Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →
↑ ↓
CEMB → Forum → Life, The Universe & Everything → Religions and Gods → QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts

الحبيب من يشبه اكثر؟؟؟
by akay
Yesterday at 10:20 AM
Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
June 13, 2025, 06:51 AM
Lights on the way
by akay
June 12, 2025, 09:49 AM
Do humans have needed kno...
June 11, 2025, 01:06 PM
What music are you listen...
by zeca
June 07, 2025, 08:56 PM
New Britain
June 06, 2025, 10:16 AM
Muslim grooming gangs sti...
June 02, 2025, 09:31 PM
ماذا يحدث هذه الايام؟؟؟.
by akay
June 02, 2025, 10:25 AM
What happens in these day...
June 02, 2025, 09:27 AM
What's happened to the fo...
June 01, 2025, 10:43 AM
Gaza assault
May 24, 2025, 11:55 AM
Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
May 17, 2025, 09:44 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE

 (Read 14857 times)
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #30 - November 08, 2008, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 10:12 AM


    So BerberElla, you accept that there are many Muslims and non-Muslims who do not have a precise understanding of the Arabic roots of the word SLM and choose the interpretation that suits their conscience? Don't you think then that it was a topic worth the ink and space to clarify? I wrote about it because as long as I have been on the web, I constantly get told that mostly by Muslims that, "Islam means Peace." I felt I had to write about it for clarification.


    Of course, I have seen many an article about the real meaning of the word, those authors felt a need to clarify the truth so of course you feel that need to.

    I just wanted to clear up that the majority of the time it is not lying, they really do believe that Islam means peace.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #31 - November 08, 2008, 03:00 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 08, 2008, 02:51 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 10:12 AM


    So BerberElla, you accept that there are many Muslims and non-Muslims who do not have a precise understanding of the Arabic roots of the word SLM and choose the interpretation that suits their conscience? Don't you think then that it was a topic worth the ink and space to clarify? I wrote about it because as long as I have been on the web, I constantly get told that mostly by Muslims that, "Islam means Peace." I felt I had to write about it for clarification.


    Of course, I have seen many an article about the real meaning of the word, those authors felt a need to clarify the truth so of course you feel that need to.

    I just wanted to clear up that the majority of the time it is not lying, they really do believe that Islam means peace.




    I fully accept your view on this.  At least we agree on one essential point. But I should be permitted to clear up this misconception even to point it out to Muslims? Is that haram?
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #32 - November 08, 2008, 03:05 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 03:00 PM


    I fully accept your view on this.  At least we agree on one essential point. But I should be permitted to clear up this misconception even to point it out to Muslims? Is that haram?


    You could point it out to muslims, I certainly have many times, but it never has any desired effect. the word means submission, muslims already accept that they are submittors, they are Allah's slaves, they know this.  They don't care and are happy to see themselves as slaves to allah.

    All you will be doing is clearing up a word misconception, which honestly will not achieve much.



    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #33 - November 08, 2008, 05:36 PM
    Are you saying that because some Muslims were taught or told that Islam means Peace, that they will continue to repeat this, and that they will refuse to accept any one telling them that the Arabic translation of the word Islam is "Submission" and not "Peace," and that this is  correct interpretation of Islam from the Arabic, that they will refuse to accept this  concept? This indicates that they do not have an "open view" on what they have just learned. And if this applies to the simple Islamic word, "Islam" then I can see that this same attitude will exist with such concepts as "Mohammed's abrogation's" and the concepts of "Greater Jihad" and "lesser Jihad" and all other such issues? Hence isn't it important to write about these concepts to clear the air?

    And in a way, this "closed view" is the strength of Islam, unconditional acceptance of the Word of Allah, no matter what has been told them by the Imams or how they perceive the Qur'an? No one can shake their beliefs/faith. It is also a weakness because new ideas cannot be introduced. This also illustrates how important that Imams are well informed about Islam and have a liberal mind instead of an extremist mind and have a good perspective of the doctrines of Islam. Imams should have much higher education of Islam before they are allowed to preach. Perhaps this is the Achilles Heel of Islam, the educational level of Imams.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #34 - November 08, 2008, 08:03 PM
     Huh? The point was that although Islam does mean submission and although many Muslims are not aware of this it isn't that big a deal. Sure, you can clarify it but it isn't going to make anyone who is devoutly Muslim change their mind about the truth of their religion. Really it's a trivial point.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #35 - November 08, 2008, 09:03 PM
    osmanthus, that is absolutely right except when Muslims insist in telling the non-Muslims that that is what Islam means. It could be misleading and confusing especially when in reality there are many incidences of Jihad being practised the world over? Especially when this is reported today:

    "Three Indonesian Islamic militants condemned to death for the 2002 Bali bombings which killed 202 people have been executed by firing squad.
    Imam Samudra, Amrozi Nurhasyim and Ali Ghufron (Mukhlas) were shot dead on the island prison of Nusakambangan at 0015 (1715 GMT Saturday), officials said.

    The bombings were blamed on the militant group Jemaah Islamiah, widely regarded as a regional affiliate of the al-Qaeda network.
    Since they were sentenced the bombers made several appeals for leniency.
    However, they also said they were keen to be "martyrs" for their dream of creating a South East Asian caliphate.
    A last-minute appeal by relatives of the bombers was rejected by a Supreme Court judge earlier this week."

    It does not seem to support the theme "That Islam means Peace."

  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #36 - November 08, 2008, 09:09 PM
    Obviously not. I don't think anyone, Muslim or otherwise, will be astonished to hear that the actions of militant Islamic groups do not help to advance the idea that "Islam means peace".

    By all means write a well-referenced article on the topic of the actual meaning of the word, just don't expect it to have any dramatic effect.
    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #37 - November 08, 2008, 09:20 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 07, 2008, 10:25 PM
    Baal, the main purpose of my article was intended for the Western Kafir who seem not to know about Islam. Regarding Islam means Peace, we have been told that that is what Islam means, where have you been?


    You are teaching to the converted. Everyone one this site knows that muslims claim that islam means peace. Everyone on this site knows that islam does not mean peace (even Tut, he is not an apostate btw and he engages in lying and deceit).

    The point we are trying to convery to you is that, the meme of "Islam means peace" is not a koran meme. It is an islamic meme. There is nothing in the koran that claims that islam is peace, quite the opposite. Also no arab knowing muslim will ever stand by the concept that islam means peace, but they *will* repeaet that to the dhimmis and the non-arab muslims.

    "Islam means peace" is *not* a koranic concept. It should not be your main argument when you discuss 'koranic ambiguities'. You will be just setting yourself to get eaten alive by critics.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #38 - November 09, 2008, 10:46 AM
    Quote from: osmanthus on November 08, 2008, 09:09 PM
    Obviously not. I don't think anyone, Muslim or otherwise, will be astonished to hear that the actions of militant Islamic groups do not help to advance the idea that "Islam means peace".

    By all means write a well-referenced article on the topic of the actual meaning of the word, just don't expect it to have any dramatic effect.


    The article was written to analyse, not to earn a "dramatic effect." It was aimed at those who have a superficial knowledge of Islam. It was written to counter the common MUSLIM proclamation that, "Islam means Peace." It was simply my research paper to discover the true meaning of the translation of the word "ISLAM." That is all it was. It was not intended for debate.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #39 - November 09, 2008, 10:53 AM
    Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 05:36 PM
    Are you saying that because some Muslims were taught or told that Islam means Peace, that they will continue to repeat this, and that they will refuse to accept any one telling them that the Arabic translation of the word Islam is "Submission" and not "Peace," and that this is  correct interpretation of Islam from the Arabic, that they will refuse to accept this  concept? This indicates that they do not have an "open view" on what they have just learned. And if this applies to the simple Islamic word, "Islam" then I can see that this same attitude will exist with such concepts as "Mohammed's abrogation's" and the concepts of "Greater Jihad" and "lesser Jihad" and all other such issues? Hence isn't it important to write about these concepts to clear the air?

    And in a way, this "closed view" is the strength of Islam, unconditional acceptance of the Word of Allah, no matter what has been told them by the Imams or how they perceive the Qur'an? No one can shake their beliefs/faith. It is also a weakness because new ideas cannot be introduced. This also illustrates how important that Imams are well informed about Islam and have a liberal mind instead of an extremist mind and have a good perspective of the doctrines of Islam. Imams should have much higher education of Islam before they are allowed to preach. Perhaps this is the Achilles Heel of Islam, the educational level of Imams.


    Not at all, they will simply accept the new information, and continue to be muslims, except they would say Islam means submission and they would still say it with pride.

    They DO have closed views, but this is such a minor issue.

    Some probably know that Islam the word means submission, but they say it means peace because they believe that Islam the way of life (not the word) is what actually means peace.  Which when the real debate begins.
    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #40 - November 09, 2008, 12:57 PM
    Quote from: BerberElla on November 09, 2008, 10:53 AM
    Quote from: elle on November 08, 2008, 05:36 PM
    Are you saying that because some Muslims were taught or told that Islam means Peace, that they will continue to repeat this, and that they will refuse to accept any one telling them that the Arabic translation of the word Islam is "Submission" and not "Peace," and that this is  correct interpretation of Islam from the Arabic, that they will refuse to accept this  concept? This indicates that they do not have an "open view" on what they have just learned. And if this applies to the simple Islamic word, "Islam" then I can see that this same attitude will exist with such concepts as "Mohammed's abrogation's" and the concepts of "Greater Jihad" and "lesser Jihad" and all other such issues? Hence isn't it important to write about these concepts to clear the air?

    And in a way, this "closed view" is the strength of Islam, unconditional acceptance of the Word of Allah, no matter what has been told them by the Imams or how they perceive the Qur'an? No one can shake their beliefs/faith. It is also a weakness because new ideas cannot be introduced. This also illustrates how important that Imams are well informed about Islam and have a liberal mind instead of an extremist mind and have a good perspective of the doctrines of Islam. Imams should have much higher education of Islam before they are allowed to preach. Perhaps this is the Achilles Heel of Islam, the educational level of Imams.


    Not at all, they will simply accept the new information, and continue to be muslims, except they would say Islam means submission and they would still say it with pride.

    They DO have closed views, but this is such a minor issue.

    Some probably know that Islam the word means submission, but they say it means peace because they believe that Islam the way of life (not the word) is what actually means peace.  Which when the real debate begins.


    This:  "Some probably know that Islam the word means submission, but they say it means peace because they believe that Islam the way of life (not the word) is what actually means peace.  Which when the real debate begins. "

    leads to confusion and misconceptions. It is a point I attempt to clarify. It may be obviously clear to Muslims or ex-Muslims, but certainly not clear to non-Muslims, i.e. Christians etc.
    I know what you mean and you know what I mean, but there are many out there who do not. I am not attempting to preach to the choir, but to the innocent. [Time I went and spent some time on my revision.]
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #41 - November 09, 2008, 07:15 PM
    To All members here, please accept my apologies for my insensitivities with my first submission of my script of "Qur'anic Ambiguities Analysed." I was of course rather embarrassed, when I reread it, at how crude and insensitive I was. I have edited it and hope that you, who may wish to read it again, may find it a better version. I am always open to further criticisms.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #42 - December 09, 2008, 02:28 PM
    Quote from: sojournerlumus on November 06, 2008, 06:58 PM
    Quote from: awais.x on November 06, 2008, 06:42 PM
    I'm so sick of this picture.

    First time I've seen it. Reminds me of a big prison camp.


    Looks to me as if you have just been released.  Cheesy

    BMZ
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #43 - December 09, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Quote from: elle on November 09, 2008, 07:15 PM
    To All members here, please accept my apologies for my insensitivities with my first submission of my script of "Qur'anic Ambiguities Analysed." I was of course rather embarrassed, when I reread it, at how crude and insensitive I was. I have edited it and hope that you, who may wish to read it again, may find it a better version. I am always open to further criticisms.


    Thanks for realising you were crude and insensitive. Your sins are forgiven.

    BMZ
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #44 - December 09, 2008, 03:41 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on December 09, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Your sins are forgiven.

     I do not forgive his sins, I demand retribution!  finmad
    I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #45 - December 09, 2008, 03:43 PM
    Let his Karma take over Awais  Roll Eyes
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #46 - December 09, 2008, 04:03 PM
    Quote from: awais on December 09, 2008, 03:41 PM
    Quote from: BMZ on December 09, 2008, 02:30 PM
    Your sins are forgiven.

     I do not forgive his sins, I demand retribution!  finmad


    If he comes here again, I will make him pay for his sins.  Smiley

    Good Night
    BMZ
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #47 - December 09, 2008, 09:07 PM
    I did not know that according to the Shariah

    i) Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
    ii) Laughing too much is forbidden;
    iii) Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;

    Can you confirm your source for this?  If this is true, then why isn't the Shariah always quoted as another example of absurdness & insensitivity in Islam
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #48 - December 10, 2008, 03:59 AM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 09, 2008, 09:07 PM
    I did not know that according to the Shariah

    i) Sodomites and Lesbians must be killed;
    ii) Laughing too much is forbidden;
    iii) Female circumcision, which includes the excision of the clitoris, is obligatory;

    Can you confirm your source for this?  If this is true, then why isn't the Shariah always quoted as another example of absurdness & insensitivity in Islam

    The Sharia is absurd and highly insensitive. There is not a single law that is objectively better then any of our secular laws in ALL non-muslim countries. But I did not notice the above Three points in the Sharia.

    the First point is implicitly in the Sharia. You will not find it, but if you apply the Sharia you might as well apply point One. This is how it goes: . Gays and lesbians will be eventually killed when caught multiple times (The Hudud - Punishment Limits will be increased every time). But they will not get killed because they are gay. They will get punished all the way to getting killed because they are not married (duh!) as they 'poof' each other as ahmad bahgat would say.

    Laughing too much is not explicitely in the sharia, just a 'makrouh - hated'. Mehammad hated it when people laughed at him. He also hated it when people yawned while he preached. So he made those Two acts a 'Makrouh'. So the acts are not in any current sharia that I know of, but if someone wanted to add them to the islamic sharia, they are allowed.

    Circumcision: Mehammad stated that the cut should not be too deep. In saying so, he alleviated the damage done by the generations before him, but institutionalized the act for the last 1400yrs. Again, I do not believe this circumcision made it to any sharia I know. But it did make it to the customs of muslims and even muslims who did not practice it in the past.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #49 - December 10, 2008, 09:04 AM
    Elle - if they dont in fact belong to the Sharia, then it is best left out of your article. When you quote items it is important that you are factually correct and quote your sources, otherwise you risk losing authenticity of the article as a whole.
    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: QUR'ANIC AMBIGUITIES ANALYZED BY ELLE
     Reply #50 - December 10, 2008, 10:28 PM
    Quote from: IsLame on December 10, 2008, 09:04 AM
    Elle - if they dont in fact belong to the Sharia, then it is best left out of your article. When you quote items it is important that you are factually correct and quote your sources, otherwise you risk losing authenticity of the article as a whole.

    Elle left the forum pretty quickly Islame. And i do not think Elle cared much about authenticity. His biggest worry was changing his article after it got spread to so many places and he got it cross-linked and copied to so many placed, and he was worried about his article losing its google ranking.

    Once he set his mind to protect the document at all price, he ended up on a collision course with us who saw the big holes in his points.
    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Previous page 1 2« Previous thread | Next thread »