So why did Muhammad devote so much time...

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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #30 - June 06, 2012, 12:00 AM

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Now why an earth would Ibn Ishaq invent such a bizarre story of a faithful Muslim killing a crippled old man in such a gruesome way just for refusing to accept Islam? And then have Muhammad "bless him" when he hears the news. It just does not make sense.

It only doesn't make sense if you think it looks bad. Why would those under the banner of Islam view this as a bad thing at that time? They are in the ascendant, they face mockery and denial and disbelief on their path, they want to depict how those without belief, even a rickety old man, dared to defy the 'truth'. And most of all, what their arrogance earned them.

What better lesson than this, to sanctify the impulse to punish in the ultimate way, all those arrogant kaffir who they encounter in their day, denying, mocking, refusing to submit? Truly this is a great thing, a holy action. This is a manifesto!

This is all good stuff for the early Muslims - they wouldn't be embarrassed by all of this kind of thing. They really did dig it, man.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #31 - June 06, 2012, 12:08 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 05, 2012, 11:00 PM
Well actually it was not just Musaylimah, there were a whole series of other self-proclaimed prophets, Tulayha, Aswad Ansi, and Sajjah.

And just because his followers were willing to fight fiercely for him, that really says nothing about his own conviction. People will fight for a leader for a whole number of reasons. History is full of con artists and tricksters, I don't think any of them really believed any of their nonsense. People will do a whole host of strange, dishonest things for power and wealth.

I totally agree that Musaylimah was dishonest, as was Muhammad. I just think that in Musaylimah's case, he had to be more than the joke he is made out to be in the sirah. In any event, I don't think it is too far fetched to believe that both men had reasons to believe they had supernatural interactions initially , and then exploited those beliefs for their own benefit one they had followers.
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #32 - June 06, 2012, 01:27 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 05, 2012, 11:00 PM
Well actually it was not just Musaylimah, there were a whole series of other self-proclaimed prophets, Tulayha, Aswad Ansi, and Sajjah.

And just because his followers were willing to fight fiercely for him, that really says nothing about his own conviction. People will fight for a leader for a whole number of reasons. History is full of con artists and tricksters, I don't think any of them really believed any of their nonsense. People will do a whole host of strange, dishonest things for power and wealth.

On those words of Tonyt., whole series of other self-proclaimed prophets with names like Tulayha, Aswad Ansi, Sajjah or other self proclaimed prophets of that time such as Musaylimah, Saf ibn Sayyad.. I some time wonder the writers of hadith or even Quran put all these guys together and made another pseudo character "Muhammad" out of them...

anyways, this is an interesting book to read..

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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #33 - June 06, 2012, 08:32 PM

Quote from: billy on June 06, 2012, 12:00 AM
It only doesn't make sense if you think it looks bad. Why would those under the banner of Islam view this as a bad thing at that time? They are in the ascendant, they face mockery and denial and disbelief on their path, they want to depict how those without belief, even a rickety old man, dared to defy the 'truth'. And most of all, what their arrogance earned them.

What better lesson than this, to sanctify the impulse to punish in the ultimate way, all those arrogant kaffir who they encounter in their day, denying, mocking, refusing to submit? Truly this is a great thing, a holy action. This is a manifesto!

This is all good stuff for the early Muslims - they wouldn't be embarrassed by all of this kind of thing. They really did dig it, man.

Hmm, I do get what you are trying to say, but I am not convinced. I do understand the notion that there was a different morale standard at that time. But I do not believe that they had no morales whatsoever!

There are no Ancient Greek myths where the hero hides out in a cave and kills a crippled old man in such a brutal way while he sleeps, nor in the Old Testament.

If the guy had been a fierce warrior and the Muslim defeated him in single combat and then killed him gruesomly, then I could understand why Ibn Ishaq would make up a story like that. But killing a crippled old man in a cave whilst he slept? It is just bewildering why an earth anybody would make up a tale like that.

Ibn Hisham clearly was embarassed by what Ibn Ishaq wrote, which is why he had to remove some of the least morally sound stuff when he edited the original Ibn Ishaq. And that was only about 60 years later. (According to wikipedia Ibn Hisham died in 833 AD, and Ibn Ishaq in 770 AD). So clearly by the turn of the 9th Century the Muslims were already embarrassed by this stuff.

Also I think I recall that in the intro, Ibn Ishaq even makes some kind of statement to distance himself from any anger that the reader might feel, he says something like "The information in this work is presented as is, and the author cannot personally vouch for their reliability", something like that, which seems to be like he was serious about historical truth but wanted to distance himself from any backlash.
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #34 - June 06, 2012, 08:53 PM

Quote
There are no Ancient Greek myths where the hero hides out in a cave and kills a crippled old man in such a brutal way while he sleeps, nor in the Old Testament.

If the guy had been a fierce warrior and the Muslim defeated him in single combat and then killed him gruesomly, then I could understand why Ibn Ishaq would make up a story like that. But killing a crippled old man in a cave whilst he slept? It is just bewildering why an earth anybody would make up a tale like that.

Why is it bewildering? Islam is being presented as a zero sum kind of thing - that won't even tolerate the slightest disrespect. Why assume that this kind of incident wasn't pleasing to those to whom it would provide licence to act in a similar kind of manner against dissent?

Like I said, it is possible that you're applying too much nuance and compassion into your reading of it, from your perspective as a historian, and as a man living in a liberal society in the 21st Century.

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Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #35 - June 06, 2012, 09:03 PM

The thing is Tony, as I said, Hisham and Ishaq were editors and revisers - selecting and choosing and emphasising different aspects, and they did have an audience, and they did have a cause for this. That is why I say Mohammad as we understand him was a construction of these men, not just them but all who influenced and petitioned them in their writing of his narrative.

Now I'm never going to say I admire either their constructed narrative of Muhammad or the big Mo himself - but their achievement was formidable in 'inventing' or 'editing' this version of him.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #36 - June 07, 2012, 11:19 AM

Quoting from Spencer:

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1). “No record of Muhammad’s reported death in 632 appears until more than a century after that date.

2). The early accounts written by the people the Arabs conquered never mention Islam, Muhammad, or the Qur’an. They call the conquerors “Ishmaelites,” “Saracens,”“Muha- jirun,” and “Hagarians,” but never “Muslims.”

3). The Arab conquerors, in their coins and inscriptions, don’t mention Islam or the Qur’an for the first six decades of their conquests. Mentions of “Muhammad” are non-specific and on at least two occasions are accompanied by a cross. The word can be used not only as a proper name but also as an honorific.

4). The Qur’an, even by the canonical Muslim account, was not distributed in its present form until the 650s. Contradicting that standard account is the fact that neither the Arabians nor the Christians and Jews in the region mention the Qur’an until the early eighth century.

5). During the reign of the caliph Muawiya (661–680), the Arabs constructed at least one public building whose inscription was headed by a cross – a symbol abhorrent to Islam.

The lack of confirming detail in the historical record, the late development of biographical material about the Islamic prophet, the atmosphere of political and religious factionalism in which that material developed, and much more suggest that the Muhammad of Islamic tradition did not exist, or if he did, he was substantially different from how that tradition portrays him.”

One of the questions that must be addressed is why there is a “personality change” between the initial peaceful Mecca Surahs and the later violent Surahs. If the entire Quran was cooked up after the fact, there wouldn’t be that difference – as it would all come from the same “pot.”

Those are very valid points to discuss.........

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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #37 - June 20, 2012, 06:26 AM

Quote from: Tonyt on June 05, 2012, 01:07 PM
Lol that most CEMBers still believe that Mo believed his own stories.

I think you misunderstand what I mean when I say "Believed his own lies".
It is a common trait of people who have personality disorders. It is very common for people to do this, this is especially true of people who are pathological and narcissistic.
Without going to in depth with it, imagine like this:

A kid playing may pretend to be a superhero. The child will invent superpowers and stories of their super hero exploits, and treat them like they are real, so as to not spoil the play.
I did this (and am sure others here have to) as a child, and can remember it. I remember completely believing the nonsense I had been making up. Like when I was 5 and convinced myself I was a cyborg, or when I was 9 and was terrified of a ghost that was haunting my house....that I had completely made up. Things like these both made life more interesting and inflated my own ego ("I'm so cool because I'm a robot").

The more these are indulged the more important they get, and kids will make up any number of lies to continue them. Now, I dont only mean lies to other people, but more importantly to themselves. Cognitive Dissonance is the main factor here. If you wish to maintain the ego boost/self importance of being a robot, you need to believe it too...else the cognitive dissonance.

All children do this in play to certain degrees, and most grow out of it.
Now, someone with say some form of personality disorder may have this to an extreme degree, and not grow out of it in adulthood in the way children.

So imagine an adult who plays make believe like an overly imaginative child...and that gives you an idea. There are many many examples, from the cult leaders who drink their own cool aid to Kings who really believe they are gods to people who cry over tragedies that never happened

EDIT:
OF COURSE....for the sake of this we are assuming that Muhammed did exist, and as a historical character was a 'prophet' who recited the quran

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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #38 - June 21, 2012, 04:30 PM

Anyone here watch the latest season of Dexter? Without giving too much away for those who want to watch it, the bad guy in it reminded me a LOT of Muhammad, and I guess would be a legitimate and plausible explanation for why he did the things he did
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #39 - June 21, 2012, 04:39 PM

Quote from: Mohamed on June 21, 2012, 04:30 PM
Anyone here watch the latest season of Dexter? Without giving too much away for those who want to watch it, the bad guy in it reminded me a LOT of Muhammad, and I guess would be a legitimate and plausible explanation for why he did the things he did

I used to think that way., But after reading too many stories on Prophet of Islam, I came to the conclusion "Muhammad" is just a GHOST NAME., And rascals right from the beginning did all sorts of criminal activities in the name of Muhammad and criminals put together the silly stories on his name and some other criminals defend that rubbish in 20th/21st century to erect political/economical feudal power structure around Islam..

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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #40 - June 24, 2012, 05:37 PM

Because in his own deluded mind he believed he was a prophet/messenger.
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #41 - June 24, 2012, 05:38 PM

Are you saying that Mohammad didn't actually exist?
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Re: So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #42 - June 24, 2012, 08:58 PM

Quote from: Mullah Rock on June 24, 2012, 05:38 PM
Are you saying that Mohammad didn't actually exist?

Yap.., I am of the opinion that Muhammad was title to many good and bad characters of Islamic stories that we see in hadith as well as Quran. put together during those caliph times

Quran only mentions Muhammad 4 times The other one is Ahmad

Quote
1. 003.144: And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already passed away before him; if then he dies or is killed will you turn back upon your heels? And whoever turns back upon his heels!s, he will by no means do harm to Allah in the least and Allah will reward the grateful.

2.
033.040 : Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but he is the Messenger of Allah and the Last of the prophets; and Allah is cognizant of all things.

3. 047.002 : And (as for) those who believe and do good, and believe in what has been revealed to Muhammad, and it is the very truth from their Lord, He will remove their evil from them and improve their condition.

4. 048.029: Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.

The one time as Ahmad is:

061.006 : And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the messenger of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Messenger who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.

the worst is the lat 12 years of this character Muhammad that is described in hadith was such terrorizing, these stories should have been there in Jewish as well as Persian books of that time. But there is very little tat is mentioned by those writers of other cultures of that time on Muhammad.

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So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #43 - March 11, 2013, 07:16 PM

Having read Qur'an and biography of the Muhammas from various sources I came to conclussion that he suffered from a mentall illness(es). Now, you never know for sure what he had since I haven't even seen his picture. But by studying his personality through his words and actions I've come up with the following possibilities:

. Shizotypal Disorder with dellusional, narcisisstic features and OCD
. Narcisisstic Personality disorder combroid with other disorders including OCD
. Bipolar Disorder with Antisocial features ( due to the hypersexuality, pedophilia, marriage to an older woman etc ). No offence to BDs, every BD is differenct.
. Antisocial Personality disorder combroid with other disorders including OCD. ( manipulative tactics to the point that I consider him as an emotional vampire, mass killings, racissm, obsession with power and beauty, hypersexuality, being above the law just to name the few.
. Severe anxiety to the point that he may have had problems with external stimuly. I've even heard one of his best friends (I think it was Abubakr, not sure) would close his ears to avoid sound when walking in the market. He may have had similar thing himself sicne he despised music etc.

It seems to me that the guy had a constant battle with recharging himself.

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So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #44 - March 11, 2013, 09:26 PM

Simple answer to a simple question. He believed in his own shit. It is highly unlikely, in my opinion, that he would spend countless hours praying for something just for power. Maybe it was a combination of power and belief in his own superstition. Who knows?

Anyways, you could ask the same question to people like Buddha or any other founder of a religion.
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So why did Muhammad devote so much time...
Reply #45 - July 24, 2013, 12:01 PM

It's very possible Mo believed. I don't think he did but it is possible. I'm of the opinion all scripture come from liars and madmen.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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