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 Topic: Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'

 (Read 4424 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     OP - July 02, 2014, 03:42 PM

    Discuss...

    Quote
    In order to prevent a clash of civilizations, or worse, Islam must reform. This is the contention of many Western peoples. And, pointing to Christianity's Protestant Reformation as proof that Islam can also reform, many are optimistic.

    Overlooked by most, however, is that Islam has been reforming. What is today called "radical Islam" is the reformation of Islam. And it follows the same pattern of Christianity's Protestant Reformation.

    The problem is our understanding of the word "reform." Despite its positive connotations, "reform" simply means to "make changes (in something, typically a social, political, or economic institution or practice) in order to improve it."

    Synonyms of "reform" include "make better," "ameliorate," and "improve"—splendid words all, yet words all subjective and loaded with Western references.

    Muslim notions of "improving" society may include purging it of "infidels" and their corrupt ways; or segregating men and women, keeping the latter under wraps or quarantined at home; or executing apostates, who are seen as traitorous agitators.

    Banning many forms of freedoms taken for granted in the West—from alcohol consumption to religious and gender equality—can be deemed an "improvement" and a "betterment" of society.

    In short, an Islamic reformation need not lead to what we think of as an "improvement" and "betterment" of society—simply because "we" are not Muslims and do not share their reference points and first premises. "Reform" only sounds good to most Western peoples because they, secular and religious alike, are to a great extent products of Christianity's Protestant Reformation; and so, a priori, they naturally attribute positive connotations to the word.

    At its core, the Protestant Reformation was a revolt against tradition in the name of scripture—in this case, the Bible. With the coming of the printing press, increasing numbers of Christians became better acquainted with the Bible's contents, parts of which they felt contradicted what the Church was teaching. So they broke away, protesting that the only Christian authority was "scripture alone," sola scriptura.

    Islam's reformation follows the same logic of the Protestant Reformation—specifically by prioritizing scripture over centuries of tradition and legal debate—but with antithetical results that reflect the contradictory teachings of the core texts of Christianity and Islam.

    As with Christianity, throughout most of its history, Islam's scriptures, specifically its "twin pillars," the Koran (literal words of Allah) and the Hadith (words and deeds of Allah's prophet, Muhammad), were inaccessible to the overwhelming majority of Muslims. Only a few scholars, or ulema—literally, "they who know"—were literate in Arabic and/or had possession of Islam's scriptures. The average Muslim knew only the basics of Islam, or its "Five Pillars."

    In this context, a "medieval synthesis" flourished throughout the Islamic world. Guided by an evolving general consensus (or ijma'), Muslims sought to accommodate reality by, in medieval historian Daniel Pipes' words,

    translat[ing] Islam from a body of abstract, infeasible demands [as stipulated in the Koran and Hadith] into a workable system. In practical terms, it toned down Sharia and made the code of law operational. Sharia could now be sufficiently applied without Muslims being subjected to its more stringent demands… [However,] While the medieval synthesis worked over the centuries, it never overcame a fundamental weakness: It is not comprehensively rooted in or derived from the foundational, constitutional texts of Islam. Based on compromises and half measures, it always remained vulnerable to challenge by purists (emphasis added).

    This vulnerability has now reached breaking point: millions of more Korans published in Arabic and other languages are in circulation today compared to just a century ago; millions of more Muslims are now literate enough to read and understand the Koran compared to their medieval forbears. The Hadith, which contains some of the most intolerant teachings and violent deeds attributed to Islam's prophet, is now collated and accessible, in part thanks to the efforts of Western scholars, the Orientalists. Most recently, there is the Internet—where all these scriptures are now available in dozens of languages and to anyone with a laptop or iPhone.

    In this backdrop, what has been called at different times, places, and contexts "Islamic fundamentalism," "radical Islam," "Islamism," and "Salafism" flourished. Many of today's Muslim believers, much better acquainted than their ancestors with the often black and white words of their scriptures, are protesting against earlier traditions, are protesting against the "medieval synthesis," in favor of scriptural literalism—just like their Christian Protestant counterparts once did...


    Read on at: http://www.meforum.org/4740/islam-protestant-reformation

    Edit: Actually reading through the rest of the article it looks like there's some dubious right-wing Christian apologetics here so I'm not sure it was a great site to link to.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #1 - July 02, 2014, 03:54 PM

    its quite a compelling argument superficially, haven't read the whole article, but have heard it before. Would need to think more on it though.

    Whilst comparing Islam to Christianity / European history of religious reform, wars, through to process of enlightenment may be illuminating and offer perspectives on Islam today it may also obscure and mislead. Not sure we can chart the course of Islam in the future by mapping it onto Christianity's last 500 years.

    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #2 - July 02, 2014, 04:12 PM

    Quote
    haven't read the whole article


    That's probably for the best. It gets all Christian later on.

    I think the basic point of scripture not being accessible to most believers in the past is interesting though.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #3 - July 02, 2014, 04:33 PM

    it's impossible to reform Islam, at least from my perspective, due to the many restrictive teachings and apologists that produce bullshit (i.e. Dr. Zakir Naik) and spew about how Islam is the truth blah blah blah.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #4 - July 02, 2014, 05:11 PM

    The Qur'anist movement is probably closer to Protestantism, with its battle cry of "sola scriptura" ("only the Bible") and its rejection of centuries of church doctrine and tradition for lack of any divine authority.

    Both Islamic and Christian tradition (also Jewish) have always claimed that much later religious doctrines reflect how it "really was" back in the days of the revelation and the first believers.  But Protestantism was just very aggressive about going back to the earliest 'revealed' texts, as opposed to the mountains of tendentious later tradition.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #5 - July 02, 2014, 05:17 PM

    The Qur'anist movement is probably closer to Protestantism, with its battle cry of "sola scriptura" ("only the Bible") and its rejection of centuries of church doctrine and tradition for lack of any divine authority...........

    I am just curious here when did this Qur'anist movement started and why?  

    We know  the  Protestant Reformation started in  early 16th century that  was an attempt to reform the Catholic Church.,  It didn't start to reform  NT  or the Christ...
     

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #6 - July 02, 2014, 05:38 PM

    Its quite a solid argument until you realise the author actually buys into the nonsense that the Protestant reformation is a good thing, and the Islamic one bad.  They are both bad.  Sticking literally to the words of the Bible is no better than doing the same to the Qur'an, and you only have to look at what some Biblical literalists believe to know that - Fred Phelps, Ian Paisley, young earth creationism, homophobia, Orange parades, etc etc. 

    The mulim world needs its own Englightenment, not a reformation.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #7 - July 02, 2014, 06:35 PM

    Quote
    Its quite a solid argument until you realise the author actually buys into the nonsense that the Protestant reformation is a good thing, and the Islamic one bad.


    The argument does skip over a couple of hundred years of Protestants fighting religious wars, burning witches and so on.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #8 - July 02, 2014, 07:06 PM


    The mulim world needs its own Englightenment, not a reformation.

     Enlightenment of Muslim religious world or for that matter any other religious world means "IT IS END OF THEIR RESPECTIVE RELIGIONS & THEIR MAMBO-JUMBO"

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #9 - July 02, 2014, 07:39 PM

    Enlightenment of secularism and liberalism. Not enlightenment of Islam.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #10 - July 02, 2014, 07:43 PM

    The argument does skip over a couple of hundred years of Protestants fighting religious wars, burning witches and so on.


    Its not just history he's skipped over but parts of the present.  He's played a kind of sleight of hand by describing the modern west as democratic and then describing it as a product of the reformation.  The truth is that if you want to see parts of the modern west which are products of the reformation, look at the US bible belt or East Belfast.  The free, democratic parts of the west are products of the Enlightenment.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #11 - July 02, 2014, 09:19 PM

    Its quite a solid argument until you realise the author actually buys into the nonsense that the Protestant reformation is a good thing, and the Islamic one bad.  They are both bad.  Sticking literally to the words of the Bible is no better than doing the same to the Qur'an, and you only have to look at what some Biblical literalists believe to know that - Fred Phelps, Ian Paisley, young earth creationism, homophobia, Orange parades, etc etc. 

    The mulim world needs its own Englightenment, not a reformation.


    Consider, however, that the Bible and the Qur'an are largely incomprehensible and opaque, so they don't clearly specify principles of action or morality as applied to the modern world.  Shariah has notoriously little relation to the Qur'an (see Schacht et al) because it's almost impossible to extract determinate and consistent legal or ethical principles from the Qur'an --- apart from generally railing against the associators.  The hadith were largely created to solve that problem.

    The whole reason that hadith and its Christian equivalent -- Catholic doctrine -- emerged was because the holy text alone is almost useless as a guide to actual life, you need tradition to try to make sense of it.  That's generally a good thing, because it makes it easier for you to interpret the holy text more freely.

    After all, Biblical literalists are notoriously incompetent Biblical scholars.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #12 - July 03, 2014, 10:35 AM

    If you ask me, the Protestant reformation has already happened in Islam in the 18th Century. Many parallels  can be drawn, such as the religious conservatism, the supreme authority of scripture etc.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #13 - July 03, 2014, 10:48 AM

    are quranists liberal or extra hardcore?

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #14 - July 03, 2014, 11:00 AM

    If you ask me, the Protestant reformation has already happened in Islam in the 18th Century. Many parallels  can be drawn, such as the religious conservatism, the supreme authority of scripture etc.


    They all still think that the Qu'ran can only be understood if written in its 'original' classical Arabic though; like the Catholic church way back in the 15-16 hundreds saying 'Nooo it has to be in Latin'. I know there are translations but I don't think these are thought of as actual qu'rans are they?
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #15 - July 03, 2014, 11:12 AM

    are quranists liberal or extra hardcore?


    Liberal. They have twisted interpretations of the Quran of their own which suits secularism.
  • Re: Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #16 - July 03, 2014, 11:55 AM

    They all still think that the Qu'ran can only be understood if written in its 'original' classical Arabic though; like the Catholic church way back in the 15-16 hundreds saying 'Nooo it has to be in Latin'. I know there are translations but I don't think these are thought of as actual qu'rans are they?


    No. However:

    I think the argument deserves a little more credit than it is given. As a native (Anatolian, western Oghuz) Turkish speaker I find it notoriously difficult to translate most Turkish into English. I'm not claiming that the apolegetic argument is correct (for it quite blatantly is not) but I'm sure that reading the qu'ran in its classical arabic will endow one with greater societal context. That of course does not make the book inerrant, divine, or perfect, in any shape or form.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #17 - July 03, 2014, 12:16 PM

    Liberal. They have twisted interpretations of the Quran of their own which suits secularism.

    I see Smiley
    That's good to know.

    Quote from: ZooBear 

    • Surah Al-Fil: In an epic game of Angry Birds, Allah uses birds (that drop pebbles) to destroy an army riding elephants whose intentions were to destroy the Kaaba. No one has beaten the high score.

  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #18 - July 03, 2014, 12:32 PM

    No. However:

    I think the argument deserves a little more credit than it is given. As a native (Anatolian, western Oghuz) Turkish speaker I find it notoriously difficult to translate most Turkish into English. I'm not claiming that the apolegetic argument is correct (for it quite blatantly is not) but I'm sure that reading the qu'ran in its classical arabic will endow one with greater societal context. That of course does not make the book inerrant, divine, or perfect, in any shape or form.


    It's all very well being familiar with a modern idiom, but what familiarity can one really have with an idiom that's allegedly 13 centuries old?

    I'm going to advance a half-thought-through contention here: a degree of hermeneutical blindness becomes inevitable over time, no matter how self-referential the terms of commentary (i.e. the tafsir, and further commentaries on the tafsir). No matter how aware one is of the rules of interpretation, those rules didn't exactly emerge simultaneously with the thing interpreted, which leads me to think that, semiologically speaking, meanings may well have been lost and gained during the formulation of these rules. If I'm barking up the wrong tree, I'd be interested to know why..
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #19 - July 03, 2014, 12:47 PM

    Liberal. They have twisted interpretations of the Quran of their own which suits secularism.


    Yap we can take Quran and make  these types

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_q6nfq8lsY

    or we can make  this type from the same Quran..

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1mebNNtuF7c

    what a wonderful  Manual., And I wonder  what does real Quran contain and who is following the  real Quran..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #20 - July 03, 2014, 03:38 PM

    don't mind my male tendencies but I'm going to follow the SECOND Qur'an  grin12
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #21 - July 03, 2014, 06:08 PM

    No. However:

    I think the argument deserves a little more credit than it is given. As a native (Anatolian, western Oghuz) Turkish speaker I find it notoriously difficult to translate most Turkish into English. I'm not claiming that the apolegetic argument is correct (for it quite blatantly is not) but I'm sure that reading the qu'ran in its classical arabic will endow one with greater societal context. That of course does not make the book inerrant, divine, or perfect, in any shape or form.


    In one sense the argument is definitely correct ... if anything the Qur'an usually acquires artificial clarity and certainty through translation into other languages.

    Classical Arabic is, I think, a largely artificial linguistic construct designed to make sense of the Qur'an.  It's not the language of the Qur'an, but it is "closer" to the meaning of most terms than translation into other languages would be.

    There are very difficult and fascinating questions about how much the Qur'an reflects "real language" at all.  I believe anxiety over this issue is one of the reasons why oral recitation has been given so much importance in Islamic tradition:  It isn't remotely clear what 'language' the Qur'an as we have it represents.  I am reminded of the line in Ibn Mas'ud's codex that held that the Qur'an mushaf consists of different "dialects."

    Yet the various surahs and ayas are certainly not read in different dialects nowadays!  And the early Qur'anic orthography was far too limited to specify how it reflects dialect variation; plus our information on actual spoken Arabic of the time is remarkably minimal and late. 

    So (since I think Ibn Mas'ud's variant text was right) the Qur'an is essentially recited/read in an artificially uniform way that diverges from the complex linguistic content actually reflected in the text.  In this sense, the recitation is an artificial creation that reflects the conventions of much later Islamic tradition, and thus one should technically translate the recitation in Classical Arabic *differently* than the mushaf itself, the text of which is not written in any real-world language.

    How can one ever adequately translate this complexity into ANY language?  You can't, because it is a gestalt problem consisting of orthographic, dialectic, oral, and theological variations over centuries.  All one can do is take a certain narrow stopping point ... say the 1924 Cairo text ... and translate it according to a specific set of rules, while understanding that they are limited.  On top of that, you can attempt to analyze the meaning of specific verses, which requires not just broad linguistic and orthographic competence, but also historical context.

    As so often is the case, Muslim tradition itself recognized that exact point, and attempted just such a scholarly project in connection with specifying how to read the Qur'an, which is reflected in the great medieval works on Qur'anic exegesis and language (including canonizing the orthodox qiraat).  But they were limited in many respects, of which piety was just one.

    This is why I like to say that Muslims are actually right that you cannot meaningfully translate the Qur'an, but they are right for the wrong reasons:  we cannot (yet) translate the Qur'an effectively because the script is too defective, too much has been done to the text over too long of a period, and our knowledge about the actual linguistic context of its various components is far too limited.  Classical Arabic is itself already a kind of translation of the text, and translating Classical Arabic into English just worsens the problem.
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #22 - May 18, 2015, 12:41 PM

    Mehdi Hasan - Why Islam doesn’t need a reformation

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/17/islam-reformation-extremism-muslim-martin-luther-europe
    Quote
    ....
    The truth is that Islam has already had its own reformation of sorts, in the sense of a stripping of cultural accretions and a process of supposed “purification”. And it didn’t produce a tolerant, pluralistic, multifaith utopia, a Scandinavia-on-the-Euphrates. Instead, it produced … the kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

    Wasn’t reform exactly what was offered to the masses of the Hijaz by Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahhab, the mid-18th century itinerant preacher who allied with the House of Saud? He offered an austere Islam cleansed of what he believed to be innovations, which eschewed centuries of mainstream scholarship and commentary, and rejected the authority of the traditional ulema, or religious authorities.

    Some might argue that if anyone deserves the title of a Muslim Luther, it is Ibn Abdul Wahhab who, in the eyes of his critics, combined Luther’s puritanism with the German monk’s antipathy towards the Jews. Ibn Abdul Wahhab’s controversial stance on Muslim theology, writes his biographer Michael Crawford, “made him condemn much of the Islam of his own time” and led to him being dismissed as a heretic by his own family.
    ....


    Responses on Twitter:

    https://mobile.twitter.com/iandavidmorris/status/600251958419660800
    Quote from: Ian David Morris
    People struggling with @mehdirhasan's argument. He's right, in my view, but he could have communicated it better.


    https://mobile.twitter.com/MaajidNawaz/status/600242006632361984
    Quote from: Maajid Nawaz
    Terrible piece by Mehdi that confuses historical meaning of Reformation & *obvious* need for a Muslim reform discourse

  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #23 - May 18, 2015, 02:20 PM

    Zaotar

    "Consider, however, that the Bible and the Qur'an are largely incomprehensible and opaque, so they don't clearly specify principles of action or morality as applied to the modern world.  Shariah has notoriously little relation to the Qur'an (see Schacht et al) because it's almost impossible to extract determinate and consistent legal or ethical principles from the Qur'an --- apart from generally railing against the associators.  The hadith were largely created to solve that problem.

    The whole reason that hadith and its Christian equivalent -- Catholic doctrine -- emerged was because the holy text alone is almost useless as a guide to actual life, you need tradition to try to make sense of it.  That's generally a good thing, because it makes it easier for you to interpret the holy text more freely.

    After all, Biblical literalists are notoriously incompetent Biblical scholars."

    you nail it !!! actually if you stick to the Quran alone, you can literally come up with  new different religions
  • Islam's 'Protestant Reformation'
     Reply #24 - May 18, 2015, 02:47 PM

    Quote
    What a strange article. It's as if the author has grabbed like a drowning man at Martin Luther so as to be able to say in defence of his religion. ''Look, back in the 16th century Christianity was just as bad.'' We know that, but most of us live in the present and it's Islam that worries us now.

    I think it is himself that the author is really trying to convince. As an intelligent Muslim it must be disconcerting to prefer living amongst the kufir in a secular/Christian society to living in any country where Islam, which claims to provide the template for living the perfect life, holds sway.

    So, Mehdi take the first step away. Realise that you (like most people) probably acquired your religion in exactly the same way as you aquired your allegiance to your football team: inculcation at a young age, reinforced by the local culture and rituals. Your belief that yours is the one true religion has no greater validity than your belief that yours is ''the greatest team the world has ever seen''. Allegiance to both is just an accident of birth. And don't be put off by criticism from our home-grown radical rent-a-beards and their holier-than-thou pretensions. Remember that most of them manifest a surprising lack of interest in living in any of the Islamic theocracies available to them, and in fact would have to be dragged out kicking and screaming through the exit door of our infidel country.

    Sums it up.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
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