Islam's texts have change over time

1« Previous thread | Next thread »
- Woodrow
- Member
- offline
Islam's texts have change over time
OP - December 16, 2009, 06:36 AM

http://frontpagemag.com/2009/12/14/the-yemeni-koran-by-jamie-glazov/

Texts found in Yemen seem to disprove the idea that the koran is the unaltered word of God.

"In a child's power to master the multiplication table, there is more sanctity than in all your shouted "amens" and "holy holies" and "hosannas." An idea is a greater monument than a cathedral. And the advance of man's knowledge is a greater miracle than all the sticks" - Henry Drummond
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #1 - December 16, 2009, 07:14 AM

Quote from: Nerzule on December 16, 2009, 06:36 AM
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/12/14/the-yemeni-koran-by-jamie-glazov/

Texts found in Yemen seem to disprove the idea that the koran is the unaltered word of God.

The problem is that what has been found is in a short hand lacking the vowels required; so you're still back at step one and reliant on the memorisers of the Qur'an.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #2 - December 16, 2009, 07:23 AM

how can people not be bothered by the fact that there were no vowels? some of the words could have several meanings, i guess the hafiz would know the correct words but still, it seems to go against that Allah has protected the book, and its inscribed in a tablet and preserved and so on and so on... but then they revert and go yes? but it still presvered, thanks to all the memorizers its now preserved in book you hold today, in the mushaf

seems odd because i was always taught the PRINTED word I see is the same as the words prophet said AND it was inscribed way back then and not like the gospels which the earlist was written 70 years AFTER the death of christ, oh no we muslims were much better because Allah made a promise

they keep moving the goal posts, very annoying
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #3 - December 16, 2009, 07:28 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 16, 2009, 07:23 AM
how can people not be bothered by the fact that there were no vowels? some of the words could have several meanings, i guess the hafiz would know the correct words but still...

Which means there is no 'genuine' Qur'an which one can compare the hafiz recitation against - hence, you're back to square one. We have no authentic, finalised version of Qur'an found so far - if you have 30 possible variations then of course there will be a cross over between what hafiz says and what is recorded.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #4 - December 16, 2009, 07:30 AM

yes very valid point but are there that many varations in printed qurans today? where can i find info on this?
- kaiwai
- Pub Regular
- Meh, could be worse
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #5 - December 16, 2009, 07:35 AM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 16, 2009, 07:30 AM
yes very valid point but are there that many varations in printed qurans today? where can i find info on this?

There are no variations because pretty much the Qur'an has been canonised.

When I hear Resa Azlan when he describes the process of how the Qur'an was developed, it was that of a man thinking about life and the Qur'an evolving in such a way.

The problem is that Muslims can't stand the idea that maybe the Qur'an isn't as sound and perfect as they believe - that the Qur'an is no more reliable than the tankh, New Testament or some other religious text.

About the only text one could argue can be traced directly back to the founder would probably be Sikhism.

"It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
- asif
- Member
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #6 - March 01, 2010, 03:57 PM

Kawai said About the only text one could argue can be traced directly back to the founder would probably be Sikhism.

The guru granth sahib did not exist in the time of guru nanak,the founder of sikhism.

"When one bright intellect meets another bright intellect, the light increases and the Way becomes clear -- Rumi
- King Koopa
- Ex-Muslim
- Your Mom's Favorite Lover
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #7 - March 01, 2010, 04:06 PM

asif are you an ex-sikh?
- Iblis
- Ex-Muslim
- betta rekognize
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #8 - March 01, 2010, 04:07 PM

lol, I doubt he is. I think he just hates them.

Quote from: thinkfree on September 28, 2010, 07:58 PM
Iblis has mad debaterin' skillz. Best not step up unless you're prepared to recieve da pain.
- TheRationalizer
- Pub Regular
- Gone - due to unfair moderation
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #9 - March 02, 2010, 11:55 AM

Quote from: Nerzule on December 16, 2009, 06:36 AM
http://frontpagemag.com/2009/12/14/the-yemeni-koran-by-jamie-glazov/

Texts found in Yemen seem to disprove the idea that the koran is the unaltered word of God.

Here are some other images:
http://www.unesco.org/webworld/mdm/visite/sanaa/en/present1.html

The argument is generally that you don't need vowels, Arabic newspapers don't print them either. The older scripts were missing diacritic dots too, that has a lot more implications however Muslims argue that the diacritic dots and vowel signs were added before the oral transmission became distorted.

There are hand made copies of these manuscripts available in one of the London museums. I have always been suspicious of the fact that they won't allow unobtrusive photographs and yet they allowed a more obtrusive manual copy be made.

I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
- awais
- Ex-Muslim
- mulhid taqwa
- offline
Re: Islam's texts have change over time
Reply #10 - March 02, 2010, 01:00 PM

Quote from: BlackDog on December 16, 2009, 07:30 AM
yes very valid point but are there that many varations in printed qurans today? where can i find info on this?

there is the famous '7 ahruf', but there are 10 qira'at, so whatevz.

"'Ulum al Qur'an" by Ahmed von Denffer is a good book, i borrowed it from the local masjid (surprised they had a book as cool as this), buying my own copy so i can return the masjid's

I thought that "Variant Readings of the Qur'an" by Ahmed Ali al-Imam would be cool, but I find it hard to read, tho it has very interesting bits in it.

Textual History of the Qur'an by Arthur Jeffery (Orientalist Extraordinaire)

http://www.answering-islam.org/Quran/Text/index.html

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/

I'd like to get my hands on this book, or something like it.

Arthur Jeffery IIRC was working on a reference Qur'an that would cite all the variants when + where they occurred, something I'm interested in.

hmmm... what else? i'd like to know

I chose to get circumcised at 17, don't tell me I never believed.
1« Previous thread | Next thread »