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Theme Changer

 Topic: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM

 (Read 6745 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     OP - March 11, 2009, 09:37 PM

    saffyold writes:

    1of us has misunderstood, lets talk and c if you can help me, and if im wrong, you wont be accounted for it.

    'men have authority over women'
    the word that u have translated as men(rajul) is ambiguous,it actually means the one that can stnd on their own 2feet,this could be men or women (their is a criteria).women are preferred over men if they fit that
    'Good women are obedient'
    this is obedience to God, NOT to man, as wifes can blatantly refuse their husbands in many cases.

    'As for those from whom you fear disobedience'
    their is a set criteria that goes down as disobedience,and if you study them, you will be amazed, that 1400 years ago these were womens rights, and even today men fail to fulfill them.
    'admonish them'
    wrongly translated, it means explain to them
    'beat them'
    WRONGLY TRANSLATED! the word is ambiguous,it means let them know that ur seriouse, not BEAT them!in islam domestic violence is prohibited,Muslims are prohibited to torture an animal,continued

    'Then if they obey you, ....'
    wifes are only obliged to listen to their husbands if it is within his rights, which will make it easy for him to worship God, now obviously, it is the right of a husband to have sexual relationship with his wife, but also for the women, and this will save the chance of one of them being unfaithful to one another.

    '....... take no further action against them'
    actions is not physical, but systematical, as in reconcilement and divorce.


    so there u have it, the Arabic language is very complex and can be misinterpreted very easily, the scholars of this science state it is impossible to translate Arabic to the full extent.
    please do not pick a Quran up and take the english translation as the meaning of the text.

    '' Only a demeaning man is demeaning to his women, and only an honorable man honors his women'
    Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), the Messenger of God.

    Muslims are taught to avoid striking the enemy in the face on a battle field as the face is the most honored part of the body, also a the arabic word for house is maskan, which means the place of tranquility, domestic violence voids the translation of that. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM. also in the quran the women is described the one whom you will gain love(in this verse the love is not erotic love) and mercy from.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #1 - March 11, 2009, 09:37 PM

    discussislam writes:

    Dear saffyold,

    I have started a thread about the points you raise on the forum called councilofexmuslims dot kom

    It is an open discussion forum and you can discuss with me and others about your points.

    Peace and Best wishes,

    Hassan.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #2 - March 11, 2009, 11:30 PM

    saffyold writes:

    1of us has misunderstood, lets talk and c if you can help me, and if im wrong, you wont be accounted for it.

    'men have authority over women'
    the word that u have translated as men(rajul) is ambiguous,it actually means the one that can stnd on their own 2feet,this could be men or women (their is a criteria).women are preferred over men if they fit that
    'Good women are obedient'
    this is obedience to God, NOT to man, as wifes can blatantly refuse their husbands in many cases.

    'As for those from whom you fear disobedience'
    their is a set criteria that goes down as disobedience,and if you study them, you will be amazed, that 1400 years ago these were womens rights, and even today men fail to fulfill them.
    'admonish them'
    wrongly translated, it means explain to them
    'beat them'
    WRONGLY TRANSLATED! the word is ambiguous,it means let them know that ur seriouse, not BEAT them!in islam domestic violence is prohibited,Muslims are prohibited to torture an animal,continued

    'Then if they obey you, ....'
    wifes are only obliged to listen to their husbands if it is within his rights, which will make it easy for him to worship God, now obviously, it is the right of a husband to have sexual relationship with his wife, but also for the women, and this will save the chance of one of them being unfaithful to one another.

    '....... take no further action against them'
    actions is not physical, but systematical, as in reconcilement and divorce.


    so there u have it, the Arabic language is very complex and can be misinterpreted very easily, the scholars of this science state it is impossible to translate Arabic to the full extent.
    please do not pick a Quran up and take the english translation as the meaning of the text.

    '' Only a demeaning man is demeaning to his women, and only an honorable man honors his women'
    Muhammad (Peace Be Upon Him), the Messenger of God.

    Muslims are taught to avoid striking the enemy in the face on a battle field as the face is the most honored part of the body, also a the arabic word for house is maskan, which means the place of tranquility, domestic violence voids the translation of that. DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM. also in the quran the women is described the one whom you will gain love(in this verse the love is not erotic love) and mercy from.


    Wow, its amazing how how some muslims go at such lengths to defend 4:34. Its pathetic, Saffyold is in clear denial. 4:34 says HIT THEM, but for some reason he can't seem to grasp it. Its amazing how the moderates try to twist and change the verse so it can fit their worldview.

    "The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never worshiped anything but himself."
    ~Sir Richard Francis Burton

    "I think religion is just like smoking: Both invented by people, addictive, harmful, and kills!"
    ~RIBS
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #3 - March 11, 2009, 11:54 PM

    i can understand your denial, as to be honest with you, there is a lack of muslims actually studying islam as it used to be traditionally, but what im saying is not a statement synthesized by moderation, but a teaching that is inspired by a person called ibn abbas. Ibn Abbas is a direct student of the prophet muhammed pbuh.

    for more information, please watch the video on you tube by sheikh hamza yusuf, on hidden domestic violence.

    thanks
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #4 - March 11, 2009, 11:57 PM

    Saffyold,

    Welcome.  Afro

    Islam: where idiots meet terrorists.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #5 - March 11, 2009, 11:59 PM

    i can understand your denial, as to be honest with you, there is a lack of muslims actually studying islam as it used to be traditionally, but what im saying is not a statement synthesized by moderation, but a teaching that is inspired by a person called ibn abbas. Ibn Abbas is a direct student of the prophet muhammed pbuh.

    for more information, please watch the video on you tube by sheikh hamza yusuf, on hidden domestic violence.

    thanks


    Hello Saffyold, and welcome to the forum.   Smiley

    Would you be able to post a link to the video you are referring to, please?  It sounds interesting, and I'm sure it add to our understanding of this debate. 

    Thanx in advance.

    "Befriend them not, Oh murtads, and give them neither parrot nor bunny."  - happymurtad's advice on trolls.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #6 - March 12, 2009, 12:40 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BDEKJDgXO-U

    thanks

  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #7 - March 12, 2009, 12:49 AM

    Welcome saffyold  Smiley


    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #8 - March 12, 2009, 12:51 AM

    If I may ask, saffyold;

    When you say the teachings of Ibn Abbas, you here also consider his tafsirs, and athaars said by him?


    I presume that you believe in Hadith too, cuz i see you quoting some.

    thx.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #9 - March 12, 2009, 01:15 AM


     yup. Islam is understood and laws are drafted by qualified scholars.

    the procedure is always

    Quran  ( the  revelation by god that man attempts to understand)

    Sunnah ( the speech. action or tacit approval of the Prophet Muhammed PBUH)

    Ijma ( when a certain situation arises that requires a democratic approach of intellectual theologians)

    Qiyas ( analogical reasoning by theologians)


  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #10 - March 12, 2009, 01:16 AM

    Thank you,

    I'll watch the video.. Smiley

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #11 - March 12, 2009, 02:20 AM

    Salam saffyold and welcome,

    I've watched the video and I want to make some short comments on what he says:

    Quote
    But the one thing that God does not allow is oppression. Oh my servant I have prohibited oppression upon myself. Out of his bounty, God can do whatever he pleases.

    That's complete nonsense in my opinion. Just think about the fact that people of the book have to live as dhimmis under a Muslim state. They have to pay the jizyah so as to feel humiliated for rejecting Islam, a religion perfected by Allah. And if I get a certain verse in surah 9 right, then Polytheists have to either convert or be killed (one might argue that it was specific to Mhmd's aera.) Isn't Islam supposed to encompass all aspects of the human life? Islam in the government means, no secularity, it means crippled freedom of speech and crippled freedom of conscience and religion, because we know that blasphemy is punishable in Islam, and it is a very flexible term.

    Of course, let's not forget about eternal Hell. Now, Muslims would say, it's just in the hereafter and you can't actually feel oppressed by it. That's not entirely true. Those who fully believe in the horrors of Hell, will behave and react very differently to certain situations. For example, when you tell your parents you're no longer a Muslim or you have doubts, they might pull out a broom stick and beat you up a bit (which actually happened to one of our members here), and they might wanna ship you to a country where good Islamic behaviour is taught.

    Quote
    Those Muslims. What's wrong with that religion? It teaches people to be violent. Even the Qur'an. Look at the Qur'an, it encourages domestic violence. And then they pull out the verse. First of all before you can even understand the Qur'an, you have to give 20 years of your life to study. 20 years of your life to study. I'm not making this up. You read the conditions of tafseer. There are twelve knowledges that you have to master before you can comment on the Qur'an. That's the first thing.

    I think that pretty much kills the Qur'an's claim of being a clear, detailed and easy to understand book. Here are the references: 5:15,16; 44:58; 54:22,32,40; 6:114; 10:15; 2:2.
    How one can call the Qur'an the "Kitab Mubin" (The Clear Book) is absolutely beyond me. Why wasn't God able to reveal a book that actually isn't ambiguous and confusing, doesn't leave out important details and doesn't require libraries of tafaseer and ahadith and years of studying them, before you can claim that you have understood God's vital message? What about the average believer? Does God only want an elite to hold the power and authority over deciding which exegesis is the correct one? Doesn't that create a lot of problems in Islamic countries?

    And regarding 4:34, why didn't God just outright ban violence against women? Instead he chose to include a highly controversial verse that can be understood to allow chastisement as a last resort.

    I mean, look at 98:6.
    "Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures."

    Allah can clearly and easily condemn whole groups to be lesser humans - for mere unbelief, but he couldn't say, for example:
    98:6: Those who use any kind of violence, be it physical or psychological, against their wives and their children, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.

    See? That would have convinced anybody that Islam abhorrs domestic violence.

    Quote
    The Prophet never struck a woman, a child or a servant ever. You have in the messenger of Allah the best example.


    What about the hadith where Mhmd strikes Aisha in the chest. Let me see, which hadith it was. Oh, I remember that "Salafi Burnout" posted it once: Sahih Muslim #2127.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #12 - March 12, 2009, 02:30 AM

    A friend of mine who's a devout Muslim and native Arabic speaker translated it as 'strike'.... explicitly stating that it didn't mean 'tap' or 'talk sternly to' or anything else.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #13 - March 12, 2009, 07:34 AM

    Salams Saffyold - I'm glad you were able to pop in Smiley

    You said:

    Quote
    'beat them'
    WRONGLY TRANSLATED! the word is ambiguous,it means let them know that ur seriouse, not BEAT them!in islam domestic violence is prohibited,Muslims are prohibited to torture an animal,continued
    ... DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM.


    May I ask if you yourself understand Arabic?

    Daraba means "To Hit". I personally don't usually translate it as "Beat Them" (though this is an acceptable translation) - but I usually translate it as:

     "Hit Them!"

    That is the most straightforward translation.

    I agree that Islam places limits and restrictions on the hitting.

    And one cannot hit one's wife for any reason, but only for specific reasons and after other steps have been taken and failed.

    But it does allow a man to hit his wife.

    Do you deny this?
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #14 - March 12, 2009, 10:00 AM

    Liberal scholars are so full of crap it's unbelievable. That man should study the hadiths where domestic violence is rampant.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #15 - March 12, 2009, 10:05 AM

    Watched the video,

    I'll wait for you saffyold to reply to the above, after that I'll give my comments.

    "I'm Agnostic about God."

    Richard Dawkins
    ==
    "If there is a God, it has to be a man; no woman could or would ever fuck things up like this."
     George Carlin == "...The so-called moderates are actually the public relations arm of Al-Qaeda and the Islamic Republic of Iran."  Maryam Namazie
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #16 - March 12, 2009, 02:26 PM

    Liberal scholars are so full of crap it's unbelievable. That man should study the hadiths where domestic violence is rampant.


    I have a feeling saffyold is a she (Safiyya or Safa maybe?)
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #17 - March 12, 2009, 02:35 PM

    Liberal scholars are so full of crap it's unbelievable. That man should study the hadiths where domestic violence is rampant.


    I have a feeling saffyold is a she (Safiyya or Safa maybe?)

    I was referring to the scholar.
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #18 - March 13, 2009, 12:51 AM


    subhanalla

    i must say that i am very impressed with the response to my statements, anyway, insha allah (if god wills), i will analyze, consider and reply to every single comment that has been made. i  have very little spare time on my hands as i work full time , study and teach, so u can understand.

    but as i said, insha allah i will reply to all statements, as i only want to state solid evidences and nothing whispered by anyone else.

    but mean while, keep your comments coming, as my job is only to inform and educate, i am not here proselytize or convert/revert anyone, but only to speak the truth.

    but i will say
    '' if you sincerely believe in god, then you will find your life will be  full of god, and if you dont believe in god, then you will find your life will be godless. thats why an atheist cannot understand the beliefs of a believer, and a believer cannot understand an atheist, because they both see their proofs in their life's''

    which reminds me of the hadith

    that god says '' i am in the opinion of my servent'' so if you think god is with you, then He is with you, and if you think he's nothing, well then that's what you find...........nothing.

    May God guide our hearts, may he make us sincere in our thoughts, intentions and actions, may He give us the ear of consideration and save us from hastiness. may he make me accept the truth and recognize whats false. amen

    '' i bear witness that there is no one worthy of worship, accept the true god, and that Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, is his final messenger.''


    thnks
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #19 - March 13, 2009, 02:57 AM

    i must say that i am very impressed with the response to my statements, anyway, insha allah (if god wills), i will analyze, consider and reply to every single comment that has been made. i  have very little spare time on my hands as i work full time , study and teach, so u can understand.

    That's okay man. Take your time, nobody is in a hurry here. Smiley
    but as i said, insha allah i will reply to all statements, as i only want to state solid evidences and nothing whispered by anyone else.

    but mean while, keep your comments coming, as my job is only to inform and educate, i am not here proselytize or convert/revert anyone, but only to speak the truth.

    Sounds great.
    but i will say
    '' if you sincerely believe in god, then you will find your life will be  full of god, and if you dont believe in god, then you will find your life will be godless. thats why an atheist cannot understand the beliefs of a believer, and a believer cannot understand an atheist, because they both see their proofs in their life's''

    I don't agree with that at all. I can assure you that I wholeheartedly believed in Islam, despite some issues in it that were bothering me once in a while. I can certainly understand what it's like to be a believer. When I started doing the ritual prayers, I had this wonderful experience of peace and happiness, it was more like ecstasy. I've never done any drugs to this date, but I think I was a little bit high, high on God I guess Smiley. I would just sit there and enjoy the feeling of being touched and tingled by the Allmighty. That happened only a few times at the beginning, and with each prayer it felt more like a routine rather than something you do out of joy.

    which reminds me of the hadith

    that god says '' i am in the opinion of my servent'' so if you think god is with you, then He is with you, and if you think he's nothing, well then that's what you find...........nothing.

    No, even if you think God is there, you will sometimes be faced with a whole lot of nothing. Nothing to pay your mortgages with, nothing to help you with anxieties, nothing to help you with health problems, nothing to help you with the struggle to feed your family, nothing to get a rapist or murderer convicted. To me it looks like everybody is faced with this nothing on different levels in their lives, but only believers will call it something else, they will say it's a test from God to see if you remain faithful and thankful. That thought might help some believers to cope better with things, but I feel much better as an atheist, since I don't have to ask why a merciful god would let happen this or that all the time. It actually doesn't make any difference if people are devout or not, bad stuff still happens, and the only thing that really has helped humanity to fight e.g. crime, hunger and diseases has been science and technology.

    German ex-Muslim forumMy YouTubeList of Ex-Muslims
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  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #20 - March 13, 2009, 05:13 AM

    Here's a bit about Islam & Wife beating from a site called "Answering Christianity," these scholars too are very well educated in the Quran, Hadiths & Sunnah, & their aim is not to slander Islam, but present it in the best possible light to non believers.

    There seems to be two sites of this nature, "Answering Islam" & "Answering Christianity" by the two big proselytizing faiths of Islam & Christianity, & both sites seem to indulge in a mutual mudslinging operation at each other-accuse the other of being unfeminist, violent, anti science etc. Very amusing to watch for a non believer.  grin12

    This particular article was written by the scholar Bassam Zawadi, who also writes extensively against articles on FFI. This was a rebuttal to the accusation on the site, "Answering Islam," where Christians' had alleged that Islam permits rampant wife beating.

    This scholar doesn't deny that Islam permits wife beating, his only claim is that it puts multiple restrictions on the nature of the beating & reasons for the beating & all the Quranic & Hadith's sources regarding wife beating are given in the article, with the scholar asserting again & again that wife beating is allowed only for some limited reasons.

    However, the conclusion I can draw after reading all the sources is that-wife beating is allowed in the Quran, allowed by hadiths & allowed by the Prophet's sunnah when he hit little Ayesha on the chest which hurt her.

    Note: Not once does this article claim that Islam prohibits wife beating.
    www.answering-christianity.com/bassam_zawadi/rebuttal_to_response_to_badawi.htm

    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #21 - March 13, 2009, 05:46 AM

    saffyold writes:
    'men have authority over women'
    the word that u have translated as men(rajul) is ambiguous,it actually means the one that can stnd on their own 2feet,this could be men or women (their is a criteria).women are preferred over men if they fit that
    'Good women are obedient'
    this is obedience to God, NOT to man, as wifes can blatantly refuse their husbands in many cases.


    Hi saffyold!

    I'm not an Arabic speaker, but I've read translations of the Quran, anyway in the verse 4:34 you claim that the word rajul can even mean women if they fit the neccessary criteria, right? So women can also have the authority over their husbands if they fit that criteria as per your assertion? But I presume that the word used for women is  not ambiguous? If it is not ambiguous, men can mean men or women fitting the criteria, but women can mean only women. So can the verse can just as well be translated as "women have authority over women" ie interpreted to mean that one woman has authority over another in a "lesbian relationship"? rofl

    However, the next bit immediately goes onto say that women are obedient, however, if it is obedience to Allah & not to man, why not speak of good men being obedient as well? If we study the words in context, why would Allah speak of good women being obedient to Him, immediately after saying that someone has authority over women, that someone "rajul"being a word most often used for the male? Or even if He did say that, won't He have clarified that good men are obedient to Allah also, or at least said that good men are obedient?




    World renowned historian Will Durant"...the Islamic conquest of India is probably the bloodiest story in history. It is a discouraging tale, for its evident moral is that civilization is a precious good, whose delicate complex order and freedom can at any moment be overthrown..."
  • Re: DOMESTIC VIOLENCE IS TOTALLY REFUTED AND PROHIBITED IN ISLAM
     Reply #22 - March 13, 2009, 06:26 AM

    Hello Saffyold.

    "Ask the slave girl; she will tell you the truth.' So the Apostle called Burayra to ask her. Ali got up and gave her a violent beating first, saying, 'Tell the Apostle the truth.'"
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