Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #240 - December 21, 2009, 12:07 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 20, 2009, 11:42 PM
You are right. But when I say Muslim, I mean ones who practice. Most Muslims in my campus take their religion seriously. Not many are just Muslim by name from my experience. But honestly, why is it so hard for them to wish people a merry Christmas/Diwali/hanukkah? We wish them Eid Mubarak and wish them a good Ramadan but they can't do the same with us.

Because it would be hypocritical - they cant wish you luck for something you are wrong about, and you will be deep fried in hell for..

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #241 - December 21, 2009, 01:21 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 20, 2009, 11:48 PM
Hmm, what university is this? I find university tends to really be ground zero, or like a fork in the road when it comes to young muslims becoming religious. The Muslim social groups are so strong there that they capture every young muslim guy that comes in and very few gets through the net. This is also a time when lots of newly graduated muslim kids (including myself once!) suffer a sort of identity crisis as they come of age. It's hard for a Muslim to square his religion with western culture - and campus demagogues and dawaists present an 'or/else' choice to these young guys: be part of the brotherhood and accept our ideas, or be alone. So really, these young guys are the worst out of any muslims. I see older practicing muslims saying merry christmas all the time in my office and my mom/dad/sis are the first to say it as am I.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #242 - December 21, 2009, 01:54 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 20, 2009, 11:48 PM
Hmm, what university is this? I find university tends to really be ground zero, or like a fork in the road when it comes to young muslims becoming religious. The Muslim social groups are so strong there that they capture every young muslim guy that comes in and very few gets through the net. This is also a time when lots of newly graduated muslim kids (including myself once!) suffer a sort of identity crisis as they come of age. It's hard for a Muslim to square his religion with western culture - and campus demagogues and dawaists present an 'or/else' choice to these young guys: be part of the brotherhood and accept our ideas, or be alone. So really, these young guys are the worst out of any muslims. I see older practicing muslims saying merry christmas all the time in my office and my mom/dad/sis are the first to say it as am I.

But why do some Muslims feel isolated? it seems like a self feeding cycle of not socialising with non-Muslims, then claim that they don't feel welcome and thus drawn towards Muslim groups on campus. I'm in a number of different clubs at university, nothing ever stopped them from joining one of the many youth political parties or philosophy society or engineering society (ENSOC) or one of the many other groups - yet I don't see Muslims joining anything that is non-Muslim.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #243 - December 21, 2009, 05:14 AM

They cannot befriend or be around kuffar because the kuffar will corrupt the muslims!

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #244 - December 21, 2009, 06:32 AM

Quote from: Cool Canadian on December 21, 2009, 05:14 AM
They cannot befriend or be around kuffar because the kuffar will corrupt the muslims!

yeah, I know what it is like - I've corrupted a lot of Muslims in my time - with the encounter always ending with the ominous words of, "God Kaiwai, you're so tight - too bad I've got to go back to my arrange marriage in [insert country here]"

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #245 - December 21, 2009, 06:40 AM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 21, 2009, 01:54 AM
But why do some Muslims feel isolated? it seems like a self feeding cycle of not socialising with non-Muslims, then claim that they don't feel welcome and thus drawn towards Muslim groups on campus. I'm in a number of different clubs at university, nothing ever stopped them from joining one of the many youth political parties or philosophy society or engineering society (ENSOC) or one of the many other groups - yet I don't see Muslims joining anything that is non-Muslim.

Yes it is pretty much a self-feeding cycle. Mind you, the real reason you don't see that many Muslims doing x, y or z is of course because Muslims do not account for more than 5% of the populations in most western nations.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #246 - December 21, 2009, 07:23 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 21, 2009, 06:40 AM
Yes it is pretty much a self-feeding cycle. Mind you, the real reason you don't see that many Muslims doing x, y or z is of course because Muslims do not account for more than 5% of the populations in most western nations.

But you don't see the same problems with Sikh, Hindu etc. immigrants who also make up less than 5% of the population - yet I see a wide spectrum of different groups represented in a variety of groups at university.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #247 - December 21, 2009, 01:30 PM

.. and another bangladeshi ex-muslim on youtube

www.youtube.com/jajaborreturns#p/a/u/0/5G_Nwa7W66w

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #248 - December 21, 2009, 03:34 PM

Quote from: kaiwai on December 21, 2009, 07:23 AM
But you don't see the same problems with Sikh, Hindu etc. immigrants who also make up less than 5% of the population - yet I see a wide spectrum of different groups represented in a variety of groups at university.

Nah, sikhs are pretty much as exclusive as Muslims in Canada. And besides, how do you know there are not Muslims involved in campus life? Do you have a Towelhead-dar?

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #249 - December 21, 2009, 04:28 PM

Quote
Nah, sikhs are pretty much as exclusive as Muslims in Canada. And besides, how do you know there are not Muslims involved in campus life? Do you have a Towelhead-dar?

In the UK Sikhs are pretty integrated, as are the Hindu community. Of course, you can make generalisations, and there are always exceptions, but my experience pretty much concurs with that of Kaiwai and Cool Canadian. I think the different attitude towards society and life is discernable in the second and third generation South Asians of different backgrounds. Of course these are broad brush strokes, but nevertheless, you can see certain markers that are different.

Its about orientation and attitude. Non Muslim Asians seem to embrace opportunities, and don't reflexively reject or fear British society with the same amplitude as many Muslims do. And I do think an important word here is fear. I think much of what it is, and the relative success of minorities, comes down to how much they fear society.

Another thing that might seem superficial but is in some way representative of a difference in attitude is alcohol. Alcohol is very demonised by Muslim society, as are drinkers. But for better or worse, Britain is a pub culture, a drinking culture. And Hindus and Sikhs are in general relaxed about drinking, and for better or worse, this enables them to mix in society and have less anxiety in social situations. In fact in the midlands and parts of London, many pubs are owned by British Sikhs and Hindus, and these are in multi-ethnic areas.

I'm not saying this is the only thing, the only marker, and I'm not nessecarily criticising per se Muslims for not feeling at ease in this part of society, but it is an observation.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #250 - December 22, 2009, 02:59 AM

Quote from: Kafirist on December 21, 2009, 03:34 PM
Nah, sikhs are pretty much as exclusive as Muslims in Canada. And besides, how do you know there are not Muslims involved in campus life? Do you have a Towelhead-dar?

Easy - the actually integrate and they make damn sure that you don't confuse them with Muslims If they're a Sikh, they'll make damn sure you don't confuse them with Muslims

@Billy, you hit the nail right on the head - I can only evaluate it as far as my experience in New Zealand; you find that Muslims seem to be continuously huddled together and refusing to socialise outside of the group.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #251 - December 22, 2009, 01:07 PM

I had some Indian friends at university and they invited me to a diwali party once. I had a great time. There was Bollywood dancing groups, the DJ played funky bhangra music, there was alcohol, there was men and women mixing without any hangups, there were lots of non Indian folks having fun, there were even some Muslims I knew from uni enjoying themselves *shock horror* (they must have escaped the campus morality police for the evening)

I can never imagine such a relaxed, laid back, fun evening at at Eid event. It would be rare to be invited to attend and not be lectured on the wonders of Islam or be immersed in dawah atmospherics. At a diwali event nobody ever makes you feel unwelcome or pushes religious propaganda onto you - in fact in all my years, I have never met a Sikh or Hindu who ever once tried to assert their religion in any way. I've met some white converts to Hare Krishna, but they are quite sweet and docile. I even visited the Hare Krishna temple in central London and ate some free vegetarian curry a couple of times, with a girl I knew who was a yoga expert. I've also been to the pub and gone for pints with Hindu and Sikh lads, and never once have any of them even raised the subject of religion. Its just not in their upbringing, mindset or culture to do so.

I've hung out with some real rascals though, drug dealers who sold weed, shared a spliff with them, and these are Muslims who were basically as non Muslim outwardly as it is possible to be, and even they lectured me about religion and tried to get me to convert, at the slightest sign of not minding when they talked about how one day there would be an uprising of rage against the non believers and other conspiracy minded 'Zeitgeist' shite.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #252 - December 22, 2009, 02:03 PM

You have bangladeshi muslims bunching up together in one area, everyone just follows each other, and they feel 'safer' in a bangladeshi muslim dominated area where there are people they can relate to. They don't try to integrate, they don't risk it to try and experience, to see what's out there, to open their eyes. They don't try, it's easier to say; I want to feel safe, know what i'm dealing with, stick to what I know than go out and venture into a different world.

They are afraid, and islam just reassures that natural fear anyone would have when you go into a different culture. Islam discourages testing out the waters, it simply puts a 'Them and us' idea into people's minds and people feel 'safe' that way, they don't have to think or feel confused as one would when you start thinking...well hang on, maybe these people arn't so bad, so why is islam saying all this? why do my parents warn me against hanging out with these people?...Bangladeshi culture also backs up this fear, and there is racism in this culture too, i've noticed from my family, they don't fully identify themselves as british, instead they see living here as a 'temporary' thing strangly (maybe that's just my parents, because mum moved over here after she got married and dad moved back then too. It's odd because my dad's british born and half white.) Does anyone think that bangladeshi muslims see britain as a temporary place to live in? also that there's racism in bangladeshi culture?

Islam does demonize the west and people here, and if I'm honest even i was to an extent even though I didn't believe much in islam, i felt a 'them and an us' thing, like i was fundamentally different just because i was born in bangladesh and because of the colour of my skin. My parents would make comments such as 'you'll never change the colour of your skin' sure i knew they were being racist, but when it's always there and subtly too you don't realise it but it tints the glasses you are looking through. But as I grew up I realised there is no 'them and us' - it's nothing real but a barrier in the mind. The more you socialise, the more you trust non-muslim people from other backgrounds the obvious it gets, they are people just like you and me. Simple.

Sure culture is always changing, but you can't just come in here with sheilds and force the culture to change, which is what it seems bangladeshi muslim people are trying to do. Of course theyre going to be met with hostility, you just can't go into another country and try and change the way they live - it's pretty much an invasion. Imagine mass migration (is this the right word?) of western people to saudia arabia, taking with them western ideas etc, how would S.A. react? I doubt you'd have muslims putting up with girls in bikinis and causing them to sin.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #253 - December 22, 2009, 02:26 PM

South East Asian countries do have trouble coping with people who are different. They are thrild world countries that never had to deal with issue like immigration, then tended to suffer the opposite problem. Due to the poverty and misery, they have learned to cling on to their cultures as a way of feeling better about themselves so I can see why it happens.

btw what happened to your plans to run away to the States?

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #254 - December 22, 2009, 02:33 PM

Stardust - its natural for immigrants to live close to each other and gravitate towards areas where they have some familiarity. Especially when they first arrive, they may face hostility or discrimination. In fact in the long term such areas can arguably help integration by allowing the first generation to consolidate itself financially and orientate itself. This is a common experience of immigrants and ethnic minorities everywhere. Look at Wembley and Southall which are very Indian influenced, look at Golders Green / Stamford Hill which are very Jewish influenced. Look at Chinatown, and Brixton in South London for the Jamaican / Carribean community.

What matters, I think, is how porous these areas are, and how the second, third and fourth generations orientate themselves once the initial hardship of arrival is overcome. What is the trajectory of the community? Is it outward looking? Are areas considered not as a shard space, but as an exclusive territory? And I have to say, that I do believe Islam presents an ideological challenge and inhibition to young Muslims of various ethnic backgrounds inhibiting the natural trajectory and attitude needed to really flourish emotionally and culturally in various non Muslim societal contexts. Of course, this should be qualified - this is not a hard and fast rule, but it is a noticeable observation.

Also, did you know that the Brick Lane area is being lobbied to be converted into Banglatown, which kind of goes against the whole spirit of that part of the east end, in which various immigrant communities over centuries have landed and used it as a base before going on their adventures across the generations? Why should it be rendered exclusively as Bangladeshi, when it has so much Jewish, Huguenot and other immigrant history? What I mean is, the whole essence of Brick Lane and Tower Hamlets is that it didn't belong to any one community and yet it belonged to everyone, and in the future it should also have that character of belonging to future generations of new immigrants who will go there and change it in their own way. For the sake of a marketing exercise, what is already dangerously close to being a Bangladeshi Muslim ghetto is getting lobbied to be symbolically and formally rendered as Banglatown.....I can't help feeling this goes against the very grain of the area.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #255 - December 22, 2009, 02:42 PM

Billy, were you born and brought up in the UK - Which parts?

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #256 - December 22, 2009, 03:03 PM

It's understandable, that if there is no banglatown people will want one as there's a china town etc. I don't know much about brick lane and tower hamlett, although heard there are a lot of bangladeshi's there. If as you say it is a sort of transition area, and if that's how the majority feel about, and there are significant number of other cultures there etc, then yeah they probably shouldnt do that. Also I think they shouldn't do that because it sort of labels it as the place to be if you're from a bangladeshi background - and discouraging exploration.

Sure you've mentioned comming across discrimination etc, but we've lived in an area where there's no other bangladeshi people, for 20years? now probably (although i see a lot of bangladeshi's popping up around this area these days) and our neighbours have been friendly, I remember going to their kids parties when I was a kid, and them comming to ours. It's just about braving it, there are going to be people who are mean, but (correct me if i'm being too optomist) I think the majority of people are nice, decent people, who would give you a helping hand. But also it's partly on you to try and get along as well. Personally, I think it would be exciting to go live somewhere that isn't the same after all you travel all the way from bangladesh to come to another country where it's pretty much been made into another bangladesh? (with advantages of course).

Also you're right about the generations, I can understand the older generation who've newly come over being cautious etc etc, but then younger ones should surely be encouraged or learn from the experience of the elders, although since the elders lock themselves up of course they're not going to shed positive light on what it's like to live along side non-muslim, non-bangladeshi people. And thus you have the problem, it's the root of it, you need to get rid of ghettos it locks peoples minds (generally speaking, sure there will be some who are still open minded).

Experience is what makes you grow, changes your perspective, if you're in a ghetto you only see things one way. There's bias everywhere, but the more people, places, ideas you are exposed to the less biased your judgement of anything will be.

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #257 - December 22, 2009, 03:08 PM

Quote from: IsLame on December 22, 2009, 02:42 PM
Billy, were you born and brought up in the UK - Which parts?

London mostly, but moved around a bit growing up, lived in Birmingham for quite a few years, recently moved to a town outside Brum.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #258 - December 22, 2009, 03:12 PM

Quote from: IsLame on December 22, 2009, 02:26 PM
South East Asian countries do have trouble coping with people who are different. They are thrild world countries that never had to deal with issue like immigration, then tended to suffer the opposite problem. Due to the poverty and misery, they have learned to cling on to their cultures as a way of feeling better about themselves so I can see why it happens.

btw what happened to your plans to run away to the States?

Lol, that idea got thrown out. I guess that was a form of running away from my problems, I think I've grown a pair since :p. I'm going to face my parents, when the time is right, I'll just tell them I don't believe, don't want an arranged marriage etc. Oh also found this organization which places you in a certain city in the uk, which doesn't include where I live currently, and I'm going to go with that and move out at the end of this academic year (hopefully if i get the job), get an appartment close to the place. I don't think they will follow me.

"Between stimulus and response there is a space. In that space is our power to choose our response. In our response lies our growth and our freedom." - Viktor E. Frankl

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Re: Why I am also sick of Bangladeshi society...
Reply #259 - December 22, 2009, 03:13 PM

Quote from: stardust on December 22, 2009, 03:03 PM
Sure you've mentioned comming across discrimination etc, but we've lived in an area where there's no other bangladeshi people, for 20years?

I agree with you. But in the past, especially in the years leading up to the 1980's, there were real visceral issues of discrimination, racist violence, that thankfully are not there to the same extent today. So it was as much a historical point as anything. The general point I was making was about how its not that hard to understand why people gravitate to certain areas, its natural to an extent. What matters is how permeable these areas are - not just physically, but mentally too - the ghettoes of the mind, if you like.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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