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Theme Changer

 Topic: Al Ghazali and Kalam

 (Read 5507 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     OP - June 09, 2013, 11:48 AM

    I think Tzortzis's insistence that Ghazali came up with the Kalam 'argument' is another case of plagiarising mistakes from William Lane Craig.

    Ghazali did believe that Allah is the 'first cause', but he meant this in a completely different sense to that which is being ascribed to him. He believed that Allah is the direct first cause, of every event.
    Using Ghazali's undertanding of first cause, 'first cause' becomes meaningless, because there are no second causes. There is no long chain of cause and effect beginning with Allah. There is only Allah. There is only 'the cause'.
    It is not Allah > A > B > C > D
    It is Allah > A;   Allah > B;   Allah > C;   Allah > D

    He basically denies cause and effect in the very sense that we understand it today. The very sense in which William Lane Tzortzis fans require it to be used. He denied the very fundamentals of nature, dissolving any possibility to learn about it, and this is why he can also be charged with contributing to the decline of science in the Islamic world.

    Neither did he see an inherent problem with infinite regress.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #1 - June 09, 2013, 01:57 PM

    Why is everyone so interested in this kalam argument? If it is true, how does it establish Islam's truth in any way? All it proves is that there was some sort of cause (if it were true).

    Wow, hallelujah. Hamza's a tricky guy. He uses this argument to get a good reputation so that his "inimitable quraan" argument doesn't sound as stupid.
  • Re: Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #2 - September 24, 2013, 01:28 AM

    I think Tzortzis's insistence that Ghazali came up with the Kalam 'argument' is another case of plagiarising mistakes from William Lane Craig.


    Indeed this is true.
    Ghazali did believe that Allah is the 'first cause', but he meant this in a completely different sense to that which is being ascribed to him. He believed that Allah is the direct first cause, of every event.
    Using Ghazali's undertanding of first cause, 'first cause' becomes meaningless, because there are no second causes. There is no long chain of cause and effect beginning with Allah. There is only Allah. There is only 'the cause'.
    It is not Allah > A > B > C > D
    It is Allah > A;   Allah > B;   Allah > C;   Allah > D


    Not quite. Allah can cause A to lead to B but that is because he wants A to lead to B. There is nothing inherent within the body of A (as it exists in a temporal state) to lead to the body of B (existing in another temporal state). He basically presaged Hume's idea of temporal priority being an attribute of psychological causality.
    He basically denies cause and effect in the very sense that we understand it today. The very sense in which William Lane Tzortzis fans require it to be used.


    Right, but WLT fans probably don't understand wavefunction collapse, do they?
    He denied the very fundamentals of nature, dissolving any possibility to learn about it, and this is why he can also be charged with contributing to the decline of science in the Islamic world.


    At the time, yes. But his view is more compatible with QM than you may like to think. In fact it is the (scientific) mu'tazilite doctrne that has utterly been discredited today.
    Neither did he see an inherent problem with infinite regress.

    Well, it is possible that time had no beginning because the first half-open interval of the big bang keeps getting smaller and smaller, if this is what you're referring to. I'll concede this is a minority position championed by the likes of Quentin Smith etc...

    But if you're referring to causality, surely this is a tautology?
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #3 - September 24, 2013, 06:18 AM

    Quote
    At the time, yes. But his view is more compatible with QM than you may like to think.

     

    I think one can reach too far in how much an old conclusion corresponds to a new theory. We shouldn't pretend that Ghazali was thinking of QM metaphysics when he came up with his ideas any more than someone in Greece who said time's all relative has deep insight into Einstein's theories. I guess one could say that because it's metaphysics it doesn't really matter, but that seems to be a bit like a religious text, reinterpreting obvious archaic thought processes into our modern understanding.

    So once again I'm left with the classic Irish man's dilemma, do I eat the potato or do I let it ferment so I can drink it later?
    My political philosophy below
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwGat4i8pJI&feature=g-vrec
    Just kidding, here are some true heros
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBTgvK6LQqA
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #4 - September 24, 2013, 07:39 AM

    this is why he can also be charged with contributing to the decline of science in the Islamic world.


     Afro

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Re: Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #5 - September 24, 2013, 09:29 AM



    I think one can reach too far in how much an old conclusion corresponds to a new theory. We shouldn't pretend that Ghazali was thinking of QM metaphysics when he came up with his ideas any more than someone in Greece who said time's all relative has deep insight into Einstein's theories. I guess one could say that because it's metaphysics it doesn't really matter, but that seems to be a bit like a religious text, reinterpreting obvious archaic thought processes into our modern understanding.


    The point is not that he thought of QM metaphysics (because he obviously couldn't have) the point is that he was more logical than the mu'tazilites esp causality and determinism (even with the knowledge they had back then). Far from being illogical, I think he was one of the greatest minds to have existed. Obviously muslims just look at the incoherence of the philosophers and think he was a devout critic without realising that Ghazzali lapsed into agnosticism through philosophical dialectic for 11 years. It was this agnosticism that lead him to experiential sufism, which intrinsically is a heterodox position according to the ulama.

    Afro

    Please stop with the paternalism. You're not the only one on this forum to have exhibited such behaviour. In fact, I'd say that most ex-muslims fall victim to it. Funny that there's no article about it on the front page, is there?
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #6 - September 24, 2013, 09:49 AM

    I didn't intend to come off as restricting (I think that's what paternalism means, restricting the freedom of others?), I actually chuckled when I read that and just gave it a thumbs up. Sort of a "Nice one". There was no other intention behind it.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #7 - September 24, 2013, 10:11 AM

    I didn't intend to come off as restricting (I think that's what paternalism means, restricting the freedom of others?), I actually chuckled when I read that and just gave it a thumbs up. Sort of a "Nice one". There was no other intention behind it.


    Holding up a paternalistic narrative. Muslims are superstitious, irrational people who can never become scientific until they are made rational (whatever that is supposed to mean). But until you can explain to me the mu'tazilite view on cause I'd appreciate it if you don't uphold dawkins/FFI-esque rhetoric. To charge one man with the decline of science in an entire civilisation is nothing but paternalism. Look at these feebleminded easterners, let's give them a helping hand, m'kay?
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #8 - September 24, 2013, 10:19 AM

    I thinks that's a bit unfair of you. The fact I found a comment amusing doesn't mean I look at all muslims as irrational idiots. If it came across that way I'll clarify right now that it's not what I intended and it's not my view. I just thought it was a funny comment. I doubt dr_sloth was seriously saying this one person is personally influencing a billion+ people.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #9 - September 24, 2013, 10:49 AM

    I thinks that's a bit unfair of you. The fact I found a comment amusing doesn't mean I look at all muslims as irrational idiots. If it came across that way I'll clarify right now that it's not what I intended and it's not my view. I just thought it was a funny comment. I doubt dr_sloth was seriously saying this one person is personally influencing a billion+ people.


    The point is not that it is your view )(which I wouldn't care about anyway). The point is that you can criticise such an ideology, but it still works — upholds the narrative at the level of belief, as it were.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #10 - September 24, 2013, 04:55 PM

    I think Tzortzis's insistence that Ghazali came up with the Kalam 'argument' is another case of plagiarising mistakes from William Lane Craig.

    Ghazali did believe that Allah is the 'first cause', but he meant this in a completely different sense to that which is being ascribed to him. He believed that Allah is the direct first cause, of every event.
    Using Ghazali's undertanding of first cause, 'first cause' becomes meaningless, because there are no second causes. There is no long chain of cause and effect beginning with Allah. There is only Allah. There is only 'the cause'.
    It is not Allah > A > B > C > D
    It is Allah > A;   Allah > B;   Allah > C;   Allah > D

    He basically denies cause and effect in the very sense that we understand it today. The very sense in which William Lane Tzortzis fans require it to be used. He denied the very fundamentals of nature, dissolving any possibility to learn about it, and this is why he can also be charged with contributing to the decline of science in the Islamic world.

    Neither did he see an inherent problem with infinite regress.


    If I am not mistaken the Kalaam Cosmological argument which William Lane Craig uses came from the Muslim.

    By the way the KC is a bad argument to use to prove the existence of God.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #11 - September 24, 2013, 05:02 PM

    Why is everyone so interested in this kalam argument? If it is true, how does it establish Islam's truth in any way? All it proves is that there was some sort of cause (if it were true).

    Wow, hallelujah. Hamza's a tricky guy. He uses this argument to get a good reputation so that his "inimitable quraan" argument doesn't sound as stupid.


    Because Theists who use the KC automatically assume it will prove the God of their particular religion is true. This is an error they are making, for if there is proof God exists it does not automatically it is their God. Also the KS is a fallacy is it automatically assumes the universe was created by a God.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #12 - September 24, 2013, 05:04 PM

    I think Tzortzis's insistence that Ghazali came up with the Kalam 'argument' is another case of plagiarising mistakes from William Lane Craig.

    .....................

    neither of the fools read anything from history..  If I remember right  that "The cosmological argument" was first introduced by Aristotle.. It is Shame The geek Tortilla  born to Greek parents doesn't even read Greek history ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #13 - September 24, 2013, 05:19 PM

    Yeezeevee I've been told by Atheists the KC came from the Muslim world.

    Hmmmm maybe they borrowed that argument from Greek philosophy.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #14 - September 24, 2013, 05:28 PM

    Because Theists who use the KC automatically assume it will prove the God of their particular religion is true. This is an error they are making, for if there is proof God exists it does not automatically it is their God.


    Yup.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #15 - September 24, 2013, 06:10 PM

    By the way the KC is a bad argument to use to prove the existence of God.


    And what would be a good argument?
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #16 - September 24, 2013, 06:42 PM

    Yeezeevee I've been told by Atheists the KC came from the Muslim world.

    ...................

     Who? ..Atheists.. Rascals send them  to high school  C1981 ., let them  learn about origins of god.. the"IT"

    History of the Kalam Cosmological Argument

    Cosmological Argument_..stanford.edu

    Ask them to read at least wiki

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #17 - September 24, 2013, 07:00 PM

     If I remember right  that "The cosmological argument" was first introduced by Aristotle.


    yeah but kalam is slightly different to generic cosmological

    kalam has obviously been designed to side step the obvious objection: 'what caused god then?'
    All it does it build it into the argument that god doesnt need a cause. so dont ask ok!
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #18 - September 24, 2013, 09:08 PM

    And what would be a good argument?


    The best argument I've seen so far is from quantum physics. It is believe quantum physics can provide proof the universe was created from an intelligent.

    Other then that the arguments I've heard from presuppositionist for the existence of God fall short. Right now I am listening to a youtube debate between an Atheist and a Christian presuppositionist who states logic and knowledge comes from God. My friend's debating partner's argument falls short.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #19 - September 24, 2013, 09:18 PM

    yeah but kalam is slightly different to generic cosmological

    kalam has obviously been designed to side step the obvious objection: 'what caused god then?'
    .......... god doesnt need a cause. so dont ask ok!...........




    And i will add to those words " Controllers, Abusers, Manipulative people " ., Idiots in power, Rogues in homes  who use their male power to control women folks are the worse, because the escape scrutiny...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #20 - September 24, 2013, 09:32 PM

    The best argument I've seen so far is from quantum physics. It is believe quantum physics can provide proof the universe was created from an intelligent.

    Other then that the arguments I've heard from presuppositionist for the existence of God fall short. Right now I am listening to a youtube debate between an Atheist and a Christian presuppositionist who states logic and knowledge comes from God. My friend's debating partner's argument falls short.


    You know, c1981, we really aren’t that far away geographically speaking. When you finally become an atheist, let me know I’ll buy you a beer. Grin


    Seriously though, what was compelling to you about a “quantum physics” argument? I’m intrigued? Is it as compelling to a wide range of actual physicists?
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #21 - September 24, 2013, 10:21 PM

    Don't hold your breath my friend.

    What is compelling to me about quantum physics is the observer effect. Basically a metaphysical approach is used in an attempt to use quantum physics as proof an intelligent mind is behind the creation of the universe.

    For example the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum physics states as the system unfolds, the physical state is defined by it's quantum wavefunction. The wavefunction describes the probabilities of all possible configurations of the system. At that point the wavefunction collapses into a single state. This is one intepretation of how quantum physics is used to prove God is behind the creation of the universe.

    I don't know if it is compelling to a wide range of actual physicists.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #22 - September 24, 2013, 11:14 PM

    ..................... quantum physics is the observer effect................

    holy allah doll ., that is very profound statement C1981., It is as good as this dude's Quote on Quantum cat..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL2DuZPKA3w

    "If you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand it"


    Quote
    Basically a metaphysical approach is used in an attempt to use quantum physics as proof an intelligent mind is behind the creation of the universe.

    whatever metaphysics  you or any one wants add .,  intelligent mind is behind the creation of the universe MEANS there is a guy/girl/it with a brain.,  If it is a brainless inteligent mind  means  it is  NOT a thingy but some principles that we yet understand.., such as origin of universe  or first self reproducing biological species/ even a biological reaction .....  etc..etc..
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #23 - September 24, 2013, 11:34 PM

    Why is everyone so interested in this kalam argument? If it is true, how does it establish Islam's truth in any way? All it proves is that there was some sort of cause (if it were true).

    The argument can be shortened to:

    The universe might have a cause
    Therefore, the universe might have a cause

    That's as far as the argument gets you.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #24 - September 25, 2013, 12:26 AM

    Ishina just summed up KC in a short message. Then again there isn't much to KC.
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #25 - September 25, 2013, 12:26 AM

    The best argument I've seen so far is from quantum physics. It is believe quantum physics can provide proof the universe was created from an intelligent.


    But you've already said you don't accept something proven true as true, so wouldn't this be irrelevant?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #26 - September 25, 2013, 12:27 AM

    holy allah doll ., that is very profound statement C1981., It is as good as this dude's Quote on Quantum cat..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kL2DuZPKA3w

    "If you think you understand quantum mechanics you don't understand it"

    whatever metaphysics  you or any one wants add .,  intelligent mind is behind the creation of the universe MEANS there is a guy/girl/it with a brain.,  If it is a brainless inteligent mind  means  it is  NOT a thingy but some principles that we yet understand.., such as origin of universe  or first self reproducing biological species/ even a biological reaction .....  etc..etc..
     


    Ok Yeezevee
  • Al Ghazali and Kalam
     Reply #27 - September 25, 2013, 12:30 AM

    But you've already said you don't accept something proven true as true, so wouldn't this be irrelevant?


    Maybe. I am  not always consistent, but am working on it.
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