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Theme Changer

 Topic: Liberal support for military intervention

 (Read 4700 times)
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  • Liberal support for military intervention
     OP - December 28, 2008, 03:58 AM

    I found this on Harry's Place. what do you think?

    Joan Smith argues that Obama should not listen to supporters who wish to stop US interventions abroad - with particular reference to the ongoing struggle in Afghanistan:

    Quote

    Despite the disaster in Iraq, it would be a huge moral defeat if Obama listened to them. Just because Bush, Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld got everything wrong when they responded to the 9/11 attacks doesn?t mean that the rest of us have to park our judgement and principles for a generation. Bush made a lot of noise about capturing Osama bin Laden dead or alive, left the Afghan war half-finished and veered off into Iraq after Saddam Hussein, a very unpleasant dictator who nevertheless had nothing to do with al-Qa?ida or the suicide bombings on the east coast of the US.

    In retrospect, the Bush administration?s actions were so ill conceived and capricious that it?s hard to believe they were allowed to discredit the doctrine of humanitarian intervention, yet that is what has happened. Obama has already faced calls to make a deal with the Taliban ? supposedly a nicer version than before, a sort of Taliban lite ? and pull out of Afghanistan.

    If he is going to win that war, he will need the support of liberals in the US and the UK who can see beyond the carnage in Baghdad to a set of principles which, Bush or no Bush, remain important to uphold.

    The central proposition is that democratic nations should not simply stand by as oppressive regimes wreck whole countries and cause the deaths of thousands of civilians.
        [?]
    leaving Afghanistan now would be an abject surrender to extremists: only last month, 15 schoolgirls and their teachers were injured in an acid attack, the latest in a relentless series of attacks on girls? schools and teachers.


    Will liberals lend their support?

    Quote
    It is vitally important for the future of progressive politics that people of democratic outlook should now speak clearly against those for whom the entire progressive agenda has been subordinated to a blanket and simplistic ?anti-imperialism?. The values and goals which properly make up that agenda - the values of democracy, human rights, solidarity with peoples fighting against poverty, tyranny and oppression - are what most enduringly define the shape of any left worth belonging to.



    Here is the original article.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/joan-smith/joan-smith-women-need-us-to-wage-war-on-ignorance-1213671.html
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #1 - December 28, 2008, 07:29 AM

    Sounds OK to me.

    I have no doubt military intervention both current and new will exist under Obama.
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #2 - December 28, 2008, 08:33 AM

    Yes I hope so, we must defeat the Taliban.

    The problem is we have become so mired in cultural relativism and self hate it's going to be tough to find the public support to see this through.

    Recently Martin Amis did a lecture and he asked the audience to raise their hands if they felt morally superior to the Taliban and only a handful could bring themselves to do it.

    It's degenerate if good liberal minded people can't bring themselves to say they are morally superior to the taliban.

    It has become a taboo to assert your superiority over anything especially if you are asserting superiority over a foreign culture or people. We have become so apologetic about the crimes of empire and slavery that to stand up to anything other than Western governments feels like a crime in itself.

    We must be the only culture in history to bring up a whole generation to think of their history as criminal and do it so successfully that we can't even condemn the murderers of school girls without feeling like we are acting like some kind of imperialist racists.

    Yes the British Empire was a bad thing and it's good that we can admit that but this kind of self flagellation has gone to far.

    I can't think of any other culture which has managed to hate itself for it's military success like ours. Most cultures they take pride in their imperial history we have evolved beyond that but in the procces we seem to have lost our spines.

    It's all very worrying.   
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #3 - December 28, 2008, 12:46 PM

    Quote
    Recently Martin Amis did a lecture and he asked the audience to raise their hands if they felt morally superior to the Taliban and only a handful could bring themselves to do it.


     wacko That's pretty screwed up actually.  I would have raised my hand in a heartbeat.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #4 - December 28, 2008, 04:52 PM

    You would be so surprised at how many people find it impossible to criticise anyone who is not from the West. I have lost count of the ammount of times that friends or family have reacted badly to my criticisms of the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas etc

    It's like in our attempt to atone for our racist, imperial past we have put anyone with a darker complexion than ourselves beyond criticism.

    Striving to snuff out racism wherever it rears it's ugly head is an honourable thing but being spineless and carrying out witch hunts against those unpolitically correct souls who do criticise is degenerate.

    By the way Berbs your avatars get saucier and saucier, Jihadi/Tut must be going bonkers dreaming about infidel women in fetish clothes whipping his arse  dance
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #5 - December 28, 2008, 05:03 PM

    You would be so surprised at how many people find it impossible to criticise anyone who is not from the West. I have lost count of the ammount of times that friends or family have reacted badly to my criticisms of the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas etc

    It's like in our attempt to atone for our racist, imperial past we have put anyone with a darker complexion than ourselves beyond criticism.

    Striving to snuff out racism wherever it rears it's ugly head is an honourable thing but being spineless and carrying out witch hunts against those unpolitically correct souls who do criticise is degenerate.


    I think being an ex muslim I get away with the criticism easier, it's harder for a hippy to dismiss me as a racist, since some very staunch hippy types have left the conversation wondering if they have been wrong/lied to all along.

    It's a shame really, because I don't believe it is racist to say one is better than the taliban, or that Islam sucks, or that jihadi wannabes are scum. 

    Quote

    By the way Berbs your avatars get saucier and saucier, Jihadi/Tut must be going bonkers dreaming about infidel women in fetish clothes whipping his arse  dance


    Haha this one is no where near as saucy as some of the other ones I have used, I think I'm known for them now.  Cheesy  and yes, Tut only wishes I would spank his ass, but I only spank special people.  bunny

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #6 - December 28, 2008, 06:41 PM

    As I've said already, it's not over yet. If the Pakistani state cannot defeat fundamentalism in the N W territoies, the Yanks will go in and do it. That's my prediction for 2009-10.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #7 - December 29, 2008, 12:20 AM

    If Obama concentrates some forces in Afghanistan it would still be against Bush's decision. Bush only attacked Afghanistan for couple month before weeting the hell out to run to Iraq.

    Sending forces to Afghanistan should be a politically safe decision for bomba.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #8 - December 29, 2008, 02:06 AM

    I think it will have more support amongst Americans than it does amongst Europeans and Brits.

    Americans still believe in themselves as essentially good.

    Over in Europe and the UK we have a sort of civilisation fatigue whereby we don't think we are good at all.

    We think our military is brutal and unethical, our freedoms a sham, our leaders puppets for the corporations and any desire to bring human rights to foreign lands as an act of imperialism.

    As I said before the Left leaning nature of our education system has mean't we have bought up a whole generation to think of the West from Hitler to the Anglo Americans as the bad guys.

    From empire to slavery to gas chambers the West is the root of all evil and for that we must hang our heads in shame. Add to that the lesson learned from two world wars is that "War is never the answer"

    So we feel like we carry the burden of all of histories crimes plus we have a pacifist urge which renders us defenseless.

    Imagine that! The war against Hitler didn't teach us that we should stand up to tyranny it taught most of us we should roll over and submit like a good dog. 

    In other words apart from a handful of old Tories we are a bunch of self hating conspiracy nuts who's only interest is criticising chavs, the BNP and centre Left/right politicians. The Taliban just don't register on the radar except as a legitimate rebellian against Western imperialism.

    I know I paint a bleak picture, I know not everyone thinks like that but it is a very large constituency that thinks that Western civilisation is rotten to the core, liberal democracy a failed experiment and the barbarians who fight us as worthy victors.

    In this light I have to say we could learn something from Americas belief in itself.
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #9 - December 29, 2008, 04:29 PM

    Bruce, in your line of work, you might have run into this interview. What are your thoughts about it?

    PS: The civilization tiredness you speak of, he refers to it IMO more accurately as 'demoralization'.

    Former KGB Agent Explains the Brainwashing of America 1980's
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJ2fMeer5Mw

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #10 - January 02, 2009, 07:01 PM

    You would be so surprised at how many people find it impossible to criticise anyone who is not from the West. I have lost count of the ammount of times that friends or family have reacted badly to my criticisms of the Taliban, Hezbollah, Hamas etc

    It's like in our attempt to atone for our racist, imperial past we have put anyone with a darker complexion than ourselves beyond criticism.

    Striving to snuff out racism wherever it rears it's ugly head is an honourable thing but being spineless and carrying out witch hunts against those unpolitically correct souls who do criticise is degenerate.


    I think being an ex muslim I get away with the criticism easier, it's harder for a hippy to dismiss me as a racist, since some very staunch hippy types have left the conversation wondering if they have been wrong/lied to all along.

    It's a shame really, because I don't believe it is racist to say one is better than the taliban, or that Islam sucks, or that jihadi wannabes are scum. 

     

    How can making simple statements of FACT be construed as racist?  To me, anybody who thinks that has a few chips plugged in backwards.

    Quote
    Quote
    By the way Berbs your avatars get saucier and saucier, Jihadi/Tut must be going bonkers dreaming about infidel women in fetish clothes whipping his arse  dance


    Haha this one is no where near as saucy as some of the other ones I have used, I think I'm known for them now.  Cheesy  and yes, Tut only wishes I would spank his ass, but I only spank special people.  bunny

     I think Tutsie's fantasies go in directions you really do not want to contemplate Smiley

    To the brainiacs who write the code for this site:  Is it possible to have a "find matching quote" function?
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #11 - January 02, 2009, 07:22 PM

    <Bump>

    Bruce, was curious on your opinion of this video?

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #12 - January 03, 2009, 10:28 AM

    To the brainiacs who write the code for this site:  Is it possible to have a "find matching quote" function?

    Use the search function.

    Devious, treacherous, murderous, neanderthal, sub-human of the West. bunny
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #13 - January 03, 2009, 01:46 PM

    <Bump>

    Bruce, was curious on your opinion of this video?


    Hello Baal, which video? The KGB thing?

    I think he is right but only as far as certain higher education institutions go.

    There was definitely a lot of communists in the pay of the Soviet Union working in British and American universities and those institutions still lean towards the hard Left but to be honest I think the majority of people who poo poo the West at every opportunity and promote alternative political systems are doing it because they genuinley believe the simplistic Star Wars/Empire rebels world view I highlighted earlier.

    I know some very sweet people who buy into that bogus world view who have never been indoctrinated by Soviet agents or joined a communist party.

    It just comes from our human tendency to be jealous of the rich and powerful demonise those in power and attack the regimes and ideologies whos followers are least likely to kill us.

    Better criticise Blair, Bush, Ariel Sharon/Darth Vader and be congratulated than criticise Muhammad, Hassan Nassralla or Saddam Hussein and get tortured or decapitated by Obi Wan Kenobi and the rebel forces.

    PS: What do you think my line of work is Baal? 
  • Re: Liberal support for military intervention
     Reply #14 - January 03, 2009, 02:00 PM



    Better criticise Blair, Bush, Ariel Sharon/Darth Vader and be congratulated than criticise Muhammad, Hassan Nassralla or Saddam Hussein and get tortured or decapitated by Obi Wan Kenobi and the rebel forces.

    PS: What do you think my line of work is Baal? 


    Sci fi writer?  Tongue

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
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