Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes

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Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
OP - September 12, 2009, 11:25 AM

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2009/09/11/84656.html

Dutch-language public schools in Belgium will ban the wearing of Muslim veils in classes, school officials in the Flanders region announced Friday.

The ban affects 700 schools in the northern region of Flanders, including some in Brussels.

It follows protests after two schools in Antwerp this month joined other schools where the veil is already banned.

Responding to a complaint by a student at one of the schools, Belgium's highest administrative tribunal ruled on Tuesday that schools could not take such decisions on their own.

The tribunal will rule on the student's appeal next Tuesday -- prompting the community's education board to make public its unified stance on Friday.

Belgian schools have previously enjoyed autonomy in such decisions, with one third authorizing the wearing of Muslim veils, another forbidding them and the remainder giving no formal guidance.

The Flemish school board said the ban in communal schools would be introduced gradually to give time to those establishments which have not banned the veil to do so.

Schools in Flanders that are financed by other Belgian communities -- mostly Catholic schools run by municipalities -- are not bound by the order.

School authorities in the main Flemish town of Antwerp announced a ban on the veil from the start of the next academic year.

A similar debate is underway in Belgium's French-speaking Wallonia, and the Brussels capital region.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #1 - September 12, 2009, 02:17 PM

I never know what to think about bans like this...
I don't like them (most of the boys don't anyways =P).
But isn't it "unfair"?

Bans like this cause segregation of populations (muslims and non muslims) and eventually will cause deaths because of terrorist attacks.

But on the other hand, I wasn't allowed to keep my hat on in class. So why should they be allowed to have their veil on?

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #2 - September 12, 2009, 02:37 PM

This has to be done carefully and wisely, but not with an apologist tone.

Veil in school? What people are not going to raise their gaze and stare at you for wearing one in the first place?? >_<

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #3 - September 12, 2009, 02:37 PM

I used to be on the fence about the banning of the VEIL i.e. burqa/niqab/jilbab (not the headscarf/hijab). I still think hijab (the scarf that covers the hair, not the face) itself can NOT be banned in a secular, democratic society unless we want to compromise those very same secular, democratic ideals.

However, the veil is a different matter. First of all, there is NO proof that the veil is part of Islam. It is tolerated and sometimes encourage but there's no instance (that I know of , having looked) where face covering is mandated. So technically the veil is *not* an Islamic issue.

However, there are Muslims who do make it seem like it is.

But the veil does need to be banned in public places for security and functionality reasons. From banks to parks (especially where there are children) to classrooms to vehicles to stores to airports to hospitals to offices, anywhere where the person in a veil will or COULD interact with another person, any other person, the veil is as much a security risk as a stocking pulled over someone's face or a ski mask. And functionality-wise, anywhere that the person in the veil has to express herself like engage in class discussions, talk to a nurse or doctor, etc., since most communication takes place via body language and especially facial expressions, the veil is completely counter-productive, distracting and possibly dangerous.

On those grounds, I stopped fence sitting. The burqa/niqaab/jilbab ought to be banned for security and functionality reasons at the very least.

The fact that they are symbols of misogyny and patriarchy and that they signify a mindset that justifies rape by blaming the victim who dares to not be hidden inside a tent, these are considerations that our politically correct western politicians/feminists/"progressive" muslims are just not allowed to bring up. But that is a deeper issue that banning the veil will not eradicate.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #4 - September 12, 2009, 03:17 PM

Women are not allowed to cover their faces when they are in the state of Ihram for Hajj/Ummrah.

You know for the most holiest of Islamic rituals, when the covering of face is not allowed in Hajj...why the hell do these people tell their women to cover their faces as well??

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #5 - September 12, 2009, 04:19 PM

Quote from: allat on September 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
I still think hijab (the scarf that covers the hair, not the face) itself can NOT be banned in a secular, democratic society unless we want to compromise those very same secular, democratic ideals.

It's a tough one. People should be allowed to dress as the like, say what they like, pray how they like ... but there is always a limit. That limit is reached when freedom to act starts to do unlawful things. E.g. I have the freedom to kill things like ants and chickens but not kill humans. By this principle, I think it is fair that women can dress as they please, but if the law states or is in favor for women to keep their identity, dignity, and integrate with society then I agree that the veil should be banned.

I think Sarkozy nailed this well:

Quote
"It will not be welcome on French soil," he said." We cannot accept, in our country, women imprisoned behind a mesh, cut off from society, deprived of all identity. That is not the French republic's idea of women's dignity."

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #6 - September 12, 2009, 04:32 PM

I am against it for young children, I have seen them wearing it at 6 years of age , as it makes them feel different and detached from these secular societies from an early age.

This can be an extremely uncomfortable feeling and can lead to all sorts of complexes, problems & depression later in life.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #7 - September 12, 2009, 04:42 PM

Quote from: HighOctane on September 12, 2009, 04:19 PM
I think Sarkozy nailed this well:

As I understand it, Sarkozy was also referring to the face-covering (aka burqa/niqab/jilbab), and not the head-scarf (aka hijab or chador). I personally don't like either of these because they are tools for men to oppress and repress women with. But there are actually practical reasons to ban the face-covering. Structurally and in terms of how they should be treated, the headscarf is like a hat or hoodie, the veil, like I said before, is like a ski mask or a stocking-covered face. What if there's a robbery or security breach in a bank or airport and the perpetrators are wearing the face-covering burqa and there's no security footage of their faces for police to investigate? Then in classrooms, how are teachers and students supposed to fully communicate with the students who have invisible faces? How is a teacher to gauge whether the student is paying attention, whether she is understanding what's being taught?

Yes women should be allowed and free to wear whatever they want, as much or as little as they want. But not at the expense of public security.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #8 - September 12, 2009, 05:20 PM

It could be argued that it's a matter of choice. But then we need to decide whose choice we have to support.

One the one hand there are women who think they are wearing it for their religion, when actually they are just following the demands of a patriarchial system under the guise of religion and unconsciously reinforcing a whole set of associated attitudes (like women is responsible, man cannot control his lust and other insane attitudes towards sexuality) that are incompatible with liberalism and gender equality.

On the other hand, we might have women who are forced to wear it. Even otherwise, these women could feel guilty for not respecting the attitudes echoed by the veil.

But ultimately it's liberalism which enables this free choice. So among those two groups, whose choice should we give more respect, one which is incompatible with the system that enables it, or the other one?

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #9 - September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM

Quote from: allat on September 12, 2009, 02:37 PM
However, the veil is a different matter. First of all, there is NO proof that the veil is part of Islam. It is tolerated and sometimes encourage but there's no instance (that I know of , having looked) where face covering is mandated. So technically the veil is *not* an Islamic issue.

Bad argument. Essentially you are saying that government can ban certain religious practices if you think it's a misinterpretation of the religion. Considering the wide variety of beliefs and practices that have developed from the same holy books, that cannot be the standard for government intervention in religious practice-- otherwise the Hasidim could be justifiably banned from wearing those black trilbys, as there's nothing in the Bible that expressly requires a Jew to wear a black trilby or fedora. The only just standard is that someone believes it to be a part of their religion, and that practice does not harm anyone else, which brings me to your next point--

Quote
But the veil does need to be banned in public places for security and functionality reasons. From banks to parks (especially where there are children) to classrooms to vehicles to stores to airports to hospitals to offices, anywhere where the person in a veil will or COULD interact with another person, any other person, the veil is as much a security risk as a stocking pulled over someone's face or a ski mask. And functionality-wise, anywhere that the person in the veil has to express herself like engage in class discussions, talk to a nurse or doctor, etc., since most communication takes place via body language and especially facial expressions, the veil is completely counter-productive, distracting and possibly dangerous.

On those grounds, I stopped fence sitting. The burqa/niqaab/jilbab ought to be banned for security and functionality reasons at the very least.

On the security issue, why does any of this require a general ban on the veil in public? Banks and stores can prevent face coverings if they like. Airports can have a female ticket agent or TSA officer verify the identity of a Muslimah by making her remove the veil. Perhaps some legislation preventing liability from anyone who requests removal of the veil as part of a general ban on face coverings in a facility for security purposes might be in order, but why a general ban on use in public areas?

As far as functionality is concerned-- do I really need to explain the slippery slope we put ourselves on if the government is allowed to ban religious practices on the basis of "functionality"? If a doctor isn't able to properly diagnose an adult Muslim woman in a Western country due to the veil/hijab-- hey, tough shit for her. She can choose to ditch the veil or whatever other clothing in the examining room if she wants-- and don't most Muslim women who are that conservative go to female doctors anyways?

When it comes to minors, however, I think it's a different situation. I really think whatever the solution to that is, however, needs to deal with the parents, rather than the child herself. Perhaps through revision of child abuse laws. I'm not sure-- a lot of angles to consider there.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #10 - September 12, 2009, 06:06 PM

Quote from: Q-Man on September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM
Essentially you are saying that government can ban certain religious practices if you think it's a misinterpretation of the religion.

Nope. Read my entire post. I said that the veil is not an Islamic mandate. I never said that that is why the govt should ban it. By acknowledging that the face-covering veil is *not* an Islamic mandate, one can see that it is a geo-tribal symbol, not a religious requirement.

Quote from: Q-Man on September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM
Considering the wide variety of beliefs and practices that have developed from the same holy books, that cannot be the standard for government intervention in religious practice--

Never said that it could be or should be.

Quote from: Q-Man on September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM
On the security issue, why does any of this require a general ban on the veil in public? Banks and stores can prevent face coverings if they like. Airports can have a female ticket agent or TSA officer verify the identity of a Muslimah by making her remove the veil. Perhaps some legislation preventing liability from anyone who requests removal of the veil as part of a general ban on face coverings in a facility for security purposes might be in order, but why a general ban on use in public areas?

Because crimes like robbery, abduction, homicide, rape and property damage happen on streets and public spaces too. Investigations into these crimes require footage from surveillance tapes and/or descriptions given by eye witnesses. A person wearing a full burqa and face covering would be virtually unidentifiable in such a situation, whether the person is the criminal or a potential eye witness.

Quote from: Q-Man on September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM
As far as functionality is concerned-- do I really need to explain the slippery slope we put ourselves on if the government is allowed to ban religious practices on the basis of "functionality"? If a doctor isn't able to properly diagnose an adult Muslim woman in a Western country due to the veil/hijab-- hey, tough shit for her. She can choose to ditch the veil or whatever other clothing in the examining room if she wants-- and don't most Muslim women who are that conservative go to female doctors anyways?

Sure most do. But there are emergency situations as well. And there are other kinds of doctors besides gynecologists. In any case, you haven't addressed the issue of face-coverings in educational environments. Have you taught students, adult or young ones? Part of the teachers' skill is gauging the effects of what he/she is teaching from the facial expressions of the students. This is a vital part of the learning and teaching process that is dealt with in Islamic cultures by segregating men and women into separate gender-based schools. I attended one of those for 8 years. The face covering is a form of segregation itself.

Quote from: Q-Man on September 12, 2009, 05:47 PM
When it comes to minors, however, I think it's a different situation. I really think whatever the solution to that is, however, needs to deal with the parents, rather than the child herself. Perhaps through revision of child abuse laws. I'm not sure-- a lot of angles to consider there.

Little girls wearing face coverings really ought to be checked by children's aid services. It's a particularly sinister form of child abuse.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #11 - September 12, 2009, 06:37 PM

Quote from: allat on September 12, 2009, 06:06 PM
Nope. Read my entire post. I said that the veil is not an Islamic mandate. I never said that that is why the govt should ban it...

...Never said that it could be or should be.

Fair enough. Just seemed like that's where you were going with it to me.

Quote
Because crimes like robbery, abduction, homicide, rape and property damage happen on streets and public spaces too. Investigations into these crimes require footage from surveillance tapes and/or descriptions given by eye witnesses. A person wearing a full burqa and face covering would be virtually unidentifiable in such a situation, whether the person is the criminal or a potential eye witness.

Well, I'm against police security camera in public spaces, streets, sidewalks anyways-- but that's a different conversation entirely. Just sayin. Anyhow, I see what you're saying, but I don't think this is sufficient justification for a ban. I don't think the government can or should ban everything that could potentially be a security concern. I mean, if they did, they'd have to ban clowns, mimes, people dressed up for Halloween, people wearing balaclavas and ski masks in the open when it's brutally cold, windy and snowing outside-- and none of those things even constitute the free exercise of religion. Granted the banning of clowns and mimes would constitute no big loss , but you get what I'm saying.

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Sure most do. But there are emergency situations as well.

Sorry, but if a fully-grown woman is insisting a male doctor can't treat her while she's bleeding out, and there are no female doctors available then the idiot dies-- I don't give a shit, it's her choice. I don't need the government making new invasive laws that curtail the free exercise of religion just to protect morons from their own choices.

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And there are other kinds of doctors besides gynecologists.

Yep, and there are female doctors in other specialties.

Quote
In any case, you haven't addressed the issue of face-coverings in educational environments. Have you taught students, adult or young ones? Part of the teachers' skill is gauging the effects of what he/she is teaching from the facial expressions of the students.

No I have not. But again, if it concerns an adult, that's their choice and if they suffer consequences from it, it's not my nor the governments' business to correct it. The only time the government should step in is if the woman is being forced to wear it by her husband/family, and wants help getting herself and her kids safely away from the oppressive assholes.

Quote
This is a vital part of the learning and teaching process that is dealt with in Islamic cultures by segregating men and women into separate gender-based schools. I attended one of those for 8 years. The face covering is a form of segregation itself.

Yes, that cannot be denied. The question is what is the state's proper role in a Western society from such religiously-based gender segregation? I think the state should intervene with respect to minors and should actively encourage and support adult women who wish to either defy or leave their family or community over such issues, but it should not be forcing the decision upon grown women.

Quote
Little girls wearing face coverings really ought to be checked by children's aid services. It's a particularly sinister form of child abuse.

Agreed.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #12 - September 12, 2009, 08:50 PM

Here are some news stories of burqa-clad bank robbers, there have been others, these are just a few that I saw posted today:

http://www.averroespress.com/AverroesPress/Main/Entries/2009/9/12_Man_in_burqa_holds_up_bank_in_Canada__UK_still_looking_for_its_own_burqa_bandit.html

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Oct. 18, 2007
Burqa-Wearing Bandit Baffles Detectives

N.C. Authorities Don't Know Whether a Man or Woman Held Up a Bank

By DAVID SCHOETZ
ABC News

Authorities in North Carolina don't know whether they are looking for a man or a woman in the search for a burqa-wearing bandit who walked into a bank Tuesday and pointed a gun at a teller before exiting with a bag full of money.

(Alexander County Sheriff's Office)

Investigators are reviewing surveillance footage that captured a dark-skinned person covered by a burgundy-shaded wrap who entered the bank branch in Hiddenite, N.C., around 3:40 p.m. and flashed a semiautomatic handgun. The wrap exposed only the individual's eyes and nose, making it difficult for police to determine the person's gender.

"It doesn't simplify matters, now, does it?" Capt. Keith Warren of the Alexander County Sheriff's Office told ABC News when asked about the unidentifiable "subject" who'd pulled off the stickup.

The person handed a black plastic bag to the teller, who filled the bag with what Warren said was an undisclosed amount of money, and then exited the front door of the building and crossed a field to a waiting getaway car. The vehicle was described by witnesses as a sport-utility-vehicle-station-wagon hybrid the same color as the person's burqa.

Scott Mitchell, a clerk at a nearby supermarket, told WSOC in Charlotte that it was unusual to see someone wearing a burqa in Hiddenite, especially on such a hot day.

"It definitely struck me as off, being as warm as it was," Mitchell said. "Wearing black pants with a burqa? You just don't see that every day."

Authorities are investigating whether Tuesday's heist is connected with a recent robbery in Morganton, another North Carolina town about 50 miles away.

"Morganton had one with certain similarities," Warren said, describing surveillance footage from that crime scene that appeared to show a black female robbing the bank. "But right now, we don't know if this is related."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Aug 26, 2009
British bobbies hunt burqa-clad bandit

Three "strikingly similar" robberies at jewelry store, travel agencies

Associated Press

LONDON - British police say they're on the trail of a burqa-clad bandit, or bandits, who robbed three different locations in the past two months.

Police said Tuesday that three armed men, one wearing a full-body veil, stole tens of thousands of pounds (dollars) worth of watches from a jewelers in Banbury, 80 miles (130 kilometers) northwest of London.

Monday's theft follows two incidents in which an assailant wearing a black burqa robbed travel agents in the English towns of Dunstable and Luton, both about 45 miles (70 kilometers) away.

The first robbery occurred in early July. Another occurred about a month later. Detective Constable Steve Guerin says police aren't sure whether there's a connection between the robberies, but they seem "strikingly similar."

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Jun 30, 2009
Police hunt burqa bandit

Louie Rosella

The Mississauga News

An armed man who was dressed in a burqa this afternoon when he robbed the Scotiabank at Applewood Village Plaza is being hunted by police.

Peel Regional Police say the man, disguised in the head-to-foot garment worn by women in some Islamic traditions, walked into the North Service Rd. bank just before 1:30 p.m. and indicated he had a gun. The butt-end of a revolver was seen by bank employees.

Police say the robber demanded cash from a teller and made off with an undisclosed amount of money.

He was last seen fleeing on foot with a woman. The two then got into a black Honda Civic and headed westbound, according to witnesses. The licence plate marker is believed to be BFKW 217.

Both culprits are described as East Indian, and the woman has long, black, curly hair. Anyone with information is asked to call police at 905-453-2121, ext. 3410.

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #13 - September 12, 2009, 08:53 PM

this article is a great article for banning the hijab in banks

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #14 - September 12, 2009, 09:40 PM

Again, there is no need to have the government ban the veil anywhere. If banks want to implement that policy, let them. If it helps, there could be a law protecting such institutions from litigation for religious discrimination on that particular basis. Right now, as far as I know, no state in the US has a law banning ski masks in banks, jewelers, gun shops, liquor or convenience stores-- most of these businesses simply prohibit it as store policy.

Why the hell are conservative Muslims doing business with banks that charge interest anyways?

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Re: Belgian schools ban Muslim veil in classes
Reply #15 - September 13, 2009, 01:44 AM

Quote from: atheist.pk on September 12, 2009, 03:17 PM
Women are not allowed to cover their faces when they are in the state of Ihram for Hajj/Ummrah.

You know for the most holiest of Islamic rituals, when the covering of face is not allowed in Hajj...why the hell do these people tell their women to cover their faces as well??

That's a very good point!!
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