Skip navigation
Sidebar -

Advanced search options →

Welcome

Welcome to CEMB forum.
Please login or register. Did you miss your activation email?

Donations

Help keep the Forum going!
Click on Kitty to donate:

Kitty is lost

Recent Posts


اضواء على الطريق ....... ...
by akay
Yesterday at 01:32 PM

Lights on the way
by akay
Yesterday at 09:01 AM

Qur'anic studies today
by zeca
Yesterday at 08:53 AM

New Britain
November 29, 2024, 08:17 AM

Gaza assault
by zeca
November 27, 2024, 07:13 PM

What music are you listen...
by zeca
November 24, 2024, 06:05 PM

Do humans have needed kno...
November 22, 2024, 06:45 AM

Marcion and the introduct...
by zeca
November 19, 2024, 11:36 PM

Dutch elections
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 10:11 PM

Random Islamic History Po...
by zeca
November 15, 2024, 08:46 PM

AMRIKAAA Land of Free .....
November 07, 2024, 09:56 AM

The origins of Judaism
by zeca
November 02, 2024, 12:56 PM

Theme Changer

 Topic: The Koran began as a Christian book

 (Read 7845 times)
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     OP - April 03, 2011, 09:54 PM


    Sorry, it is quite long, but very interesting I think.
       
    Quote
    Morten Rydal | 31st March 2011

    The early beginning of the Koran is not to be found among Muslims in the Arabian peninsula, but among East Syrian Christian Arabs. This is the startling conclusion of research into the Muslim holy book.

    In all recent reference works on Islam, we read that the modern Koran, known as the Cairo edition of 1923 is almost similar to the revelation the Prophet Muhammad allegedly received in Mecca and Medina more than 1300 years ago. It is admitted that the process may have been slightly longer, but the idea that the Koran has remained largely the same since the 7th century, is not disputed.

    New Koranic research, which is currently taking place, mainly in Germany, now shows entirely new ways of understanding the Qur'an genesis.

    The new understanding of the Koran took a decisive leap with the discovery of a large quantity of ancient Koranic manuscripts in a cavity in the mosque in Sana. These manuscripts have proved to preesent different text versions compared to the Cairo Koran. Several are in fact so called  palimpsests, i.e. manuscripts from which the original text or part of it has been scraped off and a new text written on top of the old one.
    At some point in history an old Koranic text has been deleted and rewritten. When you write with ink on thin skin, the ink sinks deep into the leather, and even if one scratches the skin carefully, there will still be a shadow left. Scientists could "recall" the scraped away text and thus in several cases were presented with yet another deviant text in relation to the Cairo Koran. The ancient manuscripts made it obvious that the Quran has not been preserved unchanged from the 7th century. It has through the centuries been subject to countless amendments.

    Parallel to the study of ancient manuscripts researchers have also studied the text in the Cairo Koran. This text is in places exceedingly difficult. Even Muslim scholars speak of "obscure places". Moreover, the language is an Arab, which actually only occurs precisely in the Koran.

    The traditional Muslim explanation for this is,that it is obviously an example of Allah's perfect Arabic, which we humans may one day be able to learn. The German philologist Christoph Luxenberg (pseudonym), however, had a theory: Could it be that the language of the Koran´s oldest parts, the "Meccan suras", could be read in Aramaic, which was the international language of the region in the 7th century?

    This is entirely possible, since both Aramaic and Arabic are Semitic languages, where you only write the consonants. The vowels "are derived from the context. Luxenberg undertook a pioneering study of all the "obscure places" and it turned out that the original wording read as Aramaic, suddenly had meaning.

    A case in point: We hear in the media that the young suicide terrorists dream of becoming martyrs, because they will be rewarded in paradise with 72 black-eyed virgins. This is based among others things on the "obscure" Sura 44, 54, which states: "And we give them virgins with large black eyes for marriage" Luxenberg read, however: "Under white crystal clear grapes we will make it comfortable for them." In other words: In Paradise they don´t get young virgins, but grapes, just like in the Judeo-Christian paradise where the tree of life is a vine.

    THIS IS JUST AN EXAMPLE, but all the "obscure places" showed the same trend. Luxenberg concluded: Parts of the Koran, mainly the oldest, consists of an original Aramaic text collection with evident Christian character, it may even be a kind old Syrian Bible commentary. The Koran must have evolved through a long and complex process where the oldest parts were written, rewritten and vocalized in  Arabic. The Koran, we know today existed only as a finished book at a much later date, at the earliest about the end of the 9th century, when Islam had become an independent religion.

    Luxenberg's discovery is apparently contradicted, however, by a something outside of the Koran. In the famous Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem there is a frieze with what we believe is a sort of mosaic of Koranic quotations. The Dome of the Rock was built in 694 AD, and the Koran therefore must have been finished, written and known at this time. Anyway that is how the argument goes in the  traditional descriptions of the Koranic history.

    Luxenberg also tested his reading method on the frieze, and the result was again surprising: The frieze is - read in Aramaic - a heretical-Christian creed, opposing the Byzantine church´s trinity dogma. The message reads : God is one, and Jesus Christ is his servant. The Dome of the Rock in Jerusalem, in other words, is not a mosque but originally built as a church!

    Luxenberg's findings are confirmed by other historical-critical studies. The German research group has shown in articles passages that agree with the reasoning in the Church father Lactantius' main scripture "institutions". They have also found Jewish, Buddhist, Zoroastrian, Manichaean and mandaean thought material. All of it features, that not only points to a long, complicated process of creation, but also suggests a completely different geographic location for the Koran's early history.

    THE NEW GERMAN KORAN RESEARCH is strictly scientific. The Circle of researchers counts among others philologists, numismatics, archaeologists, theologians, religious historians and experts in Aramaic and Arabic languages. As researchers, they insist on using only safe, verifiable historical sources. This means for example that they cannot use the much later Islamic historiography as a source to the Koranic history.

    This almost changes the picture completely: The early beginnings of the Koran are not to be found among believing Muslims in the Arabian peninsula, but among EastSyrian Christian Arabs in and around the city Merw (mentioned in the Koran surah 2, 158) in the current southern Turkmenistan, where there lived Christians of East Syrian origin, who had not accepted the dogma of God's trinity.

    They thought they stood for a more correct Bible interpretation: God is one, and Jesus Christ is his servant. They knew nothing about Muhammad. MHMD consonants that appear in the Koran meant in Aramaic "the praised", i.e. Jesus.

    When Merws ruler al-Malik about the end of the 7th century went west, what we know as Islam's conquest began, but in reality it was an Arab heretical Christian conquest spree.

    Over time, the Arabs distanced themselves more and more from Christianity. The Consonants MHMD became the Prophet Mohammed and Islam emerged with the Koran as we know it today. The Koran is in other words, a human construction, not a divine revelation. The traditional view of the Koran as Muhammad´s immutable revelation is not sustainable. When all historical research imposes stringent requirements for documentation and secure, verifiable sources, the Koranic research and research into the history of Islam cannot be exempted from  these requirements.

    The sources of the Koran's early history are not secure, and the sources that we actually have from the time, tell a different story. No one has yet managed to rebut this new Koranic research with factual arguments. In fact, the researchers - not least among university colleagues - have been greeted with ridicule, arbitrary accusations of being unscientific, accusations of "Islamophobia" or with deafening silence. The latter is apparently the case in Denmark.

    If this is known in the scientific community here in Denmark, why do we hear nothing about it? The new Koranic research is dynamite, but this is no excuse for not evaluating its results. In my view it may have far reaching consequences. Could this new research not be seen as a helping hand to Muslims and non-Muslims to rid themselves of the old rigid positions and a petrified view of the scriptures?

    Morten Rydal is a vicar



    http://www.kristeligt-dagblad.dk/artikel/413867:Kronik--KRONIK--Koranen-begyndte-som-en-kristen-bog?all=1

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #1 - April 03, 2011, 10:29 PM

    Thanks-- did you translate all of that?
  • Re: The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #2 - April 03, 2011, 10:31 PM


    Google helped me  grin12

    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #3 - April 04, 2011, 06:14 PM

    It is an impressive service.
    I like these Danish articles , please continue to share.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #4 - June 28, 2014, 06:57 AM

    Interesting.

    `But I don't want to go among mad people,' Alice remarked.
     `Oh, you can't help that,' said the Cat: `we're all mad here. I'm mad.  You're mad.'
     `How do you know I'm mad?' said Alice.
     `You must be,' said the Cat, `or you wouldn't have come here.'
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #5 - June 28, 2014, 09:33 AM

    Very interesting stuff! Thanks for the translation.

    Mohammed was Jesus messed around a lot with.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #6 - June 28, 2014, 10:25 AM

    That is interesting as i was watching this islamic docu recently and the western historians believed that the early parts of the quran were constructed in Syria too, they said the evidence is in the description of the terrain described in the quran, such landscape is not seen in mecca or medina, only syria or the near east.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #7 - June 28, 2014, 10:32 AM

    Very interesting stuff! Thanks for the translation.

    Mohammed was Jesus messed around a lot with.

    No..No...nOOO .,

    Muhammad was not Jesus or Jesus character.,  Muhammad Characters of early Islam changed with time., and some of these rogues were Real..

    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #8 - June 28, 2014, 10:45 AM

    That is interesting as i was watching this islamic docu recently and the western historians believed that the early parts of the quran were constructed in Syria too, they said the evidence is in the description of the terrain described in the quran, such landscape is not seen in mecca or medina, only syria or the near east.


    Please reference or link the documentary.

    Thanks.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #9 - June 28, 2014, 10:53 AM

    This is very interesting. I would love to see this line of research develop further.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #10 - June 28, 2014, 10:59 AM

    Please reference or link the documentary.

    Thanks.


    Wasn't that the Tom Holland one?
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #11 - June 28, 2014, 01:03 PM

    Please reference or link the documentary.

    Thanks.


    I can't remember the name, it was on discovery channel, i shall have a search around tonight..

    X
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #12 - June 28, 2014, 01:33 PM


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXCSATYVGBA


    Do not let silence become your legacy.. Question everything   
    I renounced my faith to become a kafir, 
    the beloved betrayed me and turned in to  a Muslim
     
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #13 - June 28, 2014, 02:14 PM

    Please reference or link the documentary.

    Thanks.



    Hi, yes it was Tom Holland, somewhere in there he mentions syria

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2sCIZPOeJ8&feature=share&list=PLhzUZTAViWmA_AD8bVCuUHGtTrm6YSCww


    lot's of responses to the film:

    http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=tom+holland+islam+untold+story
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #14 - June 28, 2014, 02:48 PM

    Yes he did mention Syria cause the descriptions of the place around Mecca or Medina didn't correlate with either modern day of historic conditions around the sites in Saudi as is not fertile with olive trees. I was watching a documentary about Egypt at Christmas and there was a place there called Madinah (not saying it was the place or anything) but just saying it isn't a single place with that name, there are many.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #15 - June 28, 2014, 02:57 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_el-Medina

    Here is the place.

    Apparently it means "the monastery of the town". Does Medina mean monastery?
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #16 - June 28, 2014, 03:01 PM

    Quote
    Origin of the Qur’an
    But what of the Qur’an itself? That did not exist in writing in the time of Muhammad but was said to have been orally transmitted for some time before it was set in ink. The Qur’an itself (at least material evidence for its existence), like the name of Muhammad on coins, was a latecomer.

    And where did the Qur’an originate? It was supposed to be from Mecca, according to legend. The story goes that Muhammad was in debate with degenerate pagans who knew nothing of monotheism or “godly morality”. But the Qur’an’s arguments are in dialogue with people who know about farming in rich, fertile regions, cattle-raising, vine-dressing, and so on. That’s not the setting of Mecca. Mecca has no water supply. Moreover, the dialogues are with people who clearly already know about Jewish and Christian theology and persons, such as Yahweh and Jesus. Again, this is not the setting of a benighted pagan community.


    Why Mecca?
    So what of Mecca? (Holland compares it with Camelot — a place that “floats around” with various places laying claim to it until it is finally settled . . . .)

    Mecca is not mentioned in any texts until 741 (a century after Muhammad) — again another oddity “if it was, indeed, the Dubai of the ancient world” as is so often implied in the Qur’an.

    Why did Mecca, when it finally appears, emerge in the desert? Just as Mary had to be a virgin to avoid any possibility that Jesus had a human origin, so the Qur’an had to emerge in the purity of the desert where it could not have been contaminated with any other religious idea. Thus is denied its (probable?) origin from Christian and Jewish heresies.


    Ofcourse muslims will argue that fertile lands are mentioned in the quran because early muslims travelled to the near east for trade etc..
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #17 - June 28, 2014, 03:13 PM

    Therefore you should see which way the weighting lies and if it lies with the debate with the Christians and the Jews and also fertile lands then it most probably came from further north. 
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #18 - June 28, 2014, 04:31 PM

    This topic was discussed on the forum about two years ago, until further research is done Im not sure what to make of it.

    Quote
    http://If this is known in the scientific community here in Denmark, why do we hear nothing about it? The new Koranic research is dynamite, but this is no excuse for not evaluating its results. In my view it may have far reaching consequences. Could this new research not be seen as a helping hand to Muslims and non-Muslims to rid themselves of the old rigid positions and a petrified view of the scriptures?

    Morten Rydal is a vicar

    There is this belief that the problem is that if muslims accept that the quran is not the literal word of God, then the problems you see in the islamic world would be solved. But stoning, killing people for blasphemy, death for apostasy and the interpretation of the quran that arises that strengthens parts that favor aggressive wars and harsh implementation Sharia are all in the hadith, very often hadiths in which a sahabi describes the actions of the prophet.
    At the same time an overwhelming or a strong majority of American Christians believe that the bible is the literal word God, and I would presume this would be more true for South America. Maybe doubt will arise from such findings, but not necessarily muslims accepting flaws in the quran.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #19 - June 28, 2014, 04:59 PM

    At the same time an overwhelming or a strong majority of American Christians believe that the bible is the literal word God, and I would presume this would be more true for South America.

    Unwise assumption.

    Even if true, Latin Americans don't tend to be religious loons, so it wouldn't really matter.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #20 - June 28, 2014, 05:10 PM

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deir_el-Medina

    Here is the place.

    Apparently it means "the monastery of the town". Does Medina mean monastery?


    It always referred to the town centre where I come from in Morocco.  So we would often go to the medina to chill in the cafes, eat food, shop etc.

    There is also what used to be a monastery there, but I never knew there was a connection to the word medina. Learn something new everyday.

    Inhale the good shit, exhale the bullshit.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #21 - June 28, 2014, 05:28 PM

    So given that the Medina if it is mentioned in the Qu'ran could potentially refer to any religious (Christian or cult of Jesus) centre anywhere. Are there any other places called Mecca anywhere?
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #22 - June 28, 2014, 06:10 PM

    Well, there's a reference to Bakkah in the qur'an. I don't know if that is a misspelling in the oh-so-perfect holy  book, an old name for Makkah, or a completely different place.

    As for Medina - it just means city, I think. Same as the reference to 'Midian' in the Bible.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #23 - June 28, 2014, 06:17 PM

    Well, there's a reference to Bakkah in the qur'an. I don't know if that is a misspelling in the oh-so-perfect holy  book, an old name for Makkah, or a completely different place.

    As for Medina - it just means city, I think. Same as the reference to 'Midian' in the Bible.


    Does Deir mean monastery?

    And according to the ever loved academic source Wikipedia Bakkah doesn't refer to Mecca just to the area of worship.

    Quote
    Bakkah (Arabic: بكة‎) is an ancient name for Mecca, the most holy city of Islam.[1] Most people believe they are synonyms, but to Muslim scholars there is a distinction: Bakkah refers to the Kaaba and the sacred site immediately surrounding it, while Mecca is the name of the city in which they are both located.[2]

    According to Lisan Al Arab of Ibn Manzor, the site of Kaaba and its surroundings was named Bakkah due to crowding and congestion of people in the area. The Arabic verb bakka (بكَّ), with double "k", means to crowd like in a bazaar. This is not to be confused with another unrelated Arabic verb baka (بَكَى)(single k) which is the past participle of yabki (يَبْكِي), to cry.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bakkah

    Bakkah could therefore relate to the religious site in the middle of Mecca or any religious site where there was crowding and congestion.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #24 - June 28, 2014, 06:20 PM

    Quote
    The Valley of Baca is mentioned in Psalm 84 of the Bible in the following passage:

    How lovely is Your dwelling-place, O Lord of Hosts. I long, I yearn for the courts of the Lord; my body and soul shout for joy to the living God ... Happy are those who dwell in Your house; they forever praise You. Happy is the man who finds refuge in You, whose mind is on the [pilgrim] highways. They pass through the Valley of Baca, regarding it as a place of springs, as if the early rain had covered it with blessing ... Better one day in Your courts than a thousand [anywhere else]; I would rather stand at the threshold of God's house than dwell in the tents of the wicked[9]

    The original Hebrew language phrase for the Valley of Baca is emeq ha-Baka.[15][16][17] It can also be translated as "Valley of the Balsam Tree" or "Valley of the Weeper".[15][16] This otherwise unidentified valley has been connected to Bakkah by Islamic writers.[9]


    Interesting too!
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #25 - June 28, 2014, 07:39 PM

    Unwise assumption.

    Even if true, Latin Americans don't tend to be religious loons, so it wouldn't really matter.

    My point is that belief in that the bible is literal word of God, doesn't necessarily lead to theocracy. Even if not true for people in latin america it would be true for United States. At the same time, muslims believe in hadith which are very often descriptions by sahaba, of actions and sayings of the prophet., and yet the hadith are source for the worst things in Islamic law and its the hadith that skews interpretation of quran in an even worse way.
  • The Koran began as a Christian book
     Reply #26 - June 30, 2014, 09:55 PM

    This is an interesting theory that, in my view, is greatly overstated and yet partially true -- some parts of the Qur'an really do reflect Aramaic Christian theology, semantics, and grammar.  Luxenberg gets a lot of these very wrong.  HOWEVER, he also gets a lot of things right, in very surprising ways.  Here are my three favorite academic articles on recent research into the "Syriac" basis for some of the surahs.  First is a terrific analysis of Luxenberg's work by a prominent Syriac expert:

    http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/share/research/centres/clarc/jlarc/contents/King%20A%20Christian%20Qur%27an.pdf

    Second, here is a wonderful article by Guillaume Dye, talking about the Syriac/Aramaic substrate of the Qur'an.

    http://www.academia.edu/4730102/Traces_of_Bilingualism_Multilingualism_in_Quranic_Arabic

    Finally, yet another delightful article, this time by Fred Donner rather dramatically showing how the Qur'anic term "Furqan" is actually garbled Syriac that was not correctly transcribed and was no longer correctly understood by Muslims who were reading the Qur'an much later.

    http://www.academia.edu/1013511/Quranic_Furqan

    I have read most of the available literature on the subject, and I think these are the three best articles out there ... they will give you a real flavor for how academia has treated this hypothesis.  At first there were howls of outrage and disbelief against Luxenberg, combined with bitter criticisms against his methodology (many of which were accurate!).  Then as Luxenberg kept pushing forward, many scholars came to actually agree that he had found several points of value, and other scholars have started pushing a modified version of the hypothesis.
  • 1« Previous thread | Next thread »