jerusalem claim

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- salsahavok
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jerusalem claim
OP - April 14, 2013, 10:04 AM

Can anyone refer me to the claim where muslims actually have a religious claim to Jerusalem? As far as I know there is a hadith where muhammeds soul was taken to the furthest temple before ascending to the heavens on a winged horse. But who is to say it was not a pagan temple? And there were sects throughout Europe that had temples made to one god(whixh at that time was considered paganism by the paganists themselves)

Can anyone provide me with a decent challenge?
- yeezevee
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Reply #1 - April 14, 2013, 10:22 AM

Quote from: salsahavok on April 14, 2013, 10:04 AM
Can anyone refer me to the claim where muslims actually have a religious claim to Jerusalem?

greetings and welcome salsahavok., A careful read of Quran will teach you and everyone, that followers of Islam had claim on every one and everything in this universe salsahavok.

Quote
As far as I know there is a hadith where muhammeds soul was taken to the furthest temple before ascending to the heavens on a winged horse. But who is to say it was not a pagan temple? And there were sects throughout Europe that had temples made to one god(whixh at that time was considered paganism by the paganists themselves)

who cares about hadith unless some one is Muslim robot., that is written 100 years after prophet of Islam was dead..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
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Reply #2 - April 14, 2013, 10:34 AM

I welcome your greetings yeezevee.

I am just trying to make sense why would muslims claim something they don't have a right to claim.

I know they tried to claim my soul but I unshackeled their chains with my trusty sword and cut through a new path

Hadiths are important since it is the basis for assumption for muslims.

Can anyone provide me with a decent challenge?
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Reply #3 - April 14, 2013, 10:54 AM

Quote from: salsahavok on April 14, 2013, 10:34 AM
.......................
I am just trying to make sense why would muslims claim something they don't have a right to claim.

well I too trying to make sense out of the claims of Muslims and Islam for the past 10 years salsahavok . The only thing I learned discussing Islam with them is "How to run in circles"
Quote
I know they tried to claim my soul but I unshackeled their chains with my trusty sword and cut through a new path
..............

well Islam and Muslims didn't know there are swords that are made up of other materials such as Zirconium Carbide

That can slice through iron swords salsahavok.. Glad to read you., I wonder How did you get to know this forum?

with best wishes
yeezevee

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- salsahavok
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Reply #4 - April 14, 2013, 11:04 AM

Well being an ex Muslim I was looking for like minded people but I never actually registered until cemb added me on Twitter.

Some people just don't want to believe the fear factor is just too much.

Is it sharper then a samarai sword?

With sincerity
Salsahavok

Can anyone provide me with a decent challenge?
- Crunchy Cds
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Reply #5 - April 18, 2013, 03:03 PM

Some good history to research about Jersualem and why everyone is staking claim to it is, the history of the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount was like the Kaaba of the Hebrew people it was destroyed in the war by the Muslims and The Dome of the Rock was built on top of it. The Wall that the Jews pray at today is the remains of their old temple right next to the Dome of the Rock.

Mecca is suppose to be the Holy city of Islam
and Jersualem was always the Holy city of the Hebrew people & Christians long before Muhammad was even born.
Ancient artifacts and historical evidence points towards this. However Muslims claim on it has nothing to do with artifacts or history but simply because apparently

1. They conquered the city
2. Suddenly decided (even disputed) that Muhammad flew on a winged horse lady to heaven, coincidentally right over where the Jew's Temple was built.

Then when Israel came into being again in modern times the Jewish people were like, ok guys we're taking it back now. But not really because they didn't want to cause a huge unrest so the Dome of the Rock is managed by Muslims only according to the government and non-Muslims are not allowed. However there are excavations under the Dome of the Rock, kind of secretly but not, because the Jews are trying to access old artifacts that might be buried under the Dome of the Rock from their Old Temple.

Religious property is tricky because people can make up whatever the hell they want and as long as they have enough followers suddenly it is true, regardless of the lack of evidence. such as the Dome of the Rock.

The Temple Mount was HUGE, and you can see how the Dome of the Rock pretty much dwarfs the original building and just kinda stuck it in the middle. Quite fascinating but such is history, things get conquered destroyed and replaced.

But I bring this up as overwhelming physical evidence that some other religion was there LONG before the Dome of the Rock was built.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_Mount

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Reply #6 - April 18, 2013, 03:18 PM

Quote from: Crunchy Cds on April 18, 2013, 03:03 PM
Some good history to research about Jersualem and why everyone is staking claim to it is, the history of the Temple Mount. The Temple Mount was like the Kaaba of the Hebrew people it was destroyed in the war by the Muslims and The Dome of the Rock was built on top of it.

Crunchy, we have discussed this before, it really was not the Muslims that destroyed the Jewish temple there, the Romans had destroyed the Jewish temple a long time before that.

For clarity, the artistic reconstruction of the Jewish temple that you posted is of King Herod's temple, which was built in 20-19 BC and has obvious Classical Greco-Roman architectural influences. I don't think anyone really knows what the original Jewish temple built by King Solomon looked like.
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Reply #7 - April 18, 2013, 03:22 PM

^^^^OH...THANK YOU FOR ANSWERING THAT UTTER BULLSH** TONY! SAVES ME THE TIME AND STRESS OF GOING OFF ON CRUNCHY, BIG TIME!

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Reply #8 - April 18, 2013, 04:45 PM

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the original Jewish temple built by King Solomon looked like.

Solomon? Who he?

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Until recently both textual scholars and archaeologists have assumed that ancient Israel reached the stage of full state formation at the time of the united monarchy of David and Solomon. Indeed, many biblical specialists continue to believe that the earliest source of the Pentateuch is the J, or Yahwist, document — and that it was compiled in Judah in the era of David and Solomon, in the tenth century BCE. We will argue in this book that such a conclusion is highly unlikely. From an analysis of the archaeological evidence, there is no sign whatsoever of extensive literacy or any other attributes of full statehood in Judah — and in particular, in Jeru-salem — until more than two and a half centuries later, toward the end of the eighth century BCE. Of course, no archaeologist can deny that the Bible contains legends, characters, and story fragments that reach far back in time. But archaeology can show that the Torah and the Deuteronomistic History bear unmistakable hallmarks of their initial compilation in the seventh century BCE. Why this is so and what it means for our understanding of the great biblical saga is the main subject of this book.

We will see how much of the biblical narrative is a product of the hopes, fears, and ambitions of the kingdom of Judah, culminating in the reign of King Josiah at the end of the seventh century BCE. We will argue that the historical core of the Bible arose from clear political, social, and spiritual conditions and was shaped by the creativity and vision of extraordinary women and men. Much of what is commonly taken for granted as accurate history — the stories of the patriarchs, the Exodus, the conquest of Canaan, and even the saga of the glorious united monarchy of David and Solomon — are, rather, the creative expressions of a powerful religious reform movement that flourished in the kingdom of Judah in the Late Iron Age. Although these stories may have been based on certain historical kernels, they primarily reflect the ideology and the world-view of the writers. We will show how the narrative of the Bible was uniquely suited to further the religious reform and territorial ambitions of Judah during the momentous concluding decades of the seventh century BCE.

But suggesting that the most famous stories of the Bible did not happen as the Bible records them is far from implying that ancient Israel had no genuine history...

http://www.nytimes.com/books/first/f/finkelstein-bible.html

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Reply #9 - April 18, 2013, 10:35 PM

Ok the Romans destroyed it first, then it was reconquered better. my error

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Reply #10 - May 02, 2013, 12:44 AM

The Muslim claim to Jerusalem is cryptically alluded to in a number of verses of the Quran:

Quote
And He brought down those who supported them among the People of the Scripture from their fortresses and cast terror into their hearts [so that] a party you killed, and you took captive a party.
And He caused you to inherit their land and their homes and their properties and a land which you have not trodden.

http://quran.com/33/26-27

This verse refers to the incident when Muhammad slaughtered the Banu Qurayza Jews, the Muslims "inherited" their land and their homes but also another land which they the Muslims "had not yet trodden". Presumably the Jewish homeland that God had previously given to the Israelites.

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And We had already destroyed generations before you when they wronged, and their messengers had come to them with clear proofs, but they were not to believe. Thus do We recompense the criminal people
Then We made you successors in the land after them so that We may observe how you will do.

http://quran.com/10/12-15

Here Allah promises a land that he had previously promised to others that were sent messengers but had wronged. This is not necessarily referring to the Jews or the Promised Land as all peoples supposedly received prophets but had wronged.

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And We have already written in the book [of Psalms] after the [previous] mention that the land [of Paradise] is inherited by My righteous servants.

http://quran.com/21/105

Here Allah says that his righteous servants will inherent the land (الأرض), the same land that he had promised to previous peoples in the Psalms. Sahih international puts the words "of paradise" in brackets, suggesting that this "land" is heaven, but that is just one interpretation. Another plausible interpretation is that this is referring to the land that Allah had promised to Moses.
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Reply #11 - May 02, 2013, 07:07 AM

The world would probbaly have been a better place if fewer gods had taken an interest in that area.

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Reply #12 - May 02, 2013, 07:09 AM

Quote from: Crunchy Cds on April 18, 2013, 10:35 PM
Ok the Romans destroyed it first, then it was reconquered better. my error

What do you mean by "reconquered better"?

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Reply #13 - May 02, 2013, 02:18 PM

Crunchy

The Romans destroyed the second temple, commonly known as the Herodian temple ( although Herod is only responsible for renovation and expansion work on an already working temple complex ). The first temple - ie the supposedly original Solomonic one - was destroyed by the Babylonians in 586BC. This is fairly graphically described in, IIRC, both Kings and Chronicles.

After the collapse of the Babylonians and the rise of The Persian empire in about 539BC, the exiled Judean elites are - per the accounts given in canonical Ezra and Nehemiah - allowed to return to Jerusalem and rebuild the temple. This probably took place during the 400's BC. There's certainly a temple in Jerusalem during the Seleucid era and all that trouble between Antiochus Epiphanes and those pesky Maccabeans.

After the revolt against the Romans in 70AD, the temple was completely destroyed. It was never rebuilt.
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Reply #14 - May 02, 2013, 09:21 PM

So the nasty Babylonians destroyed it first, then the Romans destroyed it seocnd, then teh Muslims came along and "reconquered it better" but without destroying any temples.

You got that clear now, Crunchy?

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Reply #15 - May 02, 2013, 09:24 PM

you've got to be the most hilarious jerk on the forum Os.
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Reply #16 - May 02, 2013, 09:26 PM

Natural Born Arsehole.

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Reply #17 - May 02, 2013, 11:00 PM

BTW, plonking churches/cathedrals on top of older pagan temples was standard Christian practice too. There are numerous examples all over Europe and Central/South America. So, even though the Dome of the Rock is a bit like a dog pissing on a lamp post to mark its territory, the Christians had been playing the same game long before the Muslims got in on the act (and yes, I know the American examples were later).

The whole Yahweh cult itself was a development of earlier religion in the area, which of course was polytheistic. Originally, Yahweh was just one of the local deities and there were shrines for the others as well. That changed once monotheism became the officially endorsed religion, so if anyone wants to bang on about destruction of indigenous religious monuments in Israel, they can start with the Jewish priesthood itself.

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