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 Topic: Stone left unturned

 (Read 2320 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Stone left unturned
     OP - July 14, 2016, 08:35 PM

    Ok, so lately because of all the recent attacks, my Muslim friends are posting shit Mohammad said that would be considered by our modern standards.

    Now I find myself almost being romanticized by some of those things, and at first I could comfort myself by thinking that maybe he was not completely evil.

    I noticed there is a shift between the makkah and madina surahs. So I thought Mohammad was acting like any person would letting power get to their head and turning into a dictator the stronger he got, but his last sermon tears this image of him apart because he talks about the importance of equality between races and Arab and non Arab.

    I guess what I am saying, is why does it seem like he becomes an arrogant power hungry person as he gets more influential and then ends his prophet hood talking about equality.
    This is really bothering me because it seems like I thought he was a deplorable person but then ends on a great note, WHY?Huh?

    This bothers me a lot because it makes me wonder if I left some stones unturned and what if Islam is true and I made a mistake?? What if I misunderstood Mohammad because this is not inline with my understanding of him being a selfish superior-feeling desert dweller.

    I need to know because I can not sleep or focus on anything else now, It is the same feeling I got when I thought Islam may be wrong while I was still a muslim

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #1 - July 14, 2016, 09:32 PM

    Hassan, I truly admire the candour in your posts. I too, am going through what seems to be a very long phase of being within a hair's bredth of officially leaving Islam, then this happens:

    Quote
    I need to know because I can not sleep or focus on anything else now


    And I 100% know what you mean here:

    Quote
    It is the same feeling I got when I thought Islam may be wrong while I was still a muslim


    But what keeps me from giving in to the lure of what may be the biggest deceit that mankind as managed to create, is that no matter the subject that is currently niggling away at my conscience, the answer -- whilst being a "perfect" one within Islam -- won't be a perfect answer from a rational, logical and certainly in your case, scientific perspective.

    As to your question, he knew he was on to something big way before that speach. Whatever his sources or inspirations truly were, they certainly taught him to be good with words and influencing people. I'm sure others will add more depth to this sentiment, but my answer is he wanted to be remembered as a force for good, not evil. He wanted to be remembered as a hero.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #2 - July 14, 2016, 09:42 PM

    Muhammad in Mecca was a decent and humble fellow. By many accounts he was a noble person.

    He grew his influence, and when he moved to Medina took power and became the absolute ruler of the first Islamic city. Like many a romantic leader, power got to him and he had to spill a lot of blood aspiring for his dreams. And like many a romantic leader, I think he believed in his dreams till the very end.

    His life trajectory is pretty common among revolutionary leaders.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #3 - July 14, 2016, 10:56 PM

    I believe a source of your issue is the paragon/idolization of Muhammad forcing you to go from one extreme to another. There is also a disconnect between politics and Islam in which what otherwise be seen as a political move is seen only in a religious light of Islam. Certain views points do not allow for mixing or influence from one to another outside a scope of choice.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #4 - July 15, 2016, 01:44 AM

    There are lots of theories on this. I think Yeezevee has mentioned that Muhammad seems to be more than one person, as if the name itself were a title instead.
    Some Muslims say he changed with the needs of the Ummah.
    The more you dig, the more you find, unfortunately. There has been plenty of time to speculate on this, so you will find probably as many theories as there are centuries spanning then to now.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #5 - July 15, 2016, 10:07 AM

    @afghan hassan,

    As jrg mentioned, you have an amazing mind, extremely scientific in perspective.  You should do your own independent research and communicate your findings in a dispassionate way, also on this forum, if that motivates you.

    All I know is I have quite aware of the great lengths many religiously minded or severely identity conscious people or with cultish tendencies go to stretch or bend facts to suit their case, islam and muslims are no exception; if anything, my opinion is the history of islam since the time of mo (circa 600 A.D.) shows total mastery in such deception.  In fact, supposedly *bigoted* sites such as www.wikiislam.net even has a sections on exaggerated claims and half-truths and lies by muslims; I personally don't know how reliable these are, however I would go "hmmm.." when I peruse them as I could relate to them, in terms of other things I have across, like highly questionable things expressed as if facts in a mainstream article as this one: http://www.cnn.com/2016/07/04/opinions/medina-attack-opinion-haroon-moghul/.

    Also, you may be aware other *bigoted* sites such as www,islam-watch.org have also recently picked up on the same vibes and one of the masters of my ilk (islamophobe and a bigot  Tongue) - Louis Palme - has reported on it: http://www.islam-watch.org/authors/139-louis-palme/1719-muhammads-final-sermon-the-fake-versus-real.html.

    It will be great if you can look into it independently, especially into the work by Faizi and al-Tabari, and figure out for yourself.

    Quote
    Muslims sincerely want and need to be following a prophet who models today’s most cherished humanitarian values -- universal equality, civil rights for women, and a faith for all peoples and all times. After all, Islam is now competing in a marketplace of ideologies, some of which actually ensure those values. Unfortunately, it is impossible to reach back into the well-documented history of Muhammad and find those values. So, instead, Muslims have re-written history. Be aware! When Muslims tell you that Muhammad espoused universal equality, equal rights for women, and a “perfected” religion, they may be quoting from a fake “Final Sermon” of Muhammad. Here it is:


    "O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and take these words to those who could not be present here today.

    O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every *Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners. Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds. God has forbidden you to take usury (interest), therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to Abbas ibn 'Abd'al Muttalib (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

    Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

    O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under God's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

    O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers (Salah), fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth in Zakat. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

    All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action. Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.
    Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

    O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my Sunnah and if you follow these you will never go astray.”

    All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

    This sermon was found in a collection of Muhammad’s sermons, “Sermons of the Prophet,” translated by S. H. Faizi in 2001.  Faizi acknowledges that the authenticity of the texts thereof is still doubted by ulema [Muslim scholars].

    Most likely, this is merely a compilation of different hadith attributed to Muhammad. The actual, more authentic “Farewell Sermon” is presented in Al Tabari’s “History,” Vol. IX, page 112. It is also contained virtually word-for-word in Ishaq’s “The Life of Muhammad,” page 651.

    Here are the major differences: 1) the authentic sermon prescribes wife-beating which is not mentioned in the fake sermon; 2) authentic sermon describes women “like domestic animals” whereas the fake sermon describes them as “partners and committed helpers;” 5) equality of mankind is not mentioned in the authentic sermon, but rather the brotherhood of Muslims only is described; 4) The Islamic Pillars of five daily prayers, fasting, zakat, and the hajj are not mentioned in the authentic sermon; 5) the edict that no prophet or new faith will follow Islam is not in the authentic sermon; 6) there is nothing in the authentic sermon about passing his words on to others who will understand better than those who heard Muhammad directly; and 7) the authentic sermon ordains the Islamic calendar which is 11 days short of a full year, but this is not mentioned in the fake sermon. (See Surah 9:37)

    Note also that even the language was not consistent with 7th Century terminology: 1) Negros were called “slaves (abd),” not “blacks”; 2) Arabs in the 7th Century did not use “white” to describe a race; 3) “committed” was never used in the Quran as an adjective.

    Clearly, this fake version of Muhammad’s final sermon was concocted to whitewash some of his primitive commands, to falsely promote modern humanitarian values, and to highlight Islam’s Five Pillars which were overlooked in the original Quran. Do not be fooled by Muhammad’s fake “Final Sermon.”

  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #6 - July 17, 2016, 04:56 AM

    What if I misunderstood Mohammad because this is not inline with my understanding of him being a selfish superior-feeling desert dweller.


    But he was.  That's the thing you have to remember.

    Just because someone cruel said something awesome at the end (and it's contested as to whether that last sermon was legit), doesn't make them any less cruel.

    Quote

    I need to know because I can not sleep or focus on anything else now, It is the same feeling I got when I thought Islam may be wrong while I was still a muslim


    Again, does him saying something nice at the end, change anything about whether Islam is actually from god?  whether it is even real?

    Even if we state he said 50% good and 50% bad, does the good negate the bad?

    For myself, that's a no. 

    The so called last sermon just reminds me of an abusive ex partner.  First they tell me they can beat me, and then they tell me that I still matter, that all of us are equal.  But he only says this when he is about to lose me, or in Mohammed's case, when he is coming to his death.

    Of course if you are really struggling, why not become an agnostic ex-Muslim like Hassan?  If you find yourself drawn to the good things, and believing that the bad stuff is just an aberration, and you really need to believe in something, then find a position in the middle which is more comfortable for you.  You don't have to disbelieve in all of it, just discard the things you disagree with.

    Other's have found comfort that way, and after all that's what Christian's and Jews have had to do.

    Personally I don't believe.  But I can understand why some need to, and don't look at it as some sort of bad position to take.

    Islam needs reformation, maybe become part of that reformation instead of rejecting it completely.

    I only suggest it because you seem to want to find the positives because you maybe want something deeper to believe in?  I could be wrong.   Smiley

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #7 - July 17, 2016, 06:24 AM

    Afgan, honestly Mo sounds a lot like abusive warlord... A person is not just 100% evil, even Hitler had a good side. Doesn't mean they're not abusive warlord though.

    Just follow a politician of your choice. Can you see a "straight line"? A politican's true goal is confusing and ever-changing. They can support one thing and support another next month. Sometimes they say some things they don't mean, some times they get money-hungry and try to work for their sponsor. Sometimes they get caught in an affair... which tarnishes their "great" family image.
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #8 - July 17, 2016, 10:37 AM

    The problem is about following someone to get to the ideals of equality etc.

    Sorry, we have to work it out together, co-operatively, for ourselves, with each other.

    Of course listen to what others have said, but we must decide on it.

    We are trapped in the existentialist now. We have to choose ourselves, not be led by someone, however allegedly perfect.

    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #9 - July 17, 2016, 10:41 AM

    Quote
    The original position is a central feature of John Rawls's social contract account of justice, “justice as fairness,” set forth in A Theory of Justice (TJ). It is designed to be a fair and impartial point of view that is to be adopted in our reasoning about fundamental principles of justice. In taking up this point of view, we are to imagine ourselves in the position of free and equal persons who jointly agree upon and commit themselves to principles of social and political justice. The main distinguishing feature of the original position is “the veil of ignorance”: to insure impartiality of judgment, the parties are deprived of all knowledge of their personal characteristics and social and historical circumstances. They do know of certain fundamental interests they all have, plus general facts about psychology, economics, biology, and other social and natural sciences. The parties in the original position are presented with a list of the main conceptions of justice drawn from the tradition of social and political philosophy, and are assigned the task of choosing from among these alternatives the conception of justice that best advances their interests in establishing conditions that enable them to effectively pursue their final ends and fundamental interests. Rawls contends that the most rational choice for the parties in the original position are two principles of justice: The first guarantees the equal basic rights and liberties needed to secure the fundamental interests of free and equal citizens and to pursue a wide range of conceptions of the good. The second principle provides fair equality of educational and employment opportunities enabling all to fairly compete for powers and positions of office; and it secures for all a guaranteed minimum of all-purpose means (including income and wealth) individuals need to pursue their interests and to maintain their self-respect as free and equal persons.


    When you are a Bear of Very Little Brain, and you Think of Things, you find sometimes that a Thing which seemed very Thingish inside you is quite different when it gets out into the open and has other people looking at it.


    A.A. Milne,

    "We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
  • Stone left unturned
     Reply #10 - July 18, 2016, 03:43 AM

    Thanks guys. I was having a moment where I got so occupied by trying to make sense of all of Mohammad's actions I completely forgot about some of his horrendous and idiotic teachings.

    I thought after these past months I had lost the last drops of indoctrination, guess I was wrong, that is why the fear of being scared the living hell out of me  Wink

    As a scientist I can see farther than any human before me by standing on the shoulders of giants (previous scientists); As a religious follower I can not see what is right in-front of me, even when others INDEPENDENTLY see the same thing!
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