Shaitan

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Shaitan
OP - March 04, 2009, 10:21 PM

I know this is a really simple question, and I apologise for it in advance. But if Shaitan knew that God existed and he was all powerful and could do anything he wanted, why did he choose to disobey him? It doesn't make any sense!

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Re: Shaitan
Reply #1 - March 04, 2009, 10:50 PM

Maybe he was making a stand against a dictator and hoping others would follow suit? But then God twisted his story around and made him look like the bad guy.

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~Collection of unethical hadiths/surahs~
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Re: Shaitan
Reply #2 - March 04, 2009, 11:40 PM

Or perhaps Satan was a schizo who, every so often, turned into god and grew a big white beard whenever that happened?

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Re: Shaitan
Reply #3 - March 05, 2009, 12:11 AM

It was pride out of love. Iblees was so devoted to Allah, that Allah saw fit for him to enter his company with the Angels. Then Allah creates this creature out of mud, who has done nothing yet, and orders Iblees to bow down to it. Iblees is offended, hurt.

It could also be said that Shaytaan thought it was a test from Allah; it's normally prohibited to bow down to others besides Allah. Obey or disobey this contradictory command?

Allah has knowledge of the seen and the unseen right? Past, present, future; no leaf falls from a tree but that Allah knows about it. And he is the Knowing Creator of all right? Did he not create Iblees knowing he would have this deficiency, pride? Did he not know and ordain that Iblees would do this? As Iblees tells Allah,

Quote from: 7:16
Because You have sent me astray...

So Allah was not complicit in the allowance of evil, rather the Creator of it, who must sign and approve everything before it is done!

But, it's all part of the 'Divine Plan',

It should be noted that Iblees himself never worships others besides Allah (it can be argued he worshipped himself by 'disobeying' Allah). On the Day of Judgment, Iblees will disown the idolator he led astray from monotheism,

Quote from: 14:22
Verily, Allah promised you a promise of truth. And I too promised you, but I betrayed you. I had no authority over you except that I called you, and you responded to me. So blame me not, but blame yourselves. I cannot help you, nor can you help me. I deny your former act in associating me as a partner with Allah.

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Re: Shaitan
Reply #4 - March 05, 2009, 05:42 AM

Or vice-versa. Anyway, God would've needed variables to create a standard to show humans the difference between Good and Evil. How convenient that he scapegoated the Devil for that.

You should read Letters From The Earth by Mark Twain. He tells the story of religion not through the eyes of these God-worshipers, but through the eyes of the Devil. I mean, every story has two sides, right?

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Re: Shaitan
Reply #5 - March 05, 2009, 08:32 AM

Satan's a less wicked one than God! I know whom I prefer.
Quote from: awais on March 05, 2009, 12:11 AM

It should be noted that Iblees himself never worships others besides Allah (it can be argued he worshipped himself by 'disobeying' Allah). On the Day of Judgment, Iblees will disown the idolator he led astray from monotheism,

Iblees led too many idolaters astray before the news reached God's ears & He actually started telling people that He's jealous of people those puny idols!

All the ancient civilizations were idolaters, Hindus, Chinese folk religionists, African Animists, Shintos, Buddhists et al are still idolaters, in spite of the carnages Allah ordered His Prophet to cause to idolaters. And all these people had no concept of a Satan, that was an invention of Zoroastrianism, which reached Christianity, from where Mo plagiarized it & made some minor alterations in names & stories, in order to make it more palatable to his band of Saudi desert bandits.

I certainly know whom I prefer... an Iblees who incited people to idolatry OR an Allah, who orders the slaughter of idolaters-yet lets' His followers rape war booties & marry kids!

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Shaitan
Reply #6 - March 05, 2009, 09:04 AM

Quote from: aliadiere on March 04, 2009, 10:21 PM
I know this is a really simple question, and I apologise for it in advance. But if Shaitan knew that God existed and he was all powerful and could do anything he wanted, why did he choose to disobey him? It doesn't make any sense!

And how about that God who is too impotent and/or too sadistic to stop Shaitan/Ibliss/Satan/Evil and then blames *us*, and the "Free Will" he gave us, for his own incompetence?

It's not supposed to make sense... that's why they call it blind faith... religion is for the blind of mind.

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Re: Shaitan
Reply #7 - March 05, 2009, 09:21 AM

Quote from: Rashna on March 05, 2009, 08:32 AM
Satan's a less wicked one than God! I know whom I prefer.
Quote from: awais on March 05, 2009, 12:11 AM

It should be noted that Iblees himself never worships others besides Allah (it can be argued he worshipped himself by 'disobeying' Allah). On the Day of Judgment, Iblees will disown the idolator he led astray from monotheism,

Iblees led too many idolaters astray before the news reached God's ears & He actually started telling people that He's jealous of people those puny idols!

All the ancient civilizations were idolaters, Hindus, Chinese folk religionists, African Animists, Shintos, Buddhists et al are still idolaters, in spite of the carnages Allah ordered His Prophet to cause to idolaters. And all these people had no concept of a Satan, that was an invention of Zoroastrianism, which reached Christianity, from where Mo plagiarized it & made some minor alterations in names & stories, in order to make it more palatable to his band of Saudi desert bandits.

I certainly know whom I prefer... an Iblees who incited people to idolatry OR an Allah, who orders the slaughter of idolaters-yet lets' His followers rape war booties & marry kids!

Spoken like a True Believer, unwavering confidence that you're armed with 'The Truth'.

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
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Re: Shaitan
Reply #8 - March 05, 2009, 09:39 AM

Quote from: awais on March 05, 2009, 09:21 AM
Spoken like a True Believer, unwavering confidence that you're armed with 'The Truth'.

I am confident, & as long as I keep my opinions limited to words-whats' the harm in being confident?

I certainly don't impose my beliefs on others, or attempt to slaughter people who disagree, unlike a certain group of monotheists...

And yes, I am convinced of some stuff, eg I am absolutely convinced rape is wrong, I'm glad to be a true believer regarding this, I hope you believe this as well?

I'm also convinced that an Allah, if He's a good guy, should raise girls' age at marriage & stop his followers raping the enemies' women, before He expresses His jealousy in other Gods/esses & His wish for them to be immediately destroyed.

Unless of course, this Allah is the trickery &\or mental hallucination of the idle & immoral husband of a rich, old lady who barely understands certain monotheistic concepts he's come across & fancies himself as a Prophet in the continuing monotheistic saga & believes it his right & duty to slaughter those who disagree...

World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
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Re: Shaitan
Reply #9 - March 05, 2009, 05:20 PM

Satan wasn't an invention of Zoroastrianism. That was in its original incarnation pretty much monotheism. It's when the magian element crept into it that they set the evil up in direct and equal opposition to Ahura Mazds.

"At 8:47 I do a grenade jump off a ladder."
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