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Theme Changer

 Topic: Engaging Hamas

 (Read 3548 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • Engaging Hamas
     OP - January 17, 2009, 12:18 AM

    Jeffrey Goldberg in the NYT:

    As the Gaza war moves to a cease-fire, a crucial question will inevitably arise, as it has before: Should Israel (and by extension, the United States) try to engage Hamas in a substantive and sustained manner?

    It is a fair question, one worth debating, but it is unmoored from certain political and theological realities. One irresistible reality grows from Hamas?s complicated, competitive relationship with Hezbollah. For Hamas, Hezbollah is not only a source of weapons and instruction, it is a mentor and role model.

    Hamas?s desire to best Hezbollah?s achievements is natural, of course, but, more to the point, it is radicalizing. One of the reasons, among many, that Hamas felt compelled to break its cease-fire with Israel last month was to prove its potency to Muslims impressed with Hezbollah.

    Another reality worth considering concerns theology. Hamas and Hezbollah emerged from very different streams of Islam: Hamas is the Palestinian branch of the Sunni Muslim Brotherhood; Hezbollah is an outright Iranian proxy that takes its inspiration from the radical Shiite politics of Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. But the groups share a common belief that Jews are a cosmological evil, enemies of Islam since Muhammad sought refuge in Medina.

    Periodically, advocates of negotiation suggest that the hostility toward Jews expressed by Hamas is somehow mutable. But in years of listening, I haven?t heard much to suggest that its anti-Semitism is insincere. Like Hezbollah, Hamas believes that God is opposed to a Jewish state in Palestine. Both groups are rhetorically pitiless, though, again, Hamas sometimes appears to follow the lead of Hezbollah.

    I once asked Abdel Aziz Rantisi [former Hamas leader] where he learned what he called ?the truth? of the Holocaust ? that it didn?t happen ? and he referred me to books published by Hezbollah. Hamas and Hezbollah also share the view that the solution for Palestine lies in Europe. A spokesman for Hezbollah, Hassan Izzedine, once told me that the Jews who survive the Muslim ?liberation? of Palestine ?can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.? He went on to argue that the Jews are a ?curse to anyone who lives near them.?

    Nizar Rayyan [a member of the Hamas ruling elite] expressed much the same sentiment the night we spoke in 2006. We had been discussing a passage of the Koran that suggests that God turns a group of impious Jews into apes and pigs. The Hezbollah leader, Hassan Nasrallah, among others, has deployed this passage in his speeches. Once, at a rally in Beirut, he said: ?We shout in the face of the killers of prophets and the descendants of the apes and pigs: We hope we will not see you next year. The shout remains, ?Death to Israel!??

    Mr. Rayyan said that, technically, Mr. Nasrallah was mistaken. ?Allah changed disobedient Jews into apes and pigs, it is true, but he specifically said these apes and pigs did not have the ability to reproduce,? Mr. Rayyan said. ?So it is not literally true that Jews today are descended from pigs and apes, but it is true that some of the ancestors of Jews were transformed into pigs and apes, and it is true that Allah continually makes the Jews pay for their crimes in many different ways. They are a cursed people.?

    I asked him the question I always ask of Hamas leaders: Could you agree to anything more than a tactical cease-fire with Israel? I felt slightly ridiculous asking: A man who believes that God every now and again transforms Jews into pigs and apes might not be the most obvious candidate for peace talks at Camp David. Mr. Rayyan answered the question as I thought he would, saying that a long-term cease-fire would be unnecessary, because it will not take long for the forces of Islam to eradicate Israel.

    There is a fixed idea among some Israeli leaders that Hamas can be bombed into moderation. This is a false and dangerous notion. It is true that Hamas can be deterred militarily for a time, but tanks cannot defeat deeply felt belief.

    The reverse is also true: Hamas cannot be cajoled into moderation. Neither position credits Hamas with sincerity, or seriousness.

    The only small chance for peace today is the same chance that existed before the Gaza invasion: The moderate Arab states, Europe, the United States and, mainly, Israel, must help Hamas?s enemy, Fatah, prepare the West Bank for real freedom, and then hope that the people of Gaza, vast numbers of whom are unsympathetic to Hamas, see the West Bank as an alternative to the squalid vision of Hassan Nasrallah and Nizar Rayyan.
    [/i]
    [T]he Jews who survive the Muslim ?liberation? of Palestine ?can go back to Germany, or wherever they came from.? Since a high proportion of Israeli Jews came from, or are descended from those who came from, Arab and Islamic countries, does this mean that they'll be welcomed back in Egypt, Iraq, Morocco, Yemen? A rhetorical question, obviously....
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #1 - January 21, 2009, 04:51 PM

    Of course we can engage Hamas. They won legitimate elections. We engage with Israel and they were founded by terrorists.

    Sure their religious dogma is a little wacky but so is the Isreali Jews and they made a jewish state!

    And don't tell me Israel is secular. Does the right of return for all jews sound like a secular law?

    They encourage jewish fanatics to come and settle on Palestinian land. They sure don't look like they are working too hard for peace.

    Bcool2B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #2 - January 21, 2009, 08:09 PM

    Quote from: Submissive Bob
    And don't tell me Israel is secular. Does the right of return for all jews sound like a secular law?

    Why not? Yes, it reeks of nationalism, but what exactly is "religious" about it? Do you know how many other nation-states in our planet have similar laws?

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #3 - January 21, 2009, 08:20 PM

    I don't think it is nationalism. Norman Finkelstein (famous ant-Israel Jew) would have to be permitted into Israel because he is a jew, despite his stance against the state of Israel. It is religious discrimination.

    No I don't know of any other nation states that have similar laws.  Do you?

    BwackoB

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #4 - January 21, 2009, 08:33 PM

    I don't think it is nationalism.

    Quote from: Submissive Bob
    Norman Finkelstein (famous ant-Israel Jew) would have to be permitted into Israel because he is a jew, despite his stance against the state of Israel. It is religious discrimination.

    Nationalism doesn't exclude the rejection of dissidents.

    Israel does not discriminate between religious and atheist Jews, because Jewish identity covers religious and ethnic identity at the same time. Zionism was a secular movement to make the Jews "a nation among nations," which rejected the special relationship between God and Jews as described in normative Judaism. For this very reason, some religious Jewish fanatics still oppose the existence of Israel, because the Zionists created Israel through secular means, instead of waiting for God's miracles. If you think Zionism is a religious project, how do you explain the existence of kibbutzim for example, which are communistic and atheistic in all aspects?

    Quote from: Submissive Bob
    No I don't know of any other nation states that have similar laws.  Do you?

    You may check this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_of_return

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #5 - January 22, 2009, 08:44 AM

    Of course we can engage Hamas. They won legitimate elections. We engage with Israel and they were founded by terrorists.

    Just a clarification. I do not buy this thing about legitimate election. They pulled the same garbage they learned from their own big brother, the "egyptian islamic brotherhood". They used the power of the gun and rabid dogs to scare people into voting a certain way or not showing up at all to vote. And before the count was finished, they raided their opposition Fatah and threw the Fatah members and other minor oppositions from the roofs of buildings, put them on the wall and shot them as well as shot them in the knees for the purpose of crippling them.

    There is nothing legitimate about the hamas election win, no matter how sacred we take elections to be in the West, and no matter how loudly Hamas claim they won anything legitimate.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #6 - January 22, 2009, 02:14 PM

    [quote ]
    And before the count was finished, they raided their opposition Fatah and threw the Fatah members and other minor oppositions from the roofs of buildings, put them on the wall and shot them as well as shot them in the knees for the purpose of crippling them.

    [/quote]

    Actually,

    "The election was monitored by 900 foreign observers, including former President Jimmy Carter and the former Swedish prime minister, Carl Bildt. A preliminary assessment from an official in the United States delegation called the voting "generally smooth, with sporadic violence and a robust turnout," according to the New York Times."

    http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/hamas_01-26-06.html
    If it's good enough for peanut head it's good enough for me.

    The elections were in January of 2006, The Hamas coupe and tossings of fatah guys off buildings was June 2007, so I don't see how the latter could effect the former.

    http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/189265.php

    BHuh?B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #7 - January 22, 2009, 02:33 PM

    Quote
    No I don't know of any other nation states that have similar laws.  Do you?


    I know Germany has similar laws (for those of German descent). Japan too I believe.

    Malaysia has similar laws that allow (Muslim) Indonesians to naturalise and gain 'bumiputru' rights - barring Hindu and Christian Malays from the same rights. And I know the Arab states have laws that specifically prevent Palestinians from naturalising.



    Everytime "science" (which is falsely called so), "discovers" something new, evolutionists have to go back and change some parts of one of their theories. Amazingly enough, no scientific discovery has ever caused Biblical creationists to have to change their stand.
  • Re: Engaging Hamas
     Reply #8 - January 22, 2009, 05:21 PM

    There is a religious aspect to it (although kinda national too)

    Specifically excluded from the Law of Return are any "person who has been a Jew and has voluntarily changed his religion."

    Also converts are accepted.

    "According to the halakhic definition, a person is Jewish if their mother is Jewish, or if he or she converts to Judaism. Charedi citizens of Israel generally do not recognize conversions performed by Reform or Conservative Judaism. However, the Law provides that any Jew regardless of affiliation may migrate to Israel and claim citizenship."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_Return

    I can also see that it is somewhat racial, else why would there be a controvery over Ethiopian Jews?

    "The Israeli government, lacking a universally accepted definition of Jewishness, has long welcomed immigrants whose links to Judaism were questionable, many of them among the hundreds of thousands of people who came from the former Soviet Union in the early 1990s."

    It is a messed up law, especially for a country who doesn?t have enough land.

    BHuh?B

    My style is impetuous, my defense is impregnable and I'm just ferocious. I want your heart. I want to eat your children. Praise be to Allah." -- Mike Tyson
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