❀ Homosexuality

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❀ Homosexuality
OP - December 05, 2014, 02:25 PM

I had a conversation with someone (an atheist) a while ago who told me homosexuality was not normal and that it was a 'choice'. I was offended, obviously and said that I knew a lot of people who wish they were straight. They also said that there were no homosexual animals in nature, and that's why homosexuality was not normal.

What are your views on this?

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Reply #1 - December 05, 2014, 02:27 PM

Wikipedia link to homosexual behavior in animals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_behavior_in_animals

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Reply #2 - December 05, 2014, 02:33 PM

My view is that just because someone is an atheist that does not make that someone bright or educated or humanist.

The high rate of suicides among homosexual humans wouldn't be there if they could just choose to fit into the heterosexual norm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_among_LGBT_youth

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Reply #3 - December 05, 2014, 02:34 PM

I would want to know why animal behavior should be a guideline to what is "normal" and "non-normal" human behavior. Like, what is the rational behind it, and how do you define exactly what kind of animal behavior should be the "norm"? Sexuality in the animal kingdom is extremely diverse. And homosexual behavior is present among a wide sample of animals (primates, birds and other mammals for example). Homosexual behavior among primates and apes is more or less the norm rather than an exception.

And if we just discard the whole debate whether or not you are born as a homosexual or not, let us ask ourselves a very simple question. Do any of us truly believe that a young teenage boy or girl who is bullied and ostracized because of their sexuality, would just not "chose" to be straight and instead fall into depression and commit suicide (which is very high among young LGBT's due to views and people like your friend you mentioned)? The whole "it's a choice" has no basis whatsoever in any study ever done, to my knowledge. And even though we can't say beyond certainty that you are "born" gay (however, there has been some talk about the "gay gene" lately and studies done on the topic that may suggest that in reality you are born with a predisposition), I think that people who actually identify as bi/gay have a bit more saying in the matter than your friend and personal baseless opinions.

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Reply #4 - December 05, 2014, 02:40 PM

The consensus is that (homo)sexuality is not a choice and is the result of environmental, genetic, and other factors. Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter - it's nobodies business except yours.
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Reply #5 - December 05, 2014, 02:46 PM

Here are some academic lectures on the topic.

Dr Ray Blanchard on Gay Brother Studies
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nQKXiZc3FXg

Sexual Orientation, Science and Society

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAu9zl_dgE

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Reply #6 - December 05, 2014, 02:50 PM

Quote from: Ri on December 05, 2014, 02:25 PM
hey also said that there were no homosexual animals in nature, and that's why homosexuality was not normal.

Well that's not true for a start.

I'm inclined to think it is not a choice simply because of the amount of homosexuals who say that is the case. But I don't know for sure myself.

But either way, who cares?

Lots of lifestyle choices - are... erm... choices lol. If it makes you happy and are not hurting anyone - then what's the problem?
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Reply #7 - December 05, 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote from: Descent on December 05, 2014, 02:40 PM
Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter - it's nobodies business except yours.

This^
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Reply #8 - December 05, 2014, 02:54 PM

While we are on the topic, you guys should definitely watch this if you haven't already.

I found the interview pretty interesting.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFF3vim-Uwc

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Reply #9 - December 05, 2014, 02:56 PM

Quote from: Descent on December 05, 2014, 02:40 PM
The consensus is that (homo)sexuality is not a choice and is the result of environmental, genetic, and other factors. Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter - it's nobodies business except yours.

The whole answer in two sentences!

By the way, Ri, I'm actually really liking that I know who made your threads before I even click on them.
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Reply #10 - December 06, 2014, 12:16 AM

Haha! I'm odd with styles. Thank you.

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Reply #11 - December 06, 2014, 02:04 PM

Quote from: Descent on December 05, 2014, 02:40 PM
The consensus is that (homo)sexuality is not a choice and is the result of environmental, genetic, and other factors. Even if it was a choice, it wouldn't matter - it's nobodies business except yours.

perfect response.
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Reply #12 - March 15, 2015, 07:46 PM

Just because He/she/they are atheists doesn't not mean the whole world in straight and every other sexuality is wrong.
There are homosexuality among animals. an example would be Penguins, ducks and even Lions.

They can not simple say what is right and unnatural. One can't simple define normal.
Always remember:
1. What is normal for the Spider, is chaos for the fly.
2. Eve came from Adam ribs? And you call that normal? Since when could men actually give ''birth''... But all of a sudden since its god who they came from, its a good enough reason.

If god created the universe and basically everything we know till this day. Then he also created homosexuality.

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Reply #13 - March 15, 2015, 11:18 PM

Quote from: GuyWithAnA on March 15, 2015, 07:46 PM
Just because He/she/they are atheists doesn't not mean the whole world in straight and every other sexuality is wrong.
There are homosexuality among animals. an example would be Penguins, ducks and even Lions.

They can not simple say what is right and unnatural. One can't simple define normal.
Always remember:
1. What is normal for the Spider, is chaos for the fly.
2. Eve came from Adam ribs? And you call that normal? Since when could men actually give ''birth''... But all of a sudden since its god who they came from, its a good enough reason.

If god created the universe and basically everything we know till this day. Then he also created homosexuality.

To be fair, scientifically it is normal to be straight with homosexual tendencies being outliers. This is because the majority are straight. All sexualities lie within the broadest range of sexualities for humans. The question with outlying sexualities is 'do they harm anyone?'. Homosexuality doesn't, Paedophilia does; they are not equatable in any way.
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Reply #14 - March 16, 2015, 02:31 AM

I agree that the better question is to ask is it harmful, but the natural argument is also powerful. And even if it is a mistake, it's a natural one.

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #15 - March 17, 2015, 06:29 AM

Quote from: Lilyesque on March 15, 2015, 11:18 PM
To be fair, scientifically it is normal to be straight with homosexual tendencies being outliers. This is because the majority are straight. All sexualities lie within the broadest range of sexualities for humans. The question with outlying sexualities is 'do they harm anyone?'. Homosexuality doesn't, Paedophilia does; they are not equatable in any way.

Basically everything is normal as long as it's not harmful?
Thats a really nice thought! Thanks

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Reply #16 - March 17, 2015, 09:37 AM

Not everything that isn't harmful is normal. But does that matter?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #17 - March 17, 2015, 11:41 AM

Quote from: GuyWithAnA on March 17, 2015, 06:29 AM
Basically everything is normal as long as it's not harmful?
Thats a really nice thought! Thanks

No, scientifically the norm is the average. On average humans are heterosexual, but the range of sexuality is broader. Homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, paedophilia, philia of pubescant people (11-14/15). The last two are the only harmful ones, the last one dubiously (15 year olds can be very mature or very immature with even in early 20s people being vulnerable). This harm makes them in need of being criminalised.
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Reply #18 - March 17, 2015, 11:43 AM

Un-normal does not mean unnatural.
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Reply #19 - March 19, 2015, 07:58 AM

Quote from: Lilyesque on March 17, 2015, 11:41 AM

No, scientifically the norm is the average. On average humans are heterosexual, but the range of sexuality is broader. Homosexual, bisexual, pansexual, asexual, paedophilia, philia of pubescant people (11-14/15). The last two are the only harmful ones, the last one dubiously (15 year olds can be very mature or very immature with even in early 20s people being vulnerable). This harm makes them in need of being criminalised.

Im discovering the word 'norm' is not a word I'm a fan off.
Recently there's been a feature about a Muslim gay guy, who is kind of living the two lives in one. He says he experience more islamophic critic than homophobes.
I'll try to link it in here later. (Mobile version) but also its in Danish.

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Reply #20 - March 19, 2015, 08:53 AM

GuyWithAnA, do you want to make an introduction thread?

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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Reply #21 - March 19, 2015, 09:04 AM

The case is you get extreme people in religion and extreme atheists as well, both make a mistake of confining themselves to a narrow world view.

Descent said it best, why does it matter if it's 'normal'

Here is another angle to look at this: Say you have a boyfriend, you guys have sex (gasp) before marriage (gasp again). Say you guys enjoy things in the bedroom that are 'not the norm' (get my drift?), won't elaborate on what those things could be . My point being is that in that case what you and your boyfriend do in the bedroom with MUTUAL CONSENT is NO ONE ELSE S BUSINESS.

So then, why should the sexual preferences of a gay person be anyone else's business?

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Reply #22 - March 19, 2015, 12:27 PM

Quote from: Quod Sum Eris on March 19, 2015, 08:53 AM
GuyWithAnA, do you want to make an introduction thread?

I am going to and had It planned. But just haven't had the time yet :/ but I will

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Reply #23 - March 19, 2015, 12:30 PM

Quote from: purelyatheist on March 19, 2015, 09:04 AM
The case is you get extreme people in religion and extreme atheists as well, both make a mistake of confining themselves to a narrow world view.

Descent said it best, why does it matter if it's 'normal'

Here is another angle to look at this: Say you have a boyfriend, you guys have sex (gasp) before marriage (gasp again). Say you guys enjoy things in the bedroom that are 'not the norm' (get my drift?), won't elaborate on what those things could be . My point being is that in that case what you and your boyfriend do in the bedroom with MUTUAL CONSENT is NO ONE ELSE S BUSINESS.

So then, why should the sexual preferences of a gay person be anyone else's business?

Agreed! And as I said un-normal does not mean unnatural.
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