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Theme Changer

 Topic: Jewish & Islamic Prayer

 (Read 2437 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     OP - October 13, 2014, 05:16 PM

    This was posted a long time ago, but I thought it would be interesting for those who haven't seen it.

    It is well known Muhammad copied many things from Judaism. Tawheed - i.e. the strict monotheism, circumcision, praying towards Jerusalem (originally) strict dietary laws (hala/Kosher), shari'ah/holy law, fasting on Ashura/Yom Kippur, men & women covering hair, belief in angels, most prophets are Jewish (apart from I think Saleh and Hud), segregate women, and prayer... plus more that I can't think off offhand...

    In respect of prayer it still strikes me how Muhammad must have just simply copied the Jews of Medina.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SlmaFLmv0jQ
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #1 - October 13, 2014, 06:10 PM

    An interesting subject that I wish I knew more about.  Unfortunately the subject of prayer rituals in the Middle East during this time period is extremely complex and difficult.  As far as I can tell, Islamic prayer seems to have many syncretic features that borrowed from a lot of regional cultures, as well as its own innovations. 

    Even the Qur'anic word for prayer -- salaat -- is a Syriacism.  Strangely, the Qur'anic rasm spells salaat as "slwt," with a medial waw.  Why the 'waw' when Muslim tradition recites this word as having a long "a" in that place?  If written in Arabic as we know it, there should either be no vowel written in the rasm (it it was defectively written as slt) or an alif should be there (written in full as slaat).  But instead 'salat' seems to be written in the rasm in a Syriac-ish pronunciation of slwt, i.e. a long "u" as designated by the 'waw.'  It's very mysterious ... as written, the word seems to be neither Classical Arabic nor Judaic.

    Also, the 'five times a day' aspect of the Islamic prayer ritual appears to have been lifted from competition with the Zoroastrians long after Mohammed -- it's a Persian-ism that has affected the ritual.  Thus the Qur'an, and Qur'anist, reference to prayer three times a day.

    Finally I would copy a whole paragraph from Fred Donner on a related point:

    "A third question relating to the nature of the “Ur-Qur’an” is whether it originated as a liturgical text. Numerous students, as diverse as Neuwirth and Wansbrough, allege the liturgical functions of various Qur’anic passages, and almost everyone who discusses the Qur’an notes that the very word Qur’an is derived from Syriac qeryana, “recitation, liturgy.” But if the “Ur-Qur’an” (or, to use a Wansbrough-friendly formulation, the eventual Qur’an and its presumed Vorlagen) arose to meet liturgical needs in the community, how can we explain the fact that the Islamic ritual prayer/salat requires strikingly little recitation of the Qur’an? Other than the fatiha, recitation of only one long or three short verses of the Qur’an is required, and selection of which verses to recite is left to the individual. Moreover, it is striking that Islam knows no liturgical calendar prescribing specific recitations during prayer for particular seasons of the year, such as is found in Christianity or Judaism. Certainly there is no lack of suitable episodes that one might have used as occasions for such specific liturgical readings, such as the hajj, Ramadan, laylat al-qadr, mi ‘raj, hijra, and so on. The only recitation required in ritual prayer is that of the fatiha, but many scholars (including some early Muslim ones) considered the fatiha not actually to be part of the Qur’an, but rather considered it a prayer that was added to the beginning of Qur’an codices. So the evidence seems to suggest not that the Qur’an originated as prayer liturgy, but rather that a few elements drawn from the prayer liturgy were used to embellish the Qur’an. The implication is that the Islamic prayer ritual and the Qur’an text, whatever it originally was, developed independently."

    Fascinating stuff ...
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #2 - October 13, 2014, 06:20 PM

    I posted this video in a thread for the similarities between Judaism&Islam
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=26947.msg771192#msg771192
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #3 - October 13, 2014, 06:41 PM

    Mo wanted to be jewish, I think. He copied so much from judaism, islam was modelled on it, he tried to convince the jews he was not only one of them but a jewish prophet. In fact, did Mo have jewish blood?

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #4 - October 13, 2014, 08:45 PM

    The other day I saw a muslim on television doing his prayers and then I thought of imitating the movements. I was surprised that it felt a bit like yoga and I could imagine it being a good meditation practice  grin12.
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #5 - October 13, 2014, 09:18 PM

    its uncanny when its shown like that.

    there was a BBC radio documentary on Muslims who do yoga and face opposition because its linked with Hinduism. A Muslim lady said the process of praying, the physical stretching can be like yoga!

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #6 - October 13, 2014, 09:39 PM

    Yeah, I think it resembles Ashtanga yoga, which is always a certain series of movement.

    Last August I went to church for the first time in 24 years. I didn't like the experience because the priest only asked for special consideration for persecuted christians in other countries and the christians at home, but there were elements in mass that I find in yoga as well, such as the singing together and the standing up and sitting down and kneeling at certain points (which I did not follow at that moment because I didn't feel I should). And then I thougt, I have replaced the catholic belief for something much better and I felt I am in a way religious, which I didn't expect.

    Well, long story short, I can imagine that some muslims feel yoga is not appropiate for muslims, but I think it just depends on what you want from it. Yoga is so good for you! Smiley
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #7 - October 14, 2014, 04:15 AM

    Zaotar, could the "slwt" rasm stand for salawat? As in liturgical praise for the various prophets (www.sufilive.com/salawat/).

    That would be weird if salat and salawat are the same word. Maybe it's actually "salut" so I'll raise a glass of wine for a toast five times a day!
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #8 - October 14, 2014, 09:28 AM

    Salawaat is just the plural of Salaat/Salaah -  صلاة‎  pl. صلوات - It means prayer, as in the formal Islamic prayer, but also means blessings (usually used in the plural in this sense) that we send on the prophets i.e. when we say: Salla-allahu alayhi wa sallim. The Salla at the begining is the verb صَلَّى from which the same root that the noun Salaat is from.

    As Zaotar says, it is spelt with a 'waw' in the Qur'an for some strange reason. For example verse 3 of al-Baqara:

     ٱلَّذِينَ يُؤْمِنُونَ بِٱلْغَيْبِ وَيُقِيمُونَ ٱلصَّلٰوةَ وَممَّا رَزَقْنَاهُمْ يُنْفِقُونَ


    Though dictionaries usually give the root as صلو
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #9 - October 14, 2014, 09:48 AM

    ............Last August I went to church for the first time in 24 years. I didn't like the experience because the priest only asked for special consideration for persecuted christians in other countries and the christians at home, ...

    Hello Senga long time no see.,

    those are NOT priests.. they are PESTS OF CHRISTIANITY Senga

    Quote
    ..........Well, long story short, I can imagine that some muslims feel yoga is not appropiate for muslims, but I think it just depends on what you want from it. Yoga is so good for you! Smiley..........

     well same way., They are not normal Muslim folks.. They are IDIOTS OF ISLAM who often preach and propagate such nonsense

    Very few fools who preach any of these religions understand the origins and reasons for these so-called religions  to come in to the lives of human society

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #10 - October 14, 2014, 09:56 AM

    Came across this interesting factoid lol:

    Egypt[edit]
    The caliphs of Fatimid dynasty in Egypt were known to be Judeophiles, according to Leon Poliakov. They paid regularly to support the Jewish institutions (such as the rabbinical academy of Jerusalem). A significant number of their ministers and counselors were Jews. Benjamin of Tuleda, a famous 12th-century Jewish explorer, described the Caliph al Abbasi as a "great king ... kind unto Israel". He further mentions Muslims and Jews being involved in common devotions, such as visiting the grave of Ezekiel, whom both religions regard as a prophet.[70]


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_and_antisemitism
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #11 - October 14, 2014, 10:12 AM

    Hello Senga long time no see.,

    those are NOT priests.. they are PESTS OF CHRISTIANITY Senga
     well same way., They are not normal Muslim folks.. They are IDIOTS OF ISLAM who often preach and propagate such nonsense

    Very few fools who preach any of these religions understand the origins and reasons for these so-called religions  to come in to the lives of human society

    with best regards
    yeezevee

    Hi there yeezevee,

    I agree Smiley.

    Yeah, at the moment I have been unemployed for 3 months, bored shitless and feeling very lonely. So you will see me here more often Smiley. I have to have some contact with the outside world and I like this forum.

    Greetz
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #12 - October 14, 2014, 11:28 AM

    Hi there yeezevee,

    I agree Smiley.

    Yeah, at the moment I have been unemployed for 3 months, bored shitless and feeling very lonely. So you will see me here more often Smiley. I have to have some contact with the outside world and I like this forum.

    Greetz


    Hi Senga..   I am sorry to know about that .. No..no don't get bored.. get busy and work hard.. Apply  everywhere I am sure you will get something somewhere .. But you are right., West in general loosing in this JOB CREATION MARKET unless you are in to the  business  of  manufacturing weapons and weapons mass destruction

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Jewish & Islamic Prayer
     Reply #13 - October 14, 2014, 11:45 AM

    LOL, yeezevee, I hate weapons. I'd like to offer something good to the world, nothing negative.
    Someone contacted me just now about a job, so maybe in the near future I will be contributing to society again Smiley.
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