Contemporary Scholarship of Islam

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Helaine
- Not Religious
- Member
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
OP - April 30, 2015, 04:27 PM

Hi, I came here because I'm curious about Islam's true nature/origin. Specifically, the one that challenges the usual Islamic rethoric like "Quran is unchanged, uncorrupted word of God", or some other claims like "Ibrahim built the original Kaaba".

I want to know what secular scholars and ACTUAL PROOF says. Archeology, languages, geological situation, etc. I mean, I read the death of Prophet from exmuslims, it is much more critical than what muslims say; free of mushy-gushy feeling and straight to the point. Confrontation with Ali, Fitna, power struggle, stuff like that. I really don't want to read about how the prophet rode a flying donkey and live with God forever and ever (apologist version of "history").

--

I've read this thread by Zaotar:
www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27494.msg788021#msg788021 (I can't post link)

Which suggests that language spoken by Muhammad is different than Arabic in Quran? That pretty much crush the "uncorrupted, unchanged" narrative, does that not?

--

I also read some posts by yeezeevee who seems to be sure that Muhammad in Quran&Hadith is more of an urban legend, they weren't all the same Muhammad. Any articles to strongly support this theory? That Quran was compiled by someone else and not by Muhammad?

--

Another one, I've heard about geological inconsistencies, the early mosques were not heading toward Mecca, "Where is the actual ancient Mecca?"

Is this hoax or is there proof for this?

--

What do the contemporary scholars think of Islam, Muhammad, and the Sahaba?

Thanks for your time guys, nice meeting you here
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #1 - April 30, 2015, 04:47 PM

Quote from: Helaine on April 30, 2015, 04:27 PM
Hi, I came here because I'm curious about Islam's true nature/origin. Specifically, the one that challenges the usual Islamic rethoric like "Quran is unchanged, uncorrupted word of God", or some other claims like "Ibrahim built the original Kaaba".

Hello Helaine.. welcome to the forum .,, well something incorrupted and unchanged can not automatically become word of god., If god is the product of evolved human monkey mind then first we need to question the god of such mindset.. anyway I am glad you are reading cemb..

You know Islamic theology of 19th and 20th century is like a chameleon., I used to have that damn pet., It used change color depending who was carrying it. "Ibrahim built the original Kaaba".?? which Kaaba? the present sand land Kaaba ? or some other people's temple somewhere else?
Quote
I want to know what secular scholars and ACTUAL PROOF says. Archeology, languages, geological situation, etc. I mean, I read the death of Prophet from exmuslims, it is much more critical than what muslims say; free of mushy-gushy feeling and straight to the point. Confrontation with Ali, Fitna, power struggle, stuff like that. I really don't want to read about how the prophet rode a flying donkey and live with God forever and ever (apologist version of "history").

well you need to read a lot...

Quote
Quote
I've read this thread by Zaotar:
www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27494.msg788021#msg788021 (I can't post link)

Which suggests that language spoken by Muhammad is different than Arabic in Quran? That pretty much crush the "uncorrupted, unchanged" narrative, does that not?--

I also read some posts by yeezeevee who seems to be sure that Muhammad in Quran&Hadith is more of an urban legend, they weren't all the same Muhammad. Any articles to strongly support this theory? That Quran was compiled by someone else and not by Muhammad?

Helaine Zaotar ok., his posts are very consistent but be careful about what you read from yeezevee.. that guy often write in Quran..
--
Quote
Another one, I've heard about geological inconsistencies, the early mosques were not heading toward Mecca, "Where is the actual ancient Mecca?"

there is little doubt on that..

"Muhammad" is word for a praise worthy guy/girl.. you could use it to any one any leader and good guy in the town., So I say early Islam had many Muhammad's . Muhammad of Quran is different from Muhammad of ORIGINAL hadith ., and Muhammad of Cock -bull stories you read in zillion hadith books different from Muhammad of Quran.. incidentally THERE IS NO WORD "MECCA" IN QUARN and "Muhammad" word was only mentioned in couple of verses..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #2 - April 30, 2015, 05:40 PM

Welcome!

Actually a popular summary of current thinking would be very valuable. Is there one? If I get round to contributing to cemb funds it would probably be for that! It might sell billions, Satanic Verses was a bit of a windy night compared to this!

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- Quod Sum Eris
- King of the
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #3 - April 30, 2015, 05:51 PM

As well as articles here, Klingschor is a good resource. You may also want to check out some episodes of the Jinn&Tonic show. Here's one on early islam.

Jinn&Tonic Show: Early Islam (ft. Historian Ian D. Morris) 1/2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kwfd8zMB9z0

2/2

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Yz0TuszAc0

`But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
`Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad. You're mad.'
`How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
`You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #4 - April 30, 2015, 06:04 PM

There are lots of links to current academic work in the Qur'anic studies today thread:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=27568.0

You might also want to look through Zaotar's collected posts for an informed and consistent view:

http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?action=profile;u=6872;sa=showPosts

Ian David Morris's blog is very readable and definitely worth a look:

http://www.iandavidmorris.com/page/5/

Publications list for Patricia Crone with links to most of her articles that are freely available online, some of them much more accessible to the non-specialist than others. You might want to start with the "main semi-popular writings" listed at the end:

https://www.hs.ias.edu/crone/publications

Which side are you on?
- Zimriel
- Member
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #5 - May 01, 2015, 12:03 AM

Quote
Another one, I've heard about geological inconsistencies, the early mosques were not heading toward Mecca, "Where is the actual ancient Mecca?"

Robert Hoyland, "Seeing Islam as Others Saw It", has an appendix on this pp. 560f. He sides AGAINST the revisionists ... but still, Hoyland has to acknowledge their evidence.

Hoyland notes in Islamic tradition that at Samarqand, the Hanafis prayed west and the Shafiis, south. This demands that their mosques had been oriented differently. For this, he cites Bazdawi, Risala fi samt al-qibla, section 9.

Hoyland also notes the excavated masajid of Wasit and Uskaf bani Junayd; that these pointed to northwest Arabia. 564 n. 88.
- Helaine
- Not Religious
- Member
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #6 - May 01, 2015, 09:34 AM

Quote from: yeezevee
"Muhammad" is word for a praise worthy guy/girl.. you could use it to any one any leader and good guy in the town.

So it's a pre-Islamic Arabic custom then?
From Hadiths it seems that there are many other men named Muhammad before him.

--

@Quod Sum Eris
Thanks! I've heard about the Jinn and Tonic Show but they're not really doing well now? :<

--

Quote from: zeca on April 30, 2015, 06:04 PM
Publications list for Patricia Crone with links to most of her articles that are freely available online, some of them much more accessible to the non-specialist than others. You might want to start with the "main semi-popular writings" listed at the end:

Regarding Patricia Crone, is she reliable? I heard her old book "Hagarism" was inaccurate.

--

@Zimriel
What do the secular scholars think about this? Was there many "Muhammad"s claiming that the Kaaba was somewhere else?
What is the apologist response to this?

--

Thanks guys
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #7 - May 01, 2015, 09:48 AM

For an assessment of Patricia Crone you could read this article by Chase Robinson:

http://islamichistorycommons.org/crrarticles/wp-content/uploads/sites/59/2014/11/Crone-and-the-end-of-Orientalism.pdf

Hagarism was an early work and she later backed away from some of it's conclusions, but yes she is a reliable scholar.

Which side are you on?
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #8 - May 01, 2015, 09:53 AM

Hagarism is available free on line and I strongly recommend it.

Everything has inaccuracies, the point of that sort of comment is to stop people reading stuff some people do not want read!

I think it is basically in the correct area.

There is now further supporting evidence - the Islamic term for Jesus Isa is very likely from an ancient Hebrew term for the man or the stranger, and Islam may have fossilised an ancient tradition reflected for example in the story of the burning bush.

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #9 - May 01, 2015, 11:56 AM

yeezevee: "Muhammad" is word for a praise worthy guy/girl.. you could use it to any one any leader and good guy in the town.

Quote from: Helaine on May 01, 2015, 09:34 AM
So it's a pre-Islamic Arabic custom then?
From Hadiths it seems that there are many other men named Muhammad before him.

That is an interesting point you raised dear Helaine., you are absolutely right the word "Muhammad" is mentioned innumerable times in hadith but i think(I am not sure) that word appears to be always used to that unknown "Muhammad" the prophet of Islam. CORRECT ME IF I AM WRONG AND IF YOU FIND THE WORD "MUHAMMAD IN HADITH that is not used for prophet of Islam. You are making me to scan and read through all those hadith junk again.

The other question is the word "Muhammad" used by the pagan tribes of Arabia as as adjective to any person who is "Praiseworthy of his work /cause . There is a problem there., We hardly have any authentic(direct/indirect) literature of Arab pagans or other writer of that time who mentioned the word "Muhammad" in their works.. I mean I have not come across the history of those Arab pagan folks except those poems "The Seven Golden Odes of Pagan Arabia" or so-called " Al-Muʿallaqāt,"

anyway it is worth reading ..so let me read it again.. And please continue to explore the subject and educate the readers..

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #10 - May 01, 2015, 12:05 PM

^Another question might be whether "Muhammad" was ever used to describe Jesus or other biblical figures.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #11 - May 01, 2015, 12:08 PM

Quote from: zeca on May 01, 2015, 12:05 PM
^Another question might be whether "Muhammad" was ever used to describe Jesus or other biblical figures.

You mean in the Arabic literature of Pre-Islamic Arabia or even "During that alleged Muhammad "Prophet of Islam's" time? or by Christians of Arabia of that time??

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- zeca
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #12 - May 01, 2015, 12:17 PM

^Any of these really. I've no idea of the answer.

Which side are you on?
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #13 - May 02, 2015, 12:49 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbg7YoXiKn0&list=RDVbg7YoXiKn0#t=6

well let me listen to lyrics and some from that Soul singer Ben E. King(RIP). and on the way scribble something interesting on what Helaine pointed out at
Quote from: Helaine on May 01, 2015, 09:34 AM

From Hadiths it seems that there are many other men named Muhammad before him.............

"Form hadith it seems there are men named as "Muhammad"" .. So on that let us get a bit of those guys and their stories and the times they lived...

Quote
(1). Yahya related to me from Malik from Rabia ibn Abi Abd ar-Rahman that al Qasim ibn Muhammad said, "None of the companions that I met prayed dhuhr until well after noon,"(i.e.until when the sun had lost its fierceness). ...(Book #1, Hadith #1.1.12)

(2). Malik related to us from Abdullah ibn Yazid the mawla of al-Aswad ibn Sufyan, from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman from Muhammad ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Thawban from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "When the heat is fierce delay the prayer until it gets cooler, for scorching heat is a part of the blast of Jahannam." He added, "The Fire complained to its Lord, so He allowed it two breaths in each year, a breath in winter and a breath in summer." ......(Book #1, Hadith #1.7.28)

(3) Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Muhammad ibn Talhafrom Uthman ibn Abd ar-Rahman that his father related to him that he had heard that Umar ibn al-Khattab used to wash what was beneath his waist wrapper with water. ........(Book #2, Hadith #2.1.6)

(4) Yahya related to me from Malik from Yahya ibn Said from Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn alHarith at-Taymi from Yahya ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Hatib that Umar ibn al-Khattab set out on one occasion with a party of riders, one of whom was Amr ibn al-As. They came to a watering place and Amr ibn al-As asked the man who owned it whether wild beasts drank from it. Umar ibn al-Khattab told the owner of the watering place not to answer, since the people drank after the wild beasts and the wild beasts drank after them. .......... (Book #2, Hadith #2.3.14)

(5) Yahya related to me from Malik from Muhammad ibn Umara from Muhammad ibn Ibrahim that the mother of the son of Ibrahim ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Awf questioned Umm Salama, the wife of the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and said, "I am a woman who wears a long skirt and (sometimes) I walk in dirty places." Umm Salama replied, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'What follows (i.e. clean places) purifies it.' "................... (Book #2, Hadith #2.4.16)

(6) Yahya related to me from Malik that both Muhammad ibn al-Munkadir and Safwan ibn Sulaym transmitted to him from Muhammad ibn Ibrahim ibn al-Harith at-Taymi from Rabia ibn Abdullah ibn al-Hudayr that he had eaten an evening meal with Umar ibn al-Khattab who then prayed without doing wudu. ......................(Book #2, Hadith #2.5.21)

(7) Malik related to me from Ibn Shihab from Muhammad ibn Jubayr ibn Mutim that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I have five names. I am Muhammad. I am Ahmad. I am al-Mahi (the effacer), by whom Allah effaces kufr. I am al-Hashir (the gatherer), before whom people are gathered. I am al-Aqib (the last)." ............(Book #61, Hadith #61.1.1)

well in that casual search..clearly I see 100s of different Muhammads in hadith. That is interesting but these hadith come way after the death of that Alleged prophet of Islam., I guess we should look in to earliest haidth or in to that hadith Qudsi to figure out whether there was any "Muhammad" name attached to any person when this alleged prophet of Islam was alive?

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- yeezevee
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #14 - May 02, 2015, 02:30 PM

Quote from: yeezevee on May 02, 2015, 12:49 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbg7YoXiKn0&list=RDVbg7YoXiKn0#t=6

well in that casual search..clearly I see 100s of different Muhammads in hadith. ............

So I see 100s people who narrated hadith has that adjective "Muhammad" adjacent to their names ..

So I am searching and I am looking for that REAL "Muhammad".. Hello Real Muhammad Could you please stand up... ., on that note these Sahaba guys are interesting characters that you read from Islamic books/sources/hadith.. what ever.. Do we have any "Muhammad" in that Sahaba?? Nah... I don't think so.. And here are Here are the alleged names of Sahabah who related/narrated to the most Hadith that was allegedly collected some 200 years after alleged death of Prophet of Islam.

Quote
1. Abu Hurayrah {Abdur-Rahman} d.59 AH at the age of 78; he narrated 5,374 Ahadith. The number of his students reaches 800.

2. Abdullah Ibn Abbas d.68 AH at the age of 71; he narrated 2,660.

3. Aisha Bint Abi Bakr ~ Umm al-Mu’minin d.58H at the age of 67; she narrated 2,210.

4. Abdullah Ibn Umar d.73 AH at the age of 84; he narrated 1,630.

5. Jabir Ibn Abdullah d.78 AH at the age of 94; he narrated 1,560.

6. Anas Ibn Malik d.93 AH at the age of 103; he narrated 1,286,

7. Abu Sa’id al -Khudri {رضي الله عنهم} d.74 AH at the age of 84; he narrated 1,170.



and i get this from that good old forum

Quote

A List of the Sahaba who Narrated Hadith and the Number of Hadith they Narrated

İbn Hazm
Jawâmiu’s-Sira

Ebû Muhammad says: This risala is regarding the ones who narrates one or more hadith from RasoolAllah (saw). The Sahabas whom narrated hadith from are listed as: The ones whom narrated thousands of ahadeth. The ones whom narrated more than two thousand ahadith. The ones whom narrated more than a thousand ahadith. The ones whom narrated hundreds ahadith. The ones whom narrated more than two hundred ahadith. The ones whom narrated more than hundred ahadith. The ones whom narrated more than tens of ahadith. The ones whom narrated more than twenty ahadith. The ones whom narrated nineteen ahadith. The ones whom narrated eightteen ahadith. The ones whom narrated seventeen ahadith. And after the list will continue in the same way until the ones whom narrated one hadeth.

The ones whom narrated thousands of ahadeth (sahibu’l-Uluf)

Abu Hurayra (ra) : 5374 (5364)

The ones whom narrated more than two thousand ahadith

Abdullah b Umar b al-Hattab (ra): 2630
Anas b Malik (ra) : two thousand (two hundred) and eightysix
Aisha (ra) : 2210

The ones whom narrated more than a thousand ahadith

Abdullah b Abbas (ra) : 1660
Jabeer b Abdullah (ra): 1540
Abu Sa’id al-Hudree (ra) : 1170

for the rest of the list darultawhid

  and off course darultawhid is closed down ..so go buy that domain.. oh well that is good enough to start with..

hmmm....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nz15Nz7CreU

good stuff..good to hear...

Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything
I renounced my faith to become a kafir,
the beloved betrayed me and turned in to a Muslim
- suki
- Ex-Muslim
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #15 - May 02, 2015, 04:02 PM

I kind of remember discussing this with some christians over a year ago, the name derives from some root consonants in hebrew and there are many variations and meanings such as ahmed, mahmud, hamid etc.. Some variations are hebrew, some arabic and also syriac, in hebrew the root source ahmed means to desire, highly desirable, very lovely or one who desires God. In arabic we know it as praiseworthy, to praise or one who praises God.. So it seems that anyone pre Islam in arabia, who was considered a good person or someone prophet like, a teacher etc, would have been given this title, looks like the early muslims created a unique version "Muhammad" to fit with their fictional prophet.. Similar in the bible both prophets, Jesus and good ordinary folk were called sons of God, sons of man.
- kephas
- Member
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #16 - May 02, 2015, 04:23 PM

I remember reading volker popp's explanation of muhammad as being not "the praised one", but "praised be". This refers to the inscriptions on the dome of the rock. On the dome of the rock, the inscriptions say that jesus is but a messenger. And thus the phrase "muhammadan rasulullah" means not that "muhammad is a messenger of Allah", but "praised be the messenger of Allah", the messenger here referring to Jesus. So instead of the phrase being a testimony of the apostleship of a figure called muhammad, it's actually praising Jesus.

But I don't know that this view is accepted or not by scholars today

"we stand firm calling to allah all the time,
we let them know - bang! bang! - coz it's dawah time!"
- moi
- Pub Regular
- offline
Contemporary Scholarship of Islam
Reply #17 - May 02, 2015, 05:51 PM

Isn't messenger another term for angel or holy man?

When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.

A.A. Milne,

"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
1« Previous thread | Next thread »