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Theme Changer

 Topic: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?

 (Read 4023 times)
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  • Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     OP - August 09, 2009, 05:29 PM

    During my time as a muslim and now as an ex-muslim atheist, I have made some observations regarding muslims and ex-muslims. I have seen the categories below. Some of these categories might be stereotyping and will certainly annoy some people. Which category do you fit in? If there is another category? If so please add it in. Here goes....

    1 - The scholars like Hamza Yusuf or Abdal Hakim Murad who are intelligent people in their own right. Tread the middle path. Usually converts to Islam after studying it and are sincere in their belief. If in later life they do realise that their position might be incorrect they very rarely apostate. They make the initial leap of faith and try to construct reasoning upon that. They are either from the Sunni or Salafi strain. There might be some from the Shia strain. Alot of young intelligent western muslims would listen to their lectures.

    2 - Scholars or charlatans that manipulate people, they may or may not be educated, examples are the "pirs" in the indo/pak community who play on the superstitions and fears of the masses. Although there have been sincere sufi's in the past such as Rumi, Moin-Uddin-Chishti, Mian Mohd Baksh, Junaid Baghdadi, Ibn Arabi or the other sufi sages. There are very little like them now. The exception might be Nuh Ha Mim Keller. They usually develop a cult like following and often extract large sums of money from their flock. A recent example is Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi affectionately known as R.A.G.S.

    3 - Muslims who have always been practising and come from generations of practising families. Might come from traditional Indo/Pak "deoband" or "barelwi" families. Might go on Tablighi Jamaat and might knock on your door in groups of 6-7 to ask you to attend the masjid. Tend to plod along and not question their faith, but will question the faith of others. Will normally use circular reasoning in their argument or just say "ASTAGHFIRULLAH". May listen to lectures by Riyadh-ul-Haq and read books by Ashraf Ali Thanvi.

    4 - Muslims who generally start practising Islam after some major event or an epiphany. Usually as a response to 9/11 or 7/7. May feel the need for some sort of cultural identity. Tend to be college or university educated and have professional jobs. Some will try to rationalise faith by pointing to "scientific verses" in the Quran. They either follow traditional Sunni/Shia Islam or become Salafis (normally gathering a huge convert following). Normally westerners and will tend to listen to lectures by Hamza Yusuf or Bilaal Phillips. They may also become radical and join Hizb-ut-Tahrir. Might be found at speakers corner in Regents Park London or attending some talk on Rumi's poetry at Freinds House Euston.

    5 - Nominal muslims born into the religion, attend jumma, go to the eid prayers and the janazahs. They accept that islam is true and usually don't question it but are lapsed. Could also be called "just in case muslim", they generally know that they are sinning by not praying five times a day. Ironically they seem to suddenly have a surge of faith and begin to piously fast during ramadan and attend the tarawih prayers too. Once that month is over it's business as usual which for the "Halal" earners it could be a profession or a regular 9-5 job. Or the "Haram" earners who like to see themselves as gangsters and drug pushers. They may or may not drink and usually will hope to live long enough to go on hajj to have their sins wiped out and return with a halo and the obligatory fist length beard. They are usually the type who would fall for the conspiracy theories and look for bizarre "signs" of Allah and his "Messenger" in pieces of fruit, clouds, vermin and in forests to try and prop up their belief. They are also from time to time the type that would try to look for evidence of the "truth" of their religion in other scriptures. Another notable quality is the sporadic emails they send out with instructions on what dua's to read when in trouble. These people are unlikely to apostate but ironically, the muslim would accuse the appostate of belonging to this group!

    6 - The progressive muslims who try to do away with the backdrop of the hadith and use reasoning and spin from the Quran. Some of them fall into the cultural relatavism trap and may or may not be apologetic. They want to see a reformation and a re-reading of the text. They see that there are problems with "muslims" and that "Islam" isn't the problem. Not comfortable with hadith literature or orthodoxy some might cherry pick. The sunnis and shia would class these people as apostates. You could say that they have shut the shop but forgot to pull down the shutters. Irshad Manji is a prime example.

    7 - Ex-muslims - who fall into several categories:-

    a - There are those who simply can't let go of religion or god and become christians or adopt some form of theism. They don't want the "harshness" or mundane rituals of Islam. See god as love and mercy and like to do away with the harsher attributes of god. Usually get accused of trying to integrate "too much" into the West.

    b - Keep religion but let go of god and adopt buddhism or some other eastern philosophy. Very rare group.

    c - A minority are those who either become atheists, agnostics or even deists after a fairly long struggle with faith. Most of the time these people have given faith the benefit of the doubt and have initially fought off skeptic thought and generally have been under the impression that there is flaw in their understanding rather than a problem with the religion itself. The majority of apostates would fall into this category and have either been nominal muslims or former practising muslims that can philosophically justify their unbelief. People like this are Taslima Nasreen, Ibn Warraq or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. These people are in the public eye and are vocal about their atheism. Muslims reckon that these people are "misguided" and never understood the religion in the first place or had a tough religious upbringing.

    d - Similar to above but not vocal these people will have worked out the man made nature of religion and will keep it to themselves for the rest of their lives. They feel no need to broadcast their apostasy and only a handfull of people might know about it. They might describe themselves as "cultural muslims" and just wanna be left alone and not have beliefs thrust upon them. A huge number of apostates fit this category and approximate numbers are hard to come by because most people do not want to declare their atheism or agnosticism for reasons which should be more than obvious.

    e - Outright atheists or agnostics from upbrining or the word go. These people are either born into a secular family and are brought up as atheists/agnostics. An example is Tariq Ali or Salman Rushdie. These people are very vocal and not afraid to air their views. Indo/Pak muslims would class them as "communists" or people who simply don't understand the "deen". Converting these people to Islam is a hard task and they hold their own very well indeed, justifying their position philosophically. Classing these people as apostates would be unfair cos if they never believed from the word go then they shouldn't really be in that category.

    So which category did you fit when you were a muslim and which do you fit now? If I have missed any categories please feel free to add.

    As an atheist i'm somewhere between 7.c/d and when I was a muslim it was category 4. My own event trigger was the Salman Rushdie affair.

  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #1 - August 09, 2009, 05:45 PM

    Fascinating stuff but I don't fit into either category though I do recognise them all. You could add one which describes me. One that was generally apathetic about religion then suddenly had a faith awakening and become a very active Muslims, a dawah giver, pamplet writer and public speaker. Then slowly through years of study and activism realise its all non-sense. But have already surrounded themselves by a very religious crowd and now its too late. A very lonely and sad place to be.

    Take the Pakman challenge and convince me there is a God and Mo was not a murdering, power hungry sex maniac.
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #2 - August 09, 2009, 06:16 PM

    Fascinating stuff but I don't fit into either category though I do recognise them all. You could add one which describes me. One that was generally apathetic about religion then suddenly had a faith awakening and become a very active Muslims, a dawah giver, pamplet writer and public speaker. Then slowly through years of study and activism realise its all non-sense. But have already surrounded themselves by a very religious crowd and now its too late. A very lonely and sad place to be.


    That fairly describes me too - though I don't have to hide what I think.
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #3 - August 09, 2009, 07:36 PM

    So which category did you fit when you were a muslim and which do you fit now? If I have missed any categories please feel free to add.

    As an atheist i'm somewhere between 7.c/d and when I was a muslim it was category 4. My own event trigger was the Salman Rushdie affair.


    I fit into alot of those categories in one way or another.

    For Muslim, born a Muslim. I would have called myself a "just in case Muslim" but did become way observent after 9/11. Almost extreme like with the full body cover as a reaction of the hostility that was being poured onto Muslims but saying that i'd say i was progressive even at my height of 'religiousness' i accepted faults of Islam or acknowledged them to myself and always thought Islam was long overdue on reform and a re look at texts.

    And as a ex Muslim ...
    Well, i don't know and not sure

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #4 - August 09, 2009, 09:32 PM

    Quote
    c - A minority are those who either become atheists, agnostics or even deists after a fairly long struggle with faith. Most of the time these people have given faith the benefit of the doubt and have initially fought off skeptic thought and generally have been under the impression that there is flaw in their understanding rather than a problem with the religion itself. The majority of apostates would fall into this category and have either been nominal muslims or former practising muslims that can philosophically justify their unbelief. People like this are Taslima Nasreen, Ibn Warraq or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. These people are in the public eye and are vocal about their atheism. Muslims reckon that these people are "misguided" and never understood the religion in the first place or had a tough religious upbringing.


    this is the closest fit, but I never had a long struggle with faith & never thought that there was a misunderstanding in my faith

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #5 - August 09, 2009, 09:37 PM

    So how long have you been an atheist Islame and what about friends etc? Has any other muslim friend of yours agreed with you?
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #6 - August 09, 2009, 09:53 PM

    I'm not an atheist, I've been an agnostic for many years as I keep the possibility of a creator open.

    And yes, I have had muslims friends that dont agree with me, partly agree with me, those that have gone on the same path as me, and those that have gone one step further than me.

    My Book     news002       
    My Blog  pccoffee
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #7 - August 23, 2009, 07:38 PM

    During my time as a muslim and now as an ex-muslim atheist, I have made some observations regarding muslims and ex-muslims. I have seen the categories below. Some of these categories might be stereotyping and will certainly annoy some people. Which category do you fit in? If there is another category? If so please add it in. Here goes....

    1 - The scholars like Hamza Yusuf or Abdal Hakim Murad who are intelligent people in their own right. Tread the middle path. Usually converts to Islam after studying it and are sincere in their belief. If in later life they do realise that their position might be incorrect they very rarely apostate. They make the initial leap of faith and try to construct reasoning upon that. They are either from the Sunni or Salafi strain. There might be some from the Shia strain. Alot of young intelligent western muslims would listen to their lectures.

    2 - Scholars or charlatans that manipulate people, they may or may not be educated, examples are the "pirs" in the indo/pak community who play on the superstitions and fears of the masses. Although there have been sincere sufi's in the past such as Rumi, Moin-Uddin-Chishti, Mian Mohd Baksh, Junaid Baghdadi, Ibn Arabi or the other sufi sages. There are very little like them now. The exception might be Nuh Ha Mim Keller. They usually develop a cult like following and often extract large sums of money from their flock. A recent example is Riaz Ahmed Gohar Shahi affectionately known as R.A.G.S.

    3 - Muslims who have always been practising and come from generations of practising families. Might come from traditional Indo/Pak "deoband" or "barelwi" families. Might go on Tablighi Jamaat and might knock on your door in groups of 6-7 to ask you to attend the masjid. Tend to plod along and not question their faith, but will question the faith of others. Will normally use circular reasoning in their argument or just say "ASTAGHFIRULLAH". May listen to lectures by Riyadh-ul-Haq and read books by Ashraf Ali Thanvi.

    4 - Muslims who generally start practising Islam after some major event or an epiphany. Usually as a response to 9/11 or 7/7. May feel the need for some sort of cultural identity. Tend to be college or university educated and have professional jobs. Some will try to rationalise faith by pointing to "scientific verses" in the Quran. They either follow traditional Sunni/Shia Islam or become Salafis (normally gathering a huge convert following). Normally westerners and will tend to listen to lectures by Hamza Yusuf or Bilaal Phillips. They may also become radical and join Hizb-ut-Tahrir. Might be found at speakers corner in Regents Park London or attending some talk on Rumi's poetry at Freinds House Euston.

    5 - Nominal muslims born into the religion, attend jumma, go to the eid prayers and the janazahs. They accept that islam is true and usually don't question it but are lapsed. Could also be called "just in case muslim", they generally know that they are sinning by not praying five times a day. Ironically they seem to suddenly have a surge of faith and begin to piously fast during ramadan and attend the tarawih prayers too. Once that month is over it's business as usual which for the "Halal" earners it could be a profession or a regular 9-5 job. Or the "Haram" earners who like to see themselves as gangsters and drug pushers. They may or may not drink and usually will hope to live long enough to go on hajj to have their sins wiped out and return with a halo and the obligatory fist length beard. They are usually the type who would fall for the conspiracy theories and look for bizarre "signs" of Allah and his "Messenger" in pieces of fruit, clouds, vermin and in forests to try and prop up their belief. They are also from time to time the type that would try to look for evidence of the "truth" of their religion in other scriptures. Another notable quality is the sporadic emails they send out with instructions on what dua's to read when in trouble. These people are unlikely to apostate but ironically, the muslim would accuse the appostate of belonging to this group!

    6 - The progressive muslims who try to do away with the backdrop of the hadith and use reasoning and spin from the Quran. Some of them fall into the cultural relatavism trap and may or may not be apologetic. They want to see a reformation and a re-reading of the text. They see that there are problems with "muslims" and that "Islam" isn't the problem. Not comfortable with hadith literature or orthodoxy some might cherry pick. The sunnis and shia would class these people as apostates. You could say that they have shut the shop but forgot to pull down the shutters. Irshad Manji is a prime example.

    7 - Ex-muslims - who fall into several categories:-

    a - There are those who simply can't let go of religion or god and become christians or adopt some form of theism. They don't want the "harshness" or mundane rituals of Islam. See god as love and mercy and like to do away with the harsher attributes of god. Usually get accused of trying to integrate "too much" into the West.

    b - Keep religion but let go of god and adopt buddhism or some other eastern philosophy. Very rare group.

    c - A minority are those who either become atheists, agnostics or even deists after a fairly long struggle with faith. Most of the time these people have given faith the benefit of the doubt and have initially fought off skeptic thought and generally have been under the impression that there is flaw in their understanding rather than a problem with the religion itself. The majority of apostates would fall into this category and have either been nominal muslims or former practising muslims that can philosophically justify their unbelief. People like this are Taslima Nasreen, Ibn Warraq or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. These people are in the public eye and are vocal about their atheism. Muslims reckon that these people are "misguided" and never understood the religion in the first place or had a tough religious upbringing.

    d - Similar to above but not vocal these people will have worked out the man made nature of religion and will keep it to themselves for the rest of their lives. They feel no need to broadcast their apostasy and only a handfull of people might know about it. They might describe themselves as "cultural muslims" and just wanna be left alone and not have beliefs thrust upon them. A huge number of apostates fit this category and approximate numbers are hard to come by because most people do not want to declare their atheism or agnosticism for reasons which should be more than obvious.

    e - Outright atheists or agnostics from upbrining or the word go. These people are either born into a secular family and are brought up as atheists/agnostics. An example is Tariq Ali or Salman Rushdie. These people are very vocal and not afraid to air their views. Indo/Pak muslims would class them as "communists" or people who simply don't understand the "deen". Converting these people to Islam is a hard task and they hold their own very well indeed, justifying their position philosophically. Classing these people as apostates would be unfair cos if they never believed from the word go then they shouldn't really be in that category.

    So which category did you fit when you were a muslim and which do you fit now? If I have missed any categories please feel free to add.

    As an atheist i'm somewhere between 7.c/d and when I was a muslim it was category 4. My own event trigger was the Salman Rushdie affair.




    Those who haven't replied. Come on!!!!!! If there are more categories lets have em!
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #8 - August 23, 2009, 08:03 PM

    I think you are spot on there, and don't think you have missed anything out. I would put myself at 7D.

    Religion - The hot potato that looked delicious but ended up burning your mouth!

    Knock your head on the ground, don't be miserly in your prayers, listen to your Sidi Sheikh, Allahu Akbar! - Lounes Matoub
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #9 - August 23, 2009, 08:14 PM

    Where I was muslim:


    5 - Nominal muslims born into the religion, attend jumma, go to the eid prayers and the janazahs. They accept that islam is true and usually don't question it but are lapsed. Could also be called "just in case muslim", they generally know that they are sinning by not praying five times a day. Ironically they seem to suddenly have a surge of faith and begin to piously fast during ramadan and attend the tarawih prayers too. Once that month is over it's business as usual which for the "Halal" earners it could be a profession or a regular 9-5 job. Or the "Haram" earners who like to see themselves as gangsters and drug pushers. They may or may not drink and usually will hope to live long enough to go on hajj to have their sins wiped out and return with a halo and the obligatory fist length beard. They are usually the type who would fall for the conspiracy theories and look for bizarre "signs" of Allah and his "Messenger" in pieces of fruit, clouds, vermin and in forests to try and prop up their belief. They are also from time to time the type that would try to look for evidence of the "truth" of their religion in other scriptures. Another notable quality is the sporadic emails they send out with instructions on what dua's to read when in trouble. These people are unlikely to apostate but ironically, the muslim would accuse the appostate of belonging to this group!


    Now:

    d - Similar to above but not vocal these people will have worked out the man made nature of religion and will keep it to themselves for the rest of their lives. They feel no need to broadcast their apostasy and only a handfull of people might know about it. They might describe themselves as "cultural muslims" and just wanna be left alone and not have beliefs thrust upon them. A huge number of apostates fit this category and approximate numbers are hard to come by because most people do not want to declare their atheism or agnosticism for reasons which should be more than obvious.

    Closets after closets
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #10 - August 24, 2009, 12:58 AM

    I dont think I've come across this in any of the types mentioned above, but there is quite a large number of 'just in case' muslims out there. Usually people born into the faith and following primarily because of tradition or habit. They are normally tolerant of other religions and do see holes and flaws in islam or theism in general but chose keep practising 'in case' its all true. To quote a friend of mine: "I'd rather live believing in god to die and find out there isnt one, than to live not believing and then die and find out there is." Its weak, but its reason enough for them.



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
  • Re: Where did you fit or can you relate to any of these?
     Reply #11 - August 24, 2009, 01:02 AM

    As for myself, I dont think I fit into any of the muslim categories since I was never 'really' muslim to begin with. The only reason I'd have that title is due to being born into a muslim pakistani family. But even as a child, growing up I was never comfortable with religion, especially Islam. After coming of age I realized the discomfort was due to lack of belief. I still hold beliefs, mostly pantheistic ones, so I might fall in 7B..



    Quod est inferius est sicut quod est superius,
    et quod est superius est sicut quod est inferius,
    ad perpetranda miracula rei unius.
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