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 Topic: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet

 (Read 6011 times)
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  • Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     OP - November 17, 2008, 08:06 AM

    Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet

    A Muslim scholar at a German university was told to stop teaching secondary-school instructors about Islam after he publicly voiced doubts about whether the Prophet Muhammad really existed.

    Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a professor of Islamic theology at the University of Münster, ran a program directed at secondary-school teachers with Muslim students, The Wall Street Journal reported this weekend. The university said it would look for another scholar to do that job when Mr. Kalisch’s doubts became public several months ago, after a series of interviews and publications. The university retains him as a professor.

    The controversy and headlines began swirling around Mr. Kalisch this past summer, as the news organization Spiegel Online reported in September. Mr. Kalisch, who converted to Islam as a teenager, said in newspaper interviews that he doubted that the historical existence of Muhammad could be proved or disproved, but he leaned towards the latter side. Among things that bothered him, according to the Journal: The first coins bearing an image of the prophet did not appear until decades after the religion did.

    Islamic groups in Germany initially embraced Mr. Kalisch’s teaching program, but then argued that a person who doubted the fundamental tenets of a religion was not the appropriate person to train other teachers about it. Mr. Kalisch says he will continue his research — and his skepticism — and the university will search for someone else to train teachers. Mr. Kalisch also says that, despite concerns for his safety, he has not received specific threats since publicizing his views.

    So this is an odd one. The guy in question claims to be Muslim, but he doesn't really believe Mohammed existed. How does that work? I wonder what his version of the shahada would be like?

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #1 - November 17, 2008, 09:13 AM

    Mr. Kalisch also says that, despite concerns for his safety, he has not received specific threats since publicizing his views.


    Well that's comforting.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #2 - November 17, 2008, 09:34 AM

    Interesting way it's worded though. It didn't say there were absolutely no concerns for his safety, and it certainly didn't seem to rule out that there might have been "non-specific threats". It seems to be saying that he's been copping some nasty shit on the quiet. Not all that surprising, really.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #3 - November 17, 2008, 10:39 AM

    Why not use their faith to bring up interesting debates during their lectures?

    If they are so strong in faith and believe what they believe is perfect, they should be confident enough to take on this lecturer.

    But it's all so easy to fire someone on the basis of their belief. It's all so easy just to get someone who is better at indoctrinating rather than stimulating diverse thought.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #4 - November 17, 2008, 10:50 AM

    Well any institution that proudly calls itself "submission" aint exactly going to be overjoyed about critical thinking.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #5 - November 19, 2008, 08:10 AM

    Quote
    MÜNSTER, Germany -- Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany's first professor of Islamic theology, fasts during the Muslim holy month, doesn't like to shake hands with Muslim women and has spent years studying Islamic scripture. Islam, he says, guides his life.

    So it came as something of a surprise when Prof. Kalisch announced the fruit of his theological research. His conclusion: The Prophet Muhammad probably never existed.



    Muslims, not surprisingly, are outraged. Even Danish cartoonists who triggered global protests a couple of years ago didn't portray the Prophet as fictional. German police, worried about a violent backlash, told the professor to move his religious-studies center to more-secure premises.

    "We had no idea he would have ideas like this," says Thomas Bauer, a fellow academic at Münster University who sat on a committee that appointed Prof. Kalisch. "I'm a more orthodox Muslim than he is, and I'm not a Muslim."

    When Prof. Kalisch took up his theology chair four years ago, he was seen as proof that modern Western scholarship and Islamic ways can mingle -- and counter the influence of radical preachers in Germany. He was put in charge of a new program at Münster, one of Germany's oldest and most respected universities, to train teachers in state schools to teach Muslim pupils about their faith.

    Muslim leaders cheered and joined an advisory board at his Center for Religious Studies. Politicians hailed the appointment as a sign of Germany's readiness to absorb some three million Muslims into mainstream society. But, says Andreas Pinkwart, a minister responsible for higher education in this north German region, "the results are disappointing."

    Prof. Kalisch, who insists he's still a Muslim, says he knew he would get in trouble but wanted to subject Islam to the same scrutiny as Christianity and Judaism. German scholars of the 19th century, he notes, were among the first to raise questions about the historical accuracy of the Bible.

    Many scholars of Islam question the accuracy of ancient sources on Muhammad's life. The earliest biography, of which no copies survive, dated from roughly a century after the generally accepted year of his death, 632, and is known only by references to it in much later texts. But only a few scholars have doubted Muhammad's existence. Most say his life is better documented than that of Jesus.


    "Of course Muhammad existed," says Tilman Nagel, a scholar in Göttingen and author of a new book, "Muhammad: Life and Legend." The Prophet differed from the flawless figure of Islamic tradition, Prof. Nagel says, but "it is quite astonishing to say that thousands and thousands of pages about him were all forged" and there was no such person.

    All the same, Prof. Nagel has signed a petition in support of Prof. Kalisch, who has faced blistering criticism from Muslim groups and some secular German academics. "We are in Europe," Prof. Nagel says. "Education is about thinking, not just learning by heart."

    Prof. Kalisch's religious studies center recently removed a sign and erased its address from its Web site. The professor, a burly 42-year-old, says he has received no specific threats but has been denounced as apostate, a capital offense in some readings of Islam.

    "Maybe people are speculating that some idiot will come and cut off my head," he said during an interview in his study.

    A few minutes later, an assistant arrived in a panic to say a suspicious-looking digital clock had been found lying in the hallway. Police, called to the scene, declared the clock harmless.

    A convert to Islam at age 15, Prof. Kalisch says he was drawn to the faith because it seemed more rational than others. He embraced a branch of Shiite Islam noted for its skeptical bent. After working briefly as a lawyer, he began work in 2001 on a postdoctoral thesis in Islamic law in Hamburg, to go through the elaborate process required to become a professor in Germany.

    The Sept. 11 attacks in the U.S. that year appalled Mr. Kalisch but didn't dent his devotion. Indeed, after he arrived at Münster University in 2004, he struck some as too conservative. Sami Alrabaa, a scholar at a nearby college, recalls attending a lecture by Prof. Kalisch and being upset by his doctrinaire defense of Islamic law, known as Sharia.

    In private, he was moving in a different direction. He devoured works questioning the existence of Abraham, Moses and Jesus. Then "I said to myself: You've dealt with Christianity and Judaism but what about your own religion? Can you take it for granted that Muhammad existed?"

    He had no doubts at first, but slowly they emerged. He was struck, he says, by the fact that the first coins bearing Muhammad's name did not appear until the late 7th century -- six decades after the religion did.

    He traded ideas with some scholars in Saarbrücken who in recent years have been pushing the idea of Muhammad's nonexistence. They claim that "Muhammad" wasn't the name of a person but a title, and that Islam began as a Christian heresy.

    Prof. Kalisch didn't buy all of this. Contributing last year to a book on Islam, he weighed the odds and called Muhammad's existence "more probable than not." By early this year, though, his thinking had shifted. "The more I read, the historical person at the root of the whole thing became more and more improbable," he says.

    He has doubts, too, about the Quran. "God doesn't write books," Prof. Kalisch says.

    Some of his students voiced alarm at the direction of his teaching. "I began to wonder if he would one day say he doesn't exist himself," says one. A few boycotted his lectures. Others sang his praises.

    Prof. Kalisch says he "never told students 'just believe what Kalisch thinks' " but seeks to teach them to think independently. Religions, he says, are "crutches" that help believers get to "the spiritual truth behind them." To him, what matters isn't whether Muhammad actually lived but the philosophy presented in his name.

    This summer, the dispute hit the headlines. A Turkish-language German newspaper reported on it with gusto. Media in the Muslim world picked up on it.

    Germany's Muslim Coordinating Council withdrew from the advisory board of Prof. Kalisch's center. Some Council members refused to address him by his adopted Muslim name, Muhammad, saying that he should now be known as Sven.

    German academics split. Michael Marx, a Quran scholar at the Berlin-Brandenburg Academy of Sciences, warned that Prof. Kalisch's views would discredit German scholarship and make it difficult for German scholars to work in Muslim lands. But Ursula Spuler-Stegemann, an Islamic studies scholar at the University of Marburg, set up a Web site called solidaritymuhammadkalisch.com and started an online petition of support.

    Alarmed that a pioneering effort at Muslim outreach was only stoking antagonism, Münster University decided to douse the flames. Prof. Kalisch was told he could keep his professorship but must stop teaching Islam to future school teachers.

    The professor says he's more determined than ever to keep probing his faith. He is finishing a book to explain his thoughts. It's in English instead of German because he wants to make a bigger impact. "I'm convinced that what I'm doing is necessary. There must be a free discussion of Islam," he says.


    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122669909279629451.html

    Don't know what to make of this.  How can he still be a muslim if he doesn't believe Muhammed existed?  Doesn't that nullify the second bit of the shahada?

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #6 - November 19, 2008, 08:22 AM

    That is curious. I don't dispute the existence of Muhammad... I'd like to see what proofs establish this for him.

    I don't think this is even a step forward in critical scholarship. More like a step to the side, like the proponents of the "Syriac/Aramaic origins" of the Qur'an.

    Maybe just a step forward for people to be open about doubt, even if it still ostracises them...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #7 - November 19, 2008, 05:45 PM

    The prophet abrogated a few verses in the koran.
    A follower abrogates the prophet.

     Cheesy Cheesy

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #8 - November 19, 2008, 05:47 PM

    The prophet abrogated a few verses in the koran.
    A follower abrogates the prophet.

     Cheesy Cheesy


     Cheesy Karma IS real.... Cheesy

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #9 - November 19, 2008, 05:50 PM

    yep  Cheesy Cheesy

    I was not blessed with the ability to have blind faith. I cant beleive something just because someone says its true.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #10 - November 19, 2008, 05:57 PM

    Quote
    Muhammad Sven Kalisch, a Muslim convert and Germany's first professor of Islamic theology, fasts during the Muslim holy month, doesn't like to shake hands with Muslim women and has spent years studying Islamic scripture. Islam, he says, guides his life.

    So it came as something of a surprise when Prof. Kalisch announced the fruit of his theological research. His conclusion: The Prophet Muhammad probably never existed.

    Funny, the only way he could come up to hang on to his faith was to conclude that muhammad never existed. It would be too painful for him to acknowledge muhammad's action and still remain 'in the faith'.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #11 - November 19, 2008, 06:54 PM

    That is curious. I don't dispute the existence of Muhammad... I'd like to see what proofs establish this for him.

    I don't think this is even a step forward in critical scholarship. More like a step to the side, like the proponents of the "Syriac/Aramaic origins" of the Qur'an.

    Maybe just a step forward for people to be open about doubt, even if it still ostracises them...


    By pretty much any working definition of the beliefs necessary to be a Muslim, from any sect, this guy just left Islaam. His scholarship is probably valuable and he's entitled to his beliefs, but I find it sad when people continue to call themselves Muslims when they are rejecting the tenets of Islaam. I read another article yesterday that he is also going to be doing work on the Quran and calling its legitimacy into question. That is fine as an academic, but it means he's not a Muslim anymore. Which is also find and dandy.   piggy

    This is why I really don't like to say secular Muslim or even agnostic/atheist Muslim, which is what some people were calling themselves in that American progressive Muslim movement.  By the very definition of the words Islaam and Muslim we have left, so why not embrace that and be proud of it?

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #12 - November 19, 2008, 06:55 PM


    Funny, the only way he could come up to hang on to his faith was to conclude that muhammad never existed. It would be too painful for him to acknowledge muhammad's action and still remain 'in the faith'.



    I just don't get how anyone can remain a muslim if they don't believe mohammed existed.  wacko

    Without mohammed there is no islam.


    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #13 - November 20, 2008, 08:00 AM


    Funny, the only way he could come up to hang on to his faith was to conclude that muhammad never existed. It would be too painful for him to acknowledge muhammad's action and still remain 'in the faith'.



    I just don't get how anyone can remain a muslim if they don't believe mohammed existed.  wacko

    Without mohammed there is no islam.




    Me neither.  But this guy has other heterodox views that I've read about, starting with his being a Zaydi.  I would not be surprised if he is an EX Muslim in a few years. Inshallah.   parrot  whistling2

    [this space for rent]
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #14 - November 20, 2008, 08:30 AM

    ***I just don't get how anyone can remain a muslim if they don't believe mohammed existed***

    It's an interesting point, though, BerberElla. Is a historical figure really necessary to underpin a religious/spiritual philosophy?

    There's much evidence to suggest, for instance, that Christianity might well pre-date the alleged birth of Jesus Christ. It could well even have been one of four original sects (along with Pharisee, Sadducee and Essene) of Judaism, itself founded much later than the authors of its scriptures would have us believe. Certainly, a whole library of very early Christian Gnostic writings, discovered mid-20th Century and contemporary with or older than the cannonic gospels, do not rely on a walkin' talkin' Christ as the foundation of their beliefs. And an earlier foundation would explain the otherwise 'miraculous' mushrooming of the religion in the first century CE.

    Important to remember that if a Jesus really ever existed (which I very much doubt), he was born, lived and died a Jew. He was never a Christian. An historical Mohammed, though, would, I guess, have been practicing Islam at least in his later years and so could be rightly described as a Muslim and founder of the faith. Even so, is his existence really that important to someone devoted to the teachings ascribed to him? (This last, by the way, a genuine enquiry - I honestly don't know).

    Very best. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #15 - November 20, 2008, 08:37 AM

    They have his friggin' body in Madinah...

    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: Muslim Scholar at German University Voices Doubts About Prophet
     Reply #16 - November 20, 2008, 08:42 AM

    ***They have his friggin' body in Madinah...***

    That would certainly give Islam one up on Christianity. Christ conveniently covered his tracks by ascending to heaven and leaving, literally, neither hide nor hair of himself as evidence that he ever existed. He also left not a jot or tittle in writing or (unless you swallow the Turin Shroud nonsense) so much as a snapshot. Neil

    We are not here to fight religion. We are here to make religion irrelevant. NM
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