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 Topic: Punishment in Islam

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  • Punishment in Islam
     OP - January 16, 2014, 11:35 PM

    Punishment in Islam


    In today’s modern societies, most people disagree with many of the cruel types of punishment that are still commonly used in non-secular Islam-dominated countries. They still cut off a thieves' hand. They still stone a women to death for having sex out of marriage. They still have the death penalty for leaving Islam and for criticizing Islam. So why are they so far behind? In other words, why are we way ahead of them, speaking specifically about our ideas on the efficacy of punishment?

    One thing to consider is that the punishments that Islam does now are things that even the most modern societies had in their distant history too. So why have we evolved our knowledge on punishment while they haven’t? I mean, Islam’s conception of ethical punishment today is exactly what it was 1,400 years ago when the Quran was written, while modern societies have made improvements to their conception of ethical punishment. So, why have Islamic societies not improved their understanding of punishment like we have? I think their are two factors at work here.

    The first factor is related to the fact that in the Quran, it is written that Allah will protect the Quran from man-made changes. This is presented as a good thing, so that people don’t corrupt the religion. But actually it’s a very bad thing because with no changes means no improvements to the moral knowledge. The outcome of that is especially bad because most Muslims believe that the Quran is protected by Allah from man-made changes, since that's what is declared in the Quran. So even when occasionally a Muslim voices his opinion that the Islamic law should be updated, other Muslims get offended that Allah’s laws are being questioned, and they make threats of violence in order to scare the dissenters into conformity. So little progress is made.

    The second factor at work is related to the attitudes of individuals in Islam-dominated countries today, and how that contrasts with that of modern societies.


    Open societies vs closed societies

    As David Deutsch explains in _The Beginning of Infinity_, there are open societies and closed societies. Closed societies are those that don’t change much. In such a society, throughout an individuals entire life, he sees little to no changes to traditions in his society. When people come up with new ideas, they get shot down by all the people that want to preserve what they know. They shun dissenters. They even violently retaliate against dissenters. In contrast, for open societies, change is common. An individual sees a seemingly uncountable number of changes to traditions in his society during his lifetime. So they are accustomed to change. They welcome it. They strive for it.

    So what makes a society closed vs open? It’s the tradition of criticism. In societies where criticism is cherished as the great thing that it actually is, then dissent is welcomed instead of shunned. With this tradition of criticism, changes to traditions are seen as potentially good rather than automatically bad. People who have a good attitude towards criticism see change as opportunities for improvement. In an open society, critically questioning authority figures like government or police is ok, since it’s seen as an attempt to correct flaws in the traditions being criticized.

    So in our modern society, the reason that we have outlawed so many types of cruel punishment is that we have improved our knowledge about punishment. For each type of punishment that we outlawed, we judged the punishment to be ineffective. We judged that the outlawed punishment is too cruel for the crime. And in Islam-dominated countries today, they are not updating their knowledge about punishment. They still use the same methods they had 1,400 years ago. They aren’t critically questioning their methods. They aren’t trying to figure out where their flaws are, so they aren’t trying to create fixes for those flaws. They think that their moral knowledge comes from Allah. They think their moral knowledge is perfect. They think their ideas on punishment are infallible.

    Now I don’t mean to say that all Islam-dominated countries are like this. Some of these countries have secular governments, and they have outlawed many of the cruel punishments from Islam. I’m referring to the countries with Islamic governments, since they strive to adhere to Islamic law, like Saudi Arabia and Yemen.

    To be clear, our modern societies still have a lot of improvements to make in our knowledge about punishment. But because we have a tradition of criticism, and as long as we don’t lose it, we will continue to make progress. We will continue to improve our knowledge, building on our previous knowledge in a step by step way. As long as we keep our tradition of criticism, we will find the flaws and fix them.

    One major flaw that all modern societies still have today is in their understanding of the goal of punishment and the efficacy of punishment to that goal. The goal of punishment is for the punisher to prevent the punishee from committing a behavior that the punisher disapproves of. So the question is: Does punishment work at causing it’s desired result?


    Human behavior and what the tradition of punishment says about it

    To answer that question, we need to know how human behavior works, and what the tradition of punishment says about that. People behave according to what they know. So their behavior is related to their knowledge of how to behave. A kid who hits his sister when she doesn’t obey his commands, is behaving in accordance with what he knows about how to behave when somebody doesn’t obey his commands. He learned that hitting people is a useful way to get what he wants. Now, should the parent punish him to teach him a lesson that hitting is wrong as a means of preventing him from hitting his sister again? To answer this question, consider a situation where the parent believes that spanking is ok. So the parent hits his kid while saying “Hitting people is wrong.” Do you see the contradiction? What will the kid learn? How will the kid learn that hitting people when they disobey him is wrong when his parent his hitting him when he disobeys his parent? I mean, the kid learned this behavior from his parent, and the parent is continuing to behave in the manner that he’s saying the kid shouldn’t behave. It’s a double standard. It’s hypocrisy.

    At this point many people might think that I’m advocating that we should close all our prisons and let out all the prisoners, but they would be mistaken. Prison serves two goals, one I disagree with, and the other I agree with. The one I disagree with is punishment. Punishing criminals does not help them learn that their behavior is wrong, nor how to do better. But the second goal I agree with, which is for criminals to be separated from society as a means of protecting people from repeat criminal activity by the criminals.


    Some punishments ok?

    Now a lot of people think that other types of punishment are fine, like giving a child a timeout or taking things he likes away from him, but this is a mistake. If the child is doing bad behavior, it’s because he doesn’t know it’s bad. I mean, it’s possible he knows that his parents think it’s bad, or that his religion considers it bad, but the point is that part of him wants to do it, and it’s that part of him that he’s choosing to act on. So in the case of a boy who hits his sister when she doesn’t obey his command, part of him knows that his parents think it’s bad to hit his sister, but part of him wants to hit her, and he’s choosing to act on the part of him that wants to hit her. Which raises the question: Why is he choosing to act on that part of him instead of the other part of him?

    The boy chooses to hit because that’s what he understands about how to get what he wants. Why does he think this way? Because he learned it, from his parents. His parents try to make him feel pain or otherwise experience mental suffering as a means of getting him to do what they want him to do. So he learned to do exactly that, to make somebody feel mental pain as a means of getting them to do what he wants them to do. And he chooses hitting as his way of delivering mental pain, while his parents choose taking away privileges as their way of delivering mental pain.

    So the boy learned to hurt people to get what he wants by copying his parents. And if the parents want him to learn that that is wrong, then they should start by following their own advice. Actions speak louder than words.

    One objection I hear a lot from parents is that their kid doesn’t behave without taking away privileges. But this is the same argument that the boy gives for why he hit his sister, which is that she wouldn’t give back his toy, so he hit her. This argument is wrong, no matter who is using it. This argument is wrong on the grounds that the conclusion does not follow from the premises. They are saying that the only possible way for the person to behave in a certain manner is to cause mental pain on him in order for him to have encouragement to stop the behavior, which is not true. Another way is to help him learn the benefits of not doing the behavior, and the benefits of a better way to behave. There is no law of nature preventing him from learning the benefits of better behavior.


    Instead of punishment?

    Now even if a parent has learned that punishment doesn’t work, it still takes knowing what to do instead in order to put all of this into practice. The replacement behavior for punishment is discussions, where the parent and child discuss the merits and/or demerits of the behavior, and what other possible behaviors were possible, and the merits and/or demerits of those.[1]

    What’s needed is better explanations. Parents should help their children get what they want, and to help them learn to figure out what things are wrong to want. They should help their children learn how to resolve disagreements. This requires a lot of skill in explaining things in simple enough terms for their children to understand. But more importantly, it requires a change of attitude, one that is consistent with the idea that punishment is wrong. The issue is that a person who is new to this philosophy still has a lot of triggers and habits in his mind that are consistent with his old philosophy, necessarily contradicting his new philosophy. It’s these triggers and habits that rear their ugly heads that makes it tougher to change. It requires a major effort.

    Now what’s especially difficult is the situation where a boy watches his father beat his mother, which is especially common in families in Islamic cultures because the Quran declares that husbands should beat their wives when they disobey.[2] It’s especially difficult because in this sort of situation the boy is learning that beating people to get what you want is ok, and as an adult, if the boy decides to live his life by Islamic law, then he might use the Quran to justify beating his future wife. So how are these guys going to learn that their ways are wrong and better ways of resolving disagreements?

    Well for one thing, it’s impossible to force him to learn that he’s wrong about how to deal with disagreements. Learning just doesn’t work that way. It must be voluntary. So if the person isn't willing to learn, then it’s not going to happen. But even if that hurdle was overcome, there are still many big obstacles standing in the way. People have entrenched ideas. And it’s one’s ideas that cause his attitude. His entrenched ideas make it hard to change because it’s those ideas that produce his emotions.

    If your attitude towards disagreement is that it’s painful, then you’ll have negative emotions when disagreements happen. If your attitude towards dealing with problems is that it’s painful, then you’ll have negative emotions when you think about your problems. The key is to have an attitude that sees discussing disagreements as a good thing, and dealing with problems as a good thing.

    Now a lot of people fail repeatedly in their attempts at resolving disagreements, and because of the frequent failure, they learned to fear disagreements. So when a disagreement happens, they get anxiety or they get angry because they think that they aren’t going to get what they want. But these are misplaced emotions. They are counter-productive. They make it harder to come to agreement. They make it harder to think about your problems. So these emotions cause more failure. The nice thing is that it’s possible for a person to change his emotions. There is no law of nature preventing it. What’s needed is a serious, sustained effort.[3]



    [1] Parenting, by me [link: http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2013/10/how-should-parents-raise-their-children.html]

    [2] [Wife-beating essay], by X [link:

    [3] For more on how to change your emotions, consider reading these essays:
    - Emotions, by Elliot Temple [link: http://fallibleideas.com/emotions]
    - Psycho-epistemology, by Elliot Temple [link: http://curi.us/1257-xvi]
    - Psycho-epistemology, by me [link: http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2012/09/psychology.html]
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #1 - January 17, 2014, 12:49 AM

    I have some questions.

    1) Are you referring to the "Seal" on prophethood, that no further Shariah will be brought, when you state that the Quran will be protected from tampering? If not, what are you referring to?

    2) Do you have children? Why would you insist on talking it out, over natural consequences, which you seem to think causes mental anguish and is synonymous with punishment? I mean, I see this in my head:
    Parent: Dear son, you have taken my car without permission and crashed it. This is wrong. Do you understand how this is wrong?
    Son: Yes, I understand. I feel awful, what a mistake, and boy, have I learned my lesson! Can I have the keys to the van?
    Parent: Sure, here are the keys, make sure you add some fuel.

    3) So you are making the case that madrassa style education creates Muslim robots, whereas education based on critical thinking can transform a closed society to an open society? This is a given, I think.

    I have been arguing against Shariah lately, with Progressives who do not understand that Islam and Shariah are twinned, forever. So I am interested in this topic.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #2 - January 21, 2014, 06:51 PM

    Quote from: three
    1) Are you referring to the "Seal" on prophethood, that no further Shariah will be brought, when you state that the Quran will be protected from tampering? If not, what are you referring to?

    I’m referring to Quran 15:9
    إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ

    "Surely, We have sent down the reminder, and We will most surely be its guardian". (Qur’an, 15:9)

    Muslims scholars interpret this to mean that Allah is protecting the Quran from manmade changes.

    Quote from: three
    2) Do you have children?

    I do have children but I don't see the relevance.

    Quote from: three
    Why would you insist on talking it out, over natural consequences, which you seem to think causes mental anguish and is synonymous with punishment?

    I'm not clear on what you're saying here.

    Are you saying that I think that talking causes mental anguish? I don't think that. If you think I did, please quote me and explain why you think the quote means what you think it means.

    Quote from: three
    I mean, I see this in my head:
    Parent: Dear son, you have taken my car without permission and crashed it. This is wrong. Do you understand how this is wrong?
    Son: Yes, I understand. I feel awful, what a mistake, and boy, have I learned my lesson! Can I have the keys to the van?
    Parent: Sure, here are the keys, make sure you add some fuel.

    Here the parent is mistaken to risk his 2nd car from being crashed before getting an explanation from his kid that he knows how not do it again.

    The parent mistakenly didn’t ask for clarification about what “lesson” the child learned.

    The parent mistakenly didn’t question his kid’s claim that he “feels awful”. So what if he feels awful? His feelings aren’t relevant to the issue. His feelings might be relevant to other stuff, like maybe he needs help dealing with his feelings, but that’s a different issue.

    The parent mistakenly didn’t question his kid’s negligence in asking for the 2nd car while not have explained what he understands about his mistake, nor what he understands of a better way to behave so that the mistake doesn’t occur again.

    The parent mistakenly didn’t question his kid’s negligence in taking the 1st car without permission.

    Quote from: three
    3) So you are making the case that madrassa style education creates Muslim robots, whereas education based on critical thinking can transform a closed society to an open society? This is a given, I think.

    What do you mean by “education”? What sort of education do you think is based on critical thinking in modern societies?
     
    Quote from: three
    I have been arguing against Shariah lately, with Progressives who do not understand that Islam and Shariah are twinned, forever. So I am interested in this topic.

    I’m glad to discuss it with you.
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #3 - January 21, 2014, 06:59 PM

    Hello  Rami good to see you back., Here is a relevant video in this thread By  Maajid Nawaz on TED-talks.  I am not sure you have time to watch the tube  but if you have,  what is your opinion on his talk which is on "the recent Violent out bursts in Islamic societies? "

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #4 - January 22, 2014, 02:21 AM

    In regards to education, I would assume that requiring memorization, or rote learning, would not be a great basis to form critical thinking skills.
    However, having the instructor standing in front of the class and urging students to think and come up with different answers might do encourage critical thought. I can give you all the proper terms, but I think we understand the difference between recitation and thinking a problem through. It's an ocean of difference. Let's not run down the list of proper names for the methods covering each option. Unless you insist.
    Is that your point? That a society can be altered through education, by encouraging critical thought?

    In regards to talking and talking over a problem with a child, you can lose some real teachable moments if you pass on consequences.
    Kid steals and crashes car. Consequently, kid does not get to use any car for long time. This is not a punishment. This is a natural and expected consequence for the child. Mental anguish or no.
    What is not natural is quizzing the child until that child satisfies the parent with all the "right answers" and then gets to use another vehicle. That will teach nothing at all. You call this punishment and anguish, to deny the child the car. I call it consequences. We can debate this parenting style, but for my kids, talking does not teach them any consequence other than having to endure face time and lectures with their mother. I have tried talking, believe me.
    They don't eat their dinner, they do not get dessert. Not a punishment, a consequence for their choice. Don't want to wear your hat in subzero temperatures? You do not get to go outside. Natural consequence, not a meeting or a lecture.
    That is what I mean. I think you left this option out. You mention only punishment or talking. Not natural consequences.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #5 - January 23, 2014, 02:21 PM

    Quote from: three
    In regards to education, I would assume that requiring memorization, or rote learning, would not be a great basis to form critical thinking skills.

    I’d take that further by saying that rote learning is EXTREMELY harmful to the process of developing critical thinking skills. It’s the opposite. It’s antithetical.

    Memorizing things means assuming that they are true.

    Critical thinking means knowing that the thing in question might be wrong.

    Quote from: three
    Is that your point? That a society can be altered through education, by encouraging critical thought?

    Well in this essay I didn’t address the point about HOW Islamic societies would improve.

    But yes, the HOW would definitely include a move TOWARDS critical thought, a move AWAY from assuming things are true (without question).

    I wrote another essay called Understanding Terrorism in which I argue that what’s needed for closed societies is the tradition of criticism. I posted it on this forum. Here’s the link: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25526.0

    Quote from: three
    In regards to talking and talking over a problem with a child, you can lose some real teachable moments if you pass on consequences.

    Kid steals and crashes car. Consequently, kid does not get to use any car for long time.

    Consequences that the parent decides without question from the child? That means the parent is ignoring the child’s criticism. That’s antithetical to the idea of helping someone learn to think critically.

    Quote from: three
    This is not a punishment. This is a natural and expected consequence for the child. Mental anguish or no.

    If I was in that situation, and if the kid refused to talk to me about his mistake with the first car, then I wouldn’t risk putting my second car in his hands. And this is not a punishment because my intention is NOT to hurt him, and instead my intention is to NOT hurt myself (referring to losing money from a potential crash of my second car).

    In contrast, what you advocated is that the kid not get the second car, as a means for him to be hurt, and then you are expecting him to decide to do differently next time as a means to avoid the pain (of the “natural consequence”) again. That IS punishment because you WANT him to hurt so that he obeys your commands.

    Quote from: three
    What is not natural is quizzing the child until that child satisfies the parent with all the "right answers" and then gets to use another vehicle.

    I don’t understand why you think what you’re advocating is natural. The laws of nature didn’t cause the consequence. YOU did. YOU chose. The laws of nature didn’t choose. So it’s not a natural consequence delivered by nature. It’s an artificial consequence delivered by YOU, and without so much as an explanation for the kid to learn anything about the morality of the situation. So you are advocating having him learn by rote memory, instead of critical thinking. You are expecting him to memorize the specific actions that you disapprove of, and to memorize the specific “natural consequences” that you’re going to apply on him without question, and you expect him to recall these memorized things the next time he thinks of driving your car without permission.

    Quote from: three
    That will teach nothing at all. You call this punishment and anguish, to deny the child the car.

    No I didn’t. I said that denying the car WITHOUT discussing the problem, is punishment.

    So if the child refuses to resolve the disagreement (refuses to discuss it), then the parent has no reason to capitulate to the kid’s demands (when he asks to drive the second car without having resolved the disagreement about having taken the first car without permission). This is not a punishment. This is a situation where the owner (parent) of the property (second car) decided to not let someone (his kid) use his property. This is not because the parent refuses to do it. It’s because the kid refuses to discuss the disagreement with his parent. The kid is the one choosing to not discuss.

    But what you are advocating is where the parent refuses to resolve the disagreement. The parent is choosing to not share his property with his kid without even discussing it. That doesn’t promote critical thinking. It prevents it.

    Quote from: three
    I call it consequences. We can debate this parenting style, but for my kids, talking does not teach them any consequence other than having to endure face time and lectures with their mother. I have tried talking, believe me.

    Why do you assume that since you tried talking, that means that ALL possible things that could be said won’t work? That’s a false assumption.

    There are better ways of talking. For example, talking to someone and expecting that someone to “learn” what you’re saying by rote memory, doesn’t work. And talking to someone and expecting him to learn by critical thinking, does work.

    Now to be clear, if a parent and child are doing actual critical thinking, that means that the parent can’t assume that he’s right. He must treat all his ideas as fallible (possibly wrong). So if the kid provides the parent with a criticism of the parent’s idea, the parent should not ignore the kids criticism. Either the parent should criticize the kid’s criticism, or the parent should reject his idea since it’s now criticized.

    You are advocating that parents speak to their kids in a rote learning way, instead of a critical thinking way. It’s problematic in two ways. (1) The parent could be wrong about one or more of his ideas, so without critical thinking they won’t be able to find out which of the parent’s ideas are wrong. (2) The kid whose parents talk to them in a rote learning way, are not learning critical thinking — they are learning to be dependent on other people’s thinking.

    Quote from: three
    They don't eat their dinner, they do not get dessert.

    Forcing people to eat a certain way, regardless of their preferences, causes people to learn food irrationalities. Most people who overeat do so because during their childhood their parents forced them to eat in ways they didn’t want to eat. For example, finishing one’s whole plate, a tradition common to Muslim families, causes someone to eat more than he needed to stop his hunger. It makes his stomach stretch larger. It leads to him eating more in order to feel the full feeling (which is something that is unnecessary). This is just one example but there are hundreds of food irrationalities that people learn from their parents.

    Quote from: three
    Not a punishment, a consequence for their choice.

    It is a punishment, by definition.

    Why are you claiming that it’s their choice? You are the one CHOOSING to deliver the punishment. You are lying here.

    Quote from: three
    Don't want to wear your hat in subzero temperatures? You do not get to go outside. Natural consequence, not a meeting or a lecture.

    That’s not a natural consequence. A natural consequence would be if they got really cold from being outside without a hat in subzero temperature. You are twisting meanings here as a means of justifying your actions.

    Quote from: three
    That is what I mean. I think you left this option out. You mention only punishment or talking. Not natural consequences.

    They are not natural if YOUR CHOICES are what’s causing them to happen. They are artificial.

    Further, you claim that you think your kids should learn by “natural consequences”, yet you don’t even let them experience the natural consequences (like when you don’t let them outside without a hat in subzero temp).
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #6 - January 23, 2014, 03:18 PM

    Hello  Rami good to see you back., Here is a relevant video in this thread By  Maajid Nawaz on TED-talks.  I am not sure you have time to watch the tube  but if you have,  what is your opinion on his talk which is on "the recent Violent out bursts in Islamic societies? "


    I MAKE time for learning. Thanks for posting the video.

    I agree with the speaker about the idea that the far right fascists are committing a mistake analogous (in some ways) to the extremist Muslims.

    Fascists are pro-censorship — they want to ban the Quran. Extremist Muslims are also pro-censorship — they want to ban criticism of Islam. Both of them are wrong for the same reason — censorship is wrong in and of itself.

    Censorship is antithetical to the tradition of criticism. The idea that censorship is necessary implies that criticism can be bad, which is a mistake. Consider a simple example of a parenting situation where a parent decided to censor anything about sex with his kid. Let’s say he home schools his kids and doesn’t let them watch tv. So his kids grow up to age 18 and then go to college. All of a sudden these kids are seeing sex all over, on tv, their friends talk about it, they start to get sexual desires for people around them, etc. But because their parents avoiding talking about sex at all, they don’t know the dangers. They don’t know anything about STDs, or how to prevent catching them. They don’t know how to prevent a pregnancy. They don’t know about the various ways that guys try to manipulate girls to get in their pants. They don’t know so many things, things that they need to know in order to protect themselves. So by censoring information from their kids, they harmed their kids.

    Not censoring isn’t bad. There is no harm in it. If a person learns about an idea from tv or the internet, he won’t just absorb the idea as the truth without question. That’s not how the mind works. When we learn ideas we are being critical (to some degree, and parents that don’t help their kids learning critical thinking are harming their kids by not helping them to learn to figure out right from wrong).

    Analogously, just because the Quran is available to anyone, that doesn’t mean that people are going to become Muslims. And just because criticism of Islam is available to anyone, that doesn’t mean that Muslims are going to agree with the criticism and reject their religion.

    More importantly, if an idea is true, it will speak for itself. People will agree with it because it’s true. Its possible for people to learn that it’s true. And if an idea is false, it’s possible for people to learn that it’s false. We don’t need other people to CHOOSE what we ideas are presented to us. We can choose for ourselves.

    One last thing I’d like to mention is that by censoring and banning things, like halal meat, you are liable to piss off people who want those things. This is antithetical to liberalism.

    Liberalism is the philosophical doctrine that says that individuals are equal under the law. It says that individuals have rights that should be protected from other individuals and government. One such right is freedom of speech. So banning criticism of Islam and banning the Quran contradicts the freedom of speech.

    More generally, liberalism says that individuals should be able to do whatever they want, short of infringing on the rights of others. So that means people should be able to do whatever they want short of initiating force on another person. That means that businesses should be able to sell whatever they want, halal meat included.. marijuana and other drugs included too.

    My main point is that banning people from doing things (excluding initiation of violence) is unnecessary and counter-productive. It fails to solve the problem it’s intended to solve, and worse, it actually makes the problem worse. So it’s part of the problem, instead of part of the solution.

    By the way, I talk about liberalism and censorship/banning in my essay on What America should do in Syria. I’ll posted it just now. Here’s the link: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=25644.new#new


    On the speakers point about political correctness, I agree with him. Political correctness is antithetical to the tradition of criticism. To be PC, one must hide the truth (with euphemisms). But the truth is the most important thing. If somebody is offended by the truth, the correct response isn’t to hide the truth from him. The correct response is for him to change his feelings about the truth.


    On his point about needing a social movement of the young wanted democracy, I agree. I argue for that in the essay I linked about America and Syria. But I didn’t think about the idea of a leader needing to be the head of the social movement. I’m not sure that’s necessary. I think if there are many individuals who are advocating democracy and liberalism (in the form of books and talks), these individuals can all be the “leaders” of the social movement.
  • Punishment in Islam
     Reply #7 - January 24, 2014, 02:17 AM

    Oh yes, you are right. There is a difference between consequences and natural consequences. I suppose natural consequences would be those consequences of nature, not animals or people. Like when a dog comes to you for petting, and you kick it, so it won't come near you again. That is not a natural consequence, I guess, since the dog decided not to come over to you. Or when a mommy wolf picks up the stray pup and brings it back to the den over and over. Not natural, as it the wolf's decision to retrieve the pup. If she then nudges it over to discourage it when it starts to wander off the next time, again not natural, as there was maternal intervention.

    My children have lots of rules, for their own good. They know them, as they are told these rules as they are made, and the consequences for breaking them or disregarding them.

    If I allowed these children to eat dessert and not their other foods, then they would  simply eat dessert only, to the exclusion of the foods that are beneficial to their nutrition. This is factual, as just this evening, my son refused to eat his food for a good half hour, saying he would not have room for dessert. When they eat only foods that are not good for them, they get sick tummies and they also slip back into malnutrition. If they choose not to eat their dinner (I do not force them, neither to eat, nor to finish), then I do not give them their dessert. They have a choice.

    In regards to stealing or using other people's possessions, I do not think input from my child is necessary. It is not theirs. They can ask for it, but they cannot expect to receive someone else's car or toy or book. I do not want them to think they have any rights at all over my things or another person's things. So I will not be asking for their input on borrowing things, as that is up to the owner and not the decision of my child. Any owner may deny that thing to my child, as that item is not belonging to my child. This is not a punishment. This is boundaries. 

    Discussing things will often backfire. If my child calls me "lizard lips" and I make such a big deal over it that I have an actual sit down and question and answer session, then I am guaranteed to be called that every time my child wants my attention on them. If I ignore the insult, and pretend not to hear them, they give up and go back to using proper words to get my attention, which I then grant them for positive and polite wording, and not trash talk.

    If a consequence is not self explanatory enough, I do announce it to the child. "You cannot have the paint because you continue to eat it", I will tell them.

    My children are not stupid, at all. To sit them down and go over every wrong with an explanation is time consuming, puts too much attention on negative behaviour, and belittles them, by assuming they cannot figure out for themselves what is wrong and what is right. Better to make a fuss over what they do right, sit them down and praise them specifically for it, and explain how it was a good choice that they made.

    Now, if my child steals and crashes the car, he knows he has to make amends and will not be allowed to drive without my presence for quite some time. I assume this is how it will be when they come of age, because when my child breaks something now, he has to pay for it. When they steal something, they are made to return it, with no protest from themselves being considered, though I will let them voice it once. When any of them scribble on the wall, they have to clean it up. They know why, and I will listen to all their excuses and blaming and procrastination, and then I will tell them "okay, go clean up your mess". This, I argue, does not hurt them, rather teaches them responsibility.
    If they expect to be given things, despite irresponsible behaviour towards other's belongings, what will result? If they expect a conversation, where they say all the right things, to give them whatever they want, what will result? How will they understand boundaries and avoid the ill effects of continuous immediate gratification?
    If you have a child of driving age who does not understand the moral issues with stealing, then you have started much too late.

    I am their mother. If I don't teach them cause and effect, or consequences, how are they supposed to understand how anything works, how can I expect them to go to school?

    Just this very minute, my oldest told another child he would bite that child's nose off. So he has been separated from the other children until he regains enough control to get along with them again without terrorizing them. He knows threats are wrong, and he knows he has alternatives, and that society and myself expect him to make better choices with his words and actions. I will not allow him to threaten smaller children with harm. He will tell me when he is ready to be nice again, and I will give him another chance to play with them. But without this consequence, my home is not safe for children. It does not matter what excuse or criticism he gives me, I will not allow violence nor threats of violence, and there is no negotiation. I hope that when he is too angry to control himself, he will learn to separate himself without my assistance, and thus gain self regulation. 

    I am sorry you feel so offended by my wording that you have accused me of lying or twisting. Such was not my intention. I suppose I should have been more precise in my language or terminology, and looked up the exact definitions, rather than assuming cause and effect and natural consequences were the same thing.
    I was bewildered by the assumption that talking would create acceptable behaviour. More talk makes more problems in my house. More action makes less problems. Keeping our talk on positive things helps more than focusing on our mistakes.

    That is my experience, anyhow. Thanks for reading. Every child is different and responds to different parenting techniques, and the variations among my own children are great enough that they have different motivations and thus each require some tailoring in my approach, though we do have consistent rules. What works for yours, works, and I am glad you have such calm children with logical tendencies who are responsive to discussion. 

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
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