toleration mercilessly vilified atheists and did not accept them as part of the social contract.

    Thoughts? This is being written in a very sleep deprived haze.

    TL;DR: looking for an analysis of the class dynamics of clerics vis-a-vis the average working population (preferably in islamic states)
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #1 - March 12, 2013, 04:29 PM

    Despite me taking 10 minutes to try to understand this (my vocabulary is very weak), your post is very interesting. In my honest opinion, nihilism cannot be simply illustrated through the contradictions/errors in Islam. If you have a certain group of Muslims that have been brainwashed to a permanent degree of confirmation bias, pointing out contradictions and errors is only a small percent of the effort. This must relate more towards emotion and culture.

    There is no surprise that there seems to be so many ex-Muslims, ex-Christians, etc etc in Western countries. This is because the initial spark of our rational thought processes stems from understanding that people from different religions/ideas are also human beings. Living with them, connecting with them, sharing ideas with them. There is no aspect of exclusion. Our emotional insights help us become motivated towards making rational judgements/decisions, that in turn help us realize the flaws in religion. In an Islamic country, I don't see this aspect of exclusion, the aspect of the Muslim Ummah being superior to the rest of mankind, diminishing any soon.
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #2 - March 12, 2013, 06:51 PM

    Salient points, Kutta. Would you say that islam is not so much a religion than it is a communal system grounded on moral epistemes then?

    Islam is negatively nihilistic at the moment. Can reactive nihilism ever take hold?

    When will Allah cease to serve society is my question. We're all emotional creatures. There must be a point at which the islamic world implodes and reform is necessitated, as opposed to desired. Reform will not be cognised consciously, I am aware of this. Reactive nihilism is the realisation that objective morality does not exist which thussly leads to life affirmation. What conditions would precipitate reactive  nihilism?
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #3 - March 12, 2013, 06:54 PM

    How would you view the situation in Turkey, Kutta? I am curious
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #4 - March 12, 2013, 07:37 PM

    I don't know enough about Turkey, but if you look at the history, you can clearly see an increased pattern of secularization starting from the last few years of the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk and his boys specifically abolished religious institutions and specific educational practices. The rulers forced a change.

    But the main reason why this reform happened, is because of a social belief that Turkey needs to be modernized, in order to catch up with the rest of the world, like the West. Difference in social/political ideas led to change.
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #5 - March 12, 2013, 07:51 PM

    just as a violent extremist sociological point most extremists are 19-35, middle to upper class and college educated. oddly most have engineering, and other STEM related degrees. to the extent that the poor become extremists it's almost always for pure financial gain, or they just got lucky and hit the psychopath genetic jackpot.


    I've heard that paradoxically and some in a machavalian fashion, to not to send aid to improve the lives of people where extremism breeds because it will put them into that middle class range and make them more susceptible. I wouldn't agree with that though.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #6 - March 12, 2013, 08:22 PM

    I don't know enough about Turkey, but if you look at the history, you can clearly see an increased pattern of secularization starting from the last few years of the Ottoman Empire. Ataturk and his boys specifically abolished religious institutions and specific educational practices. The rulers forced a change.

    But the main reason why this reform happened, is because of a social belief that Turkey needs to be modernized, in order to catch up with the rest of the world, like the West. Difference in social/political ideas led to change.


    And yet, the middle and upper classes of reformist Turkey enforced draconian, proto-fascist measures to bring about reform. The working class was never really reformed. The working classes are allied to the islamic, right wing party of Erdogan and co. Note how I don't use the term Islamist as turkey is still governed by a secular constitution. Of course, whether this will lead to a fundamentally conservative country is up for debate.

    So it is patent that reform cannot be enforced with success from the top down as it perpetuates
    bourgeois hegemony and proletarian ignorance.
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #7 - March 13, 2013, 06:23 PM

    Hm, to be frank, I don't know how reform can be done in Islamic countries, because it depends on each constitution. One thing's for sure though. Nothing is harder to reform than Islam.
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #8 - March 13, 2013, 06:42 PM

    i think people misunderstand nihilism, they think it's where everything goes because there's no morals or defined purpose. It's not.

    Whilst the illusion may be there, there is no sensory data that morals or purpose exist, but nearly all humans have compassion and empathy as a result of biological evolution.  We feel uncomfort and guilt if we harm others or see others in suffering, so we can prescribe how to behave so that the whole of society can live to its fullest potential.
  • Islam and nihilism
     Reply #9 - March 13, 2013, 07:23 PM

    I'm using nihilism in a Nietzschean sense here. Negative nihilism>reactive nihilism>transvaluation. Reactive nihilism is the steppingstone
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