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 Topic: Palestine vs Israel in London

 (Read 15999 times)
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  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #60 - May 10, 2014, 02:38 AM

    - Which treat the Palestinians as either second class citizens or non-citizens. 4.5 million Palestinians living in the Gaza and West Bank, and 4.5 million Palestinians living outside in surrounding countries as the result of the expulsion of Palestinians.
    - Not defending the Arab countries here. They treat the Palestinians like shit too. But if Israel hadn't expelled the Palestinians perhaps the internal strife in neighbouring countries (like the Libanon civil war(s), Black September in Jordan and others) wouldn't have happened - or at least to a lesser degree. And the world's Jihadists would have one lesser grievance to use to elevate their distorted moral high ground.

    In 1948 Palestine was divided between Arabs (Muslims) and Jews. Jews accepted it and the Arabs rejected it. It’s true that the many Arabs were expelled but it’s also true that many Arabs left on their own because they did not want to live under the Jews. But let us not forget the fact that after 1948, all Jews (about 900,000) was expelled from Arab countries, their properties confiscated – this one fact is totally ignored.

    Today there are about 1.2 million Arabs living in Israel as equal citizens at least legally – I acknowledge that they are discriminated against. But let us not forget that Jews have no rights in Arab countries. Arabs have complete religious freedom in Israel, while Jews have absolutely no freedom of religion in any Arab and Muslim country.

    There was a recent poll of Arabs in Israel – overwhelming majority of Arabs said that they prefer to live in Israel rather than in any Arab country. Most of them acknowledge that in spite of second class status, they have more rights in Israel than they would have in any Arab country. After seeing what is happening in many Arab countries, they feel much safer in Israel.

    When East Jerusalem was part of Jordan, Jews were not permitted to pray at the Western Wall (only holy site for the Jews). But under Israeli rule, Muslims have complete freedom of religion in East Jerusalem. I don’t blame Israel for not giving up East Jerusalem.

    It is the Arabs who started the war of 1967 and they lost. If Arabs had won the war there would have been wholesale slaughter of the Jews.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #61 - May 10, 2014, 06:16 AM

    but you are NOT answering my question  Al-Alethia   Huh?


    What question, dear yezevee Huh? 

    well  Israel may have opened its doors to  injured in Syrian dirty politics.,    Israel may have  given  food while Assad starved his own people.  but I am not sure Israel helping The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant

     

    Sunnis asking the Zionist entity for help against Shi'as?! That's realpolitik gone mad and helping out sick and injured civilians =/= support for the rebels. I think the Israelis might be trying to foster good will amongst the Syrian public to ensure their safety if/when Assad falls. ISIS is scary as fuck, yeez. FSM help Syria if those guys take over. 
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #62 - May 10, 2014, 09:07 AM

    What question, dear yezevee Huh? 

    councilofexmuslims.#msg750490

    ........ISIS is scary as fuck, yeez. FSM help Syria if those guys take over. ......

    Well Amrika trained and created ISIS during Saddam regime.. Sure there must be Zionist support to ISIS from American Zionist who control America..



    by  supporting ISIS heroes with bit of money  they  can kill two birds., ISIS and Syria ...

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #63 - May 10, 2014, 12:04 PM


    yeez, I asked you first, and you responded with a question finmad
    My answer is somewhere between the pre-67 borders and now. I think Israel should hold onto the Golan Heights as a buffer zone, come to an agreement with the Palestinians over how the West Bank should be divided, and Jerusalem IMO can't realistically be divided so it either remains under Israeli control or becomes it's own independent entity as was originally planned (a bit like the Vatican) with the residents being given a choice over Palestinian or Israeli citizenship. Perhaps ruled by some kind of committee where Arabs and Jews are equally represented and I believe the holy sites should continue to be administered by their respective groups. Of course, this is highly unlikely to happen and I don't really think there's a straightforward way of solving this mess.

    councilofexmuslims.#msg750490
    Well Amrika trained and created ISIS during Saddam regime.. Sure there must be Zionist support to ISIS from American Zionist who control America..  buy  supporting ISIS heroes with bit of money  they  can kill two birds., ISIS and Syria ...

    Huh Huh? ISIS is Al-Qaeda in Iraq, they were recently disowned by Al-Qaeda, and emerged during the Iraq War, during which they fought coalition forces and Shi'as. They never had anything to do with the U.S. or the Zionists
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #64 - May 10, 2014, 12:05 PM

    Israel fires back at U.S. envoy over peace talks' failure says reuters.com

    Quote
    Israel fired back on Friday at a senior U.S. official, who blamed Jewish settlement construction in part for the breakdown of peacemaking with the Palestinians, saying he himself had done nothing to help the negotiations.

    The blunt riposte signaled continued, deep tensions between Israel and Washington over the U.S.-led talks, which collapsed last month amid bitter recriminations.

    In his first public comments on the negotiations, U.S. envoy Martin Indyk said on Thursday that neither side had had the stomach to make the necessary compromises, and singled out settlement building on occupied territory as a particular obstacle.
    Quote
    But a senior Israeli official familiar with the talks accused Indyk of hypocrisy, saying he had known construction in the West Bank and East Jerusalem would continue during the discussions.

    "Indyk comes and blames others without speaking about his own responsibility for the current impasse," the official, who spoke on condition of anonymity, told Reuters.

    "(It is) difficult to point to any significant contribution that he (Indyk) had made to the process," he added.

    While faulting Israel's expansion of settlements, Indyk also criticized the Palestinians for unilaterally signing 15 conventions meant to advance their demand for independence.

    Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu suspended the talks on April 24 after Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas forged an unexpected unity pact with rival Islamist group Hamas.

    Detailing Israeli actions that he deemed counterproductive, Indyk cited plans unveiled during the talks for some 8,000 Jewish homes on land the Palestinians want for their future state.

    This, Indyk suggested, sapped diplomacy by helping convince Abbas that Netanyahu was not a serious negotiating partner.

    Israel additionally announced tenders for the building of 4,800 homes on occupied territory, although Indyk said the Palestinians had indicated in the past that this land would be absorbed into Israel in any peace deal.

    The Israeli official said Indyk had been informed of the construction plans, down to the number of homes.

    "Furthermore, he knew that it was on this basis that Israel agreed to enter the talks," the Israeli official said. "So it's not clear why now that should be criticized."

    U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry launched the negotiations on July 29 with the stated principal that Israelis and Palestinians might best make progress through direct meetings, facilitated by the Americans.

    Kerry appointed Indyk as his personal envoy to the talks.

    DIRECT DIPLOMACY

    According to the senior Israeli official, Indyk had "demanded to be present at all of the meetings, despite the fact that the process was meant to be primarily bilateral".

    While some of the talks had indeed been between Israelis and Palestinians only, Indyk's presence at other sessions had harmed progress, the official said without elaborating.

    "In certain meetings, his absence would, indeed, have been advantageous," the official said.

    Other Israeli officials have previously criticized Kerry's role in the talks, with Defense Minister Moshe Yaalon accusing the top U.S. diplomat of acting out of "misplaced obsession and messianic fervor".

    The Israeli official said the Netanyahu government had shown flexibility during the talks and that Indyk had failed to win similar flexibility from Abbas, who turned down ideas for a peace deal presented by the White House and refused to discuss Israel's demand that Palestinians recognize it as a Jewish state.

    Indyk said Abbas had "shut down" after the first six months of talks, while the United States negotiated first with Israel and then with the Palestinians on "bridging proposals" to try to bring them closer together.

    However, Indyk suggested peacemaking may resume eventually, citing the start-and-stop example of former U.S. Secretary of State Henry Kissinger's ultimately successful 1975 effort to disengage Egyptian and Israeli forces in the Sinai.

    "What was true then is also possibly true today," Indyk told a conference hosted by the Washington Institute for Near East Policy think tank. "In the Middle East, it's never over."

    Palestinians must realize AMRIKA can do nothing over Israel to help them to get dependent Palestine.

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #65 - May 10, 2014, 01:05 PM

    yeez, I asked you first, and you responded with a question finmad
    My answer is somewhere between the pre-67 borders and now.

     I am curious here did you read/know anything about  2000_Camp_David_Summit?  Let me add some links on this from both sides

    2000_Camp_David_Summit links
    Quote


    VIDOES
    Quote


    Quote
    I think Israel should hold onto the Golan Heights as a buffer zone,

      Golan heights is nothing to do with Palestinians., that is between Israel and Syria

    Quote
    come to an agreement with the Palestinians over how the West Bank should be divided, and Jerusalem IMO can't realistically be divided so it either remains under Israeli control or becomes it's own independent entity as was originally planned (a bit like the Vatican) with the residents being given a choice over Palestinian or Israeli citizenship. Perhaps ruled by some kind of committee where Arabs and Jews are equally represented and I believe the holy sites should continue to be administered by their respective groups. Of course, this is highly unlikely to happen and I don't really think there's a straightforward way of solving this mess.

    So your point is all the Jewish  settlements in the west bank must be removed and build a wall at the border??  Jewish governments would have EASILY AGREED FOR THAT until that 1967 war  but Islamic mind  sets of Arab heroes never allowed that.

     I tell you this.,    in 2014  Palestinians are NOT going to get even that 2000 camp David agreement. The world is not as isolated as it was in 1960s, 70s  or year  2000.,   Every one is changing except Islamic mindsets.

    PLEASE WATCH THE FIRST VIDEO..   So what do we do if Israel/Jewish folks living in settlements  do not  want to vacate those settlements?   

    1). Present Arab population in Israel is Arabs ~1,688,600 roughly 20.%  of Israel population   should we move them in to west bank and move Jewish settlements in to Israel(before 1967 borders)??

    2). Or let the Jewish folks live in west bank  and West bank govt will be SECULAR and they will have full freedom for their religions and participate in Elections in west bank.  So can the Arab Govt, US of A ..UN  etc assure the safety of Jewish folks living in west bank?

    3).  would it be possible for Jewish folks to move back to the countries they came from??  Before 1967 war they used to live all over middle east including Algeria and Tunisia..

    4).. Go for all out war and kill every body let the nature start evolving again

    So Al-Alethia any more Ideas for that peace or piece of STUPID LAND?

    Quote
    Huh Huh? ISIS is Al-Qaeda in Iraq, they were recently disowned by Al-Qaeda, and emerged during the Iraq War, during which they fought coalition forces and Shi'as. They never had anything to do with the U.S. or the Zionists

    Yap  Al-Qaeda and all other Islamic terror groups including the present  ISIS or ISIL   are the Creation of US of A in the times of Mr. Regan against Russia + keeping  poodle puppys as rulers of middle east and that goes to many nations around Israel.

    Solving that problem is not that easy., But it can be easily solved if we remove ISLAMIC MIND SETS from those who are living there..

    Anyways I am fed with this problem..  again PLEASE WATCH THAT LONG video .. the first video ..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #66 - May 10, 2014, 02:11 PM

    Dear yeez, that's too many links. I have an assignment to finish right now so I'll come back to this asap. Okay?
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #67 - May 16, 2014, 02:57 PM

    Dear yeez, that's too many links. I have an assignment to finish right now so I'll come back to this asap. Okay?

    well Al-Alethia is still reading on this problem.. now let me add more to her list of reading

     I am not sure  Al-Alethia and how  many others   are familiar with the tragedy of Palestinian migration the so called NAKABA  from the present Israel,  but that well known  writer from Arab News.com Mr.  Abdulateef Al-Mulhim reminds the ground realities on that Israel/Palestine problem to the people who are affected and to those who are interested in solving it.   Anyways let me give some link of that  1948 Palestinian exodus, So called  the Nakba in Arabic
    Quote

      

    Off course there  are zillion links for the past 70 years on that and one must read all sides to understand the real story. Anyways so today's Arab News.com publishes an article on that problem with a heading May 15: Nakba or defeat?  let me put that here
    Quote
    A few weeks ago, many people in the Arab world heard a name, Joshua Teitelbaum, an Israeli senior fellow at the Dayan Center for Middle Eastern Studies and the Goldman visiting associate professor at Stanford’s Center on Democracy and the Rule of Law. Ironically, it is the Arabs who made him famous.

    He penned a book about the region. In the beginning, many refused to translate the book into Arabic because of his nationality. However, the book reportedly got translated. The question is: Do the Arabs really know Israel? Most likely the answer is no. The reason for that is we don’t read their literature but most Israeli scholars and politicians read everything written in the Arab world. The Arabs are not known for heavy and extensive reading, let alone reading Israeli literature or translating it.

    Since 1948 it is not considered appropriate to read or translate a book written by an Israeli author that could help us understand Israel. Interestingly, in case of falling ill it is fine to use a cure discovered by an Israeli scientist. So, what happened on May 14, 1948?

    It was the day when the state of Israel emerged on the world map. Do we know the rest of the story? No. We don’t know the entire story because we are wont of dealing with events with emotions. One day after the United Nations mandate (May 15), a long and bloody conflict broke out and after the dust settled, the Arabs called it Nakba or the Day of Catastrophe. It was a defeat but the Arabs chose to call it a catastrophe. Many Palestinians were displaced from their homeland and were promised that they would return to their homes soon. Despite the passage of over six decades, the promise has yet to be delivered. The thousands of Palestinians who fled their homes have turned into millions.

    The question now is what if those Palestinians had accepted the mandate and decided to live side by side with the Israelis? I ask the readers to please note that I am just asking a question. So, would the fate of the Palestinians be the same? The reason I am asking is that we read reports that the Palestinian refugees are not allowed fleeing the atrocities in Syria and seeking refuge in Lebanon. That is double the agony.

    There are many facts that were not clear to the Palestinians on May 15, 1948. Many of them didn’t have to flee their homes. It is said that it was the Mufti (Hussini) who encouraged them to flee. At the end of the day, the Mufti wasn’t a popular figure in the West or in then USSR because of his stand on the Nazis. And yes, it is true that many Palestinians were attacked and murdered but on that day it was chaos and all sides were fighting each other. On that day, Israel didn’t have a fully organized IDF so they wanted to disarm the Irgun and when refused, the IDF attacked one of their ships. In other words there was havoc but the Palestinians could have had acted more wisely.

    As time passed, the Palestinians were promised to return to their homes but 66 years later with many wars and loss of human lives, the conflict continues. Since May 15, 1948 till 1967, the Palestinians and all Arab nations insisted that either all lands or no peace. In the course, the Palestinians were used, abused and misled even by their own leaders. Palestinians’ agony became a moneymaking machine for some of the Palestinian elite. Many Arab and non-Arab countries extended financial aid but the average Palestinian received nothing from the aid. Many of the Palestinian leaders will not go to a nearby refugee camp in Syria or Lebanon to see the living standard but they travel thousands of miles to stay in the best hotels in foreign capitals.

    Nowadays, the peace negotiations are at a standstill with no light at the end of the tunnel. And if the Palestinian refugee situation is not resolved then there will be no solution to this conflict. Let us get real and think straight. How can the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank accommodate the millions of Palestinians from the refugee camps? And even if full peace is achieved and the two-state solution is accepted, how are we going to relocate millions of refugees back to theirs’ or their grandfathers’ towns and villages? The Palestinian-Israeli conflict could have been resolved on May 15, 1948 by either accepting the United Nations mandate or by absorbing the thousands of Palestinian refugees into the Arab world. Tomorrow, it is May 15, 2014 and we are not only back to square one but we are far away from it. And finally, I tell the Palestinians, don’t fool yourself. No one has ever felt your pain. Just look at what some regimes in the Arab world are doing to their own people. If they don’t care about their own people’s pain, then what will make them care about your pain? In the past, the Palestinians had better chances for peace but they never read the fine prints or between the lines.


    Well after reading that I can only say that I hope Abdulateef Al-Mulhim has safe place to live .

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #68 - May 16, 2014, 04:11 PM

    Quote
    Well after reading that I can only say that I hope Abdulateef Al-Mulhim has safe place to live .

    Ha! I know right, something tells me such sentiments will not be received well by many Muslims, or rather "Arab heroes with Islamic mindset", as you refer to them Grin

    I'm watching the first video and going through the links...it's gonna take a while, lol. I promise I'll get there...eventually, but I may be sidetracked by uni stuff.
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #69 - May 22, 2014, 01:16 PM

    That was a good video, yeez. Very informative. Sharon was even worse than I thought finmad They didn’t really mention how big of a role the right of return played in the 2000 Camp David agreement, I was always under the impression that that was a huge point of contention. I agree that it was a good deal and the Palestinians are probably not going to get a better one; that’s highly unfortunate.

    Quote
    So your point is all the Jewish  settlements in the west bank must be removed and build a wall at the border??


    Yep, the West Bank is Palestinian land and the Israelis living there are colonialists who were set up there with the purpose of preventing a viable Palestinian state from being created, and also because of some nonsense religious beliefs about Eretz Israel. Either they leave or they be stripped of their Israeli citizenship and take Palestinian citizenship and remain there as Palestinians with equal rights as all other Palestinians. If the Palestinians vote for Islamists or end up with a junta, they’re going to have to live with that (which is why I think it is stupid for Jewish settlers to remain). Removing settlements is not an impossible task; they’ve done it before in Gaza and Sinai. If Israel wants to annex more land (Area C of the WB, for example), they have to be willing to give concessions (accepting a large number of Palestinian refugees, for example).

    Quote
    1). Present Arab population in Israel is Arabs ~1,688,600 roughly 20.%  of Israel population   should we move them in to west bank and move Jewish settlements in to Israel(before 1967 borders)??


    Arab-Israelis are Israeli citizens living in Israel; I can’t see any justification for their removal from Israel into the West Bank. The same way any Jewish Palestinians in the West Bank have as much right to be there as Christian or Muslim Palestinians. Israeli settlers, OTOH, are Israeli citizens who are part of an illegal occupation and, quite frankly, they ought to go home.
  • Palestine vs Israel in London
     Reply #70 - May 22, 2014, 01:17 PM

    Quote
    2). Or let the Jewish folks live in west bank  and West bank govt will be SECULAR and they will have full freedom for their religions and participate in Elections in west bank.  So can the Arab Govt, US of A ..UN  etc assure the safety of Jewish folks living in west bank?


    See, yeez, that would be nice but it’s not very realistic. How much are you willing to bet that the majority of Palestinians are going to accept a secular constitution and government? Secularism just isn’t going to happen in the Arab world (unless it is imposed with an iron fist) at this stage. Tunisia is considered one of the more liberal Arab countries and even they’ve got Islam in their constitution; polls show the Palestinians are among the more hardcore Muslims in the region so it’s not going to happen. A theocratic government, likely what a Palestinian state is going to have, is by definition discriminatory and not a great place to live for people who don’t belong to the state-sanctioned religion.

    Quote
    3).  would it be possible for Jewish folks to move back to the countries they came from??  Before 1967 war they used to live all over middle east including Algeria and Tunisia..


    Good luck trying to get Arab countries to compensate expelled Jews from ions ago, and I highly doubt any Israeli Jews really want to move back to Iraq or Yemen anyway.


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