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Theme Changer

 Topic: A mission statement

 (Read 20882 times)
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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #60 - April 29, 2010, 02:46 PM

    Check this out: http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=6489.0

    http://www.apple.com/ilife/imovie/
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #61 - April 29, 2010, 02:57 PM

    Thanks. Smiley
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #62 - April 29, 2010, 03:08 PM

    ....regarding Quran, i do not pick and choose, rather i interpret using a compassionate and non-suspicous heart - the way i believe we are supposed to read the Quran. in addition rather than concentrating on single verses i try and take the Quran as a whole to interpret the individual verses - this is a well accepted method from some scholars on the correct way to interpret the Quran.....


    Dear Abuyunus, what make you think that the Quran you are reading is the same Quran that Mohamed revealed to his followers? What if Othman et al have added and substracted as they saw fit. Do you know the story about Abdullah Bin Saad Bin Abi Sarh and who he was? He was the foster brother of Othman the 3rd Calif. He was also one of the writers of the revalation. According to Baidawi in Tafsir “Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta'wil”, Muhammad dictated verses starting at (Qur'an 23:12) that says;

        "We created man of an extraction of clay" and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14)",

    Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." Abdallah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said.". After this incident, Abdullah repudiated Islam, left Medina and went to Mecca, spreading his belief that Muhammad composed the Qur'an himself without divine intervention.

    Following the conquest of Mekkah in 629 CE, Muhammad ordered that Abdullah should be executed but Uthman protected him. When conditions calmed, he was presented to Muhammad seeking pardon and offering the oath of loyalty. However, Muhammad withheld his hand and maintained silence. Uthman begged him to pardon Abdullah and on the third attempt Muhammad accepted Abdullah's oath of loyalty, effectively pardoning him.

    Nevertheless, as soon as Abdullah had left, Muhammad turned to the Muslims who were in the room and asked: “Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?” The companions, aghast, responded: “We did not know what you had in your heart, Apostle of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye?” Muhammad said: “It is not advisable, for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes.”

    Anyways, if this was the Quran collector's brother whome he apointed ruler on Eygpt and obviously though highly of him, what makes you sure that they together did not write and added new verses and hence the division between Shiit and Sunis and all the accusation of Quran corruption could be explained. What do you think?

    .......why do i still have faith?? i don't think it's pascals wager - i'm sure it's something much deeper than that. there are things that don't sit well with me i.e hell, creation of evil etc. - but i fully embrace the fact that i probably do not understand God's plan - he must have a good reason - that's what faith is all about. i truly beleive in my heart that all humans have a soul - we are more than just the product of evolution - this soul must have come from God - and since i use it to guide my morals it it doesn't make sense to  me to judge God as being immoral using the soul He Himself gave me....


    Which God Abuyunus you are refering to? Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Eygptian, Mayan, Greek? What makes you "know" that Allah is the true God, if any? What if you were born Christian, would you have converted to Islam?

    Thanks in advance for answering!  Afro

    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #63 - April 29, 2010, 03:53 PM

    nicely done

    [13:36] <Fimbles> anything above 7 inches
    [13:37] <Fimbles> is wacko
    [13:37] <Fimbles> see
    [13:37] <Fimbles> you think i'd enjoy anything above 7 inches up my arse?
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #64 - April 29, 2010, 11:05 PM

    Dear Abuyunus, what make you think that the Quran you are reading is the same Quran that Mohamed revealed to his followers? What if Othman et al have added and substracted as they saw fit. Do you know the story about Abdullah Bin Saad Bin Abi Sarh and who he was? He was the foster brother of Othman the 3rd Calif. He was also one of the writers of the revalation. According to Baidawi in Tafsir “Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta'wil”, Muhammad dictated verses starting at (Qur'an 23:12) that says;

        "We created man of an extraction of clay" and when Muhammad reached the part that says, "... thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14)",

    Abdullah said, "So blessed be God the fairest of creators!" in amazement at the details of man's creation. The prophet said, "Write it down; for thus it has been revealed." Abdallah doubted and said, "If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said.". After this incident, Abdullah repudiated Islam, left Medina and went to Mecca, spreading his belief that Muhammad composed the Qur'an himself without divine intervention.

    Following the conquest of Mekkah in 629 CE, Muhammad ordered that Abdullah should be executed but Uthman protected him. When conditions calmed, he was presented to Muhammad seeking pardon and offering the oath of loyalty. However, Muhammad withheld his hand and maintained silence. Uthman begged him to pardon Abdullah and on the third attempt Muhammad accepted Abdullah's oath of loyalty, effectively pardoning him.

    Nevertheless, as soon as Abdullah had left, Muhammad turned to the Muslims who were in the room and asked: “Was not there a wise man among you who would stand up to him when he saw that I had withheld my hand from accepting his allegiance, and kill him?” The companions, aghast, responded: “We did not know what you had in your heart, Apostle of Allah! Why did you not give us a signal with your eye?” Muhammad said: “It is not advisable, for a Prophet to play deceptive tricks with the eyes.”

    Anyways, if this was the Quran collector's brother whome he apointed ruler on Eygpt and obviously though highly of him, what makes you sure that they together did not write and added new verses and hence the division between Shiit and Sunis and all the accusation of Quran corruption could be explained. What do you think?

    Which God Abuyunus you are refering to? Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Eygptian, Mayan, Greek? What makes you "know" that Allah is the true God, if any? What if you were born Christian, would you have converted to Islam?

    Thanks in advance for answering!  Afro


    AbuYunus, I am not sure if you read my post or not. Please comment. I really look forward to hearing what you have to say!  Afro

    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #65 - April 29, 2010, 11:07 PM

    hey ribs, good to see you back. since i doubt the accuracy of all hadith I also never give too much credit to stories regarding the prophet and how quran was compiled etc. from a more professional perspective it is not possible to know for sure how exactly the Quran was compiled. but let'sjust say that although i can't be sure that i don't feel that othman and his peers did some editing.

    my interpretation of islam i admit is not orthodox. 'Muslim' simply means a 'submitter to God's will'. In my interpretation of Quran, whether a person is christian, jewish or a follower of the quran, then that person is a beleiver. in fact you do not even have to follow any of these three religions to be a beleiver -  all you have to do is beleive in the one true God (i.e. the God that created everything) and beleive in his judgement. my interpretation is based on two verses:

    “Those who believe (in the Qur’an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.”

    2:62


    ‘’Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in God and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.’’

    5:69
     

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #66 - April 29, 2010, 11:19 PM

    so why do you bother with halal food then?

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #67 - April 29, 2010, 11:24 PM

    .....whether a person is christian, jewish or a follower of the quran, then that person is a beleiver. in fact you do not even have to follow any of these three religions to be a beleiver -  all you have to do is beleive in the one true God (i.e. the God that created everything) and beleive in his judgement.....


    I am afraid Quran says that Only Islam is accpted by Allah...

    Quote from: Sura 3, Verse 19
    Surely the (true) religion with Allah is Islam, and those to whom the Book had been given did not show opposition but after knowledge had come to them, out of envy among themselves; and whoever disbelieves in the communications of Allah then surely Allah is quick in reckoning. (19)


    And this one...

    Quote from: Sura 3, Verse 85
    And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers. (85)




    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #68 - April 29, 2010, 11:32 PM

    islam simply means 'submission'. In addition i beleive that whereas some verses of Quran are eternal, others were only meant for people who interacted with the Prophet 1400 years ago

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #69 - April 29, 2010, 11:33 PM

    how can you not see that your stance is like a bucket full of holes?

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #70 - April 29, 2010, 11:34 PM

    Abuyunus, also in the Quran it is mandatory that Muslims follow what ever the Apostle says... The problem is how do we know without hadeath, what he really want us to do?

    Quote from: Sura 4, Verse 13-14
    These are Allah's limits, and whoever obeys Allah and His Apostle, He will cause him to enter gardens beneath which rivers flow, to abide in them; and this is the great achievement. (13) And whoever disobeys Allah and His Apostle and goes beyond His limits, He will cause him to enter fire to abide in it, and he shall have an abasing chastisement. (14)


    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #71 - April 29, 2010, 11:39 PM

    i always felt those verses were aimed at the Prophet's companions 1400 years ago

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #72 - April 29, 2010, 11:41 PM

    i always felt those verses were aimed at the Prophet's companions 1400 years ago


    No AbuYunus, I am afraid you felt wrong. In the Muslim faith, the Quran is devine and heavenly and has no mistakes and it is for all times. If you say otherwise, then you are not a Muslim. That simple.

    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #73 - April 29, 2010, 11:42 PM

    i always felt those verses were aimed at the Prophet's companions 1400 years ago

    how do you know what was for 1400 years ago, and what is for now?  How about prohibition of alcohol, halal food, circumcision?  Are they for then or for now?  How do you decide, or is the book not clear on that?

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #74 - April 29, 2010, 11:48 PM

    Abuyunus, again please, why Allah loves playing hide and seek? Why he does not give us a sign? A real sign? Unless he does not want us to believe that he exist. Why send prophets? If prophets can hear Gibril the angel, why cant we all hear him? What is the purpose of the tease?  Huh?

    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #75 - April 29, 2010, 11:48 PM

    i beleive the Quran is divine and has no mistakes, but i do not beleive all verses of the Quran are meant to be for all times - there are even specific verses that relate to specific personal situations the Prophet had at the time. my stance as a Muslim is as valid as any other.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #76 - April 29, 2010, 11:52 PM

    i beleive the Quran is divine and has no mistakes, but i do not beleive all verses of the Quran are meant to be for all times - there are even specific verses that relate to specific personal situations the Prophet had at the time. my stance as a Muslim is as valid as any other.

    Yes, its as valid as people who wish to believe in a celestial teapot flying in the sky.  Apologies if I come across as intolerant.  

    Admittedly I am intolerant towards false ideologies but not towards the people who imo mistakenly hold these beliefs.

    Please answer the question, do you believe the quran is mubeen for people who live now?  If so, how do we know if we are still not to eat halal, drink or circumsize? Does it say anywhere it is open to interpretation?

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #77 - April 30, 2010, 12:55 AM

    Abuyunus, why did Allah decide that Mohammed would be his last prophet? what do you feel is the reason for that? why doesn't he send a new prophet every decade, century, or millennium?
    I am not asking you to speak on behalf of Allah. I am just asking what you personally believe is the reason for this intentional nonappearance.  Smiley
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #78 - April 30, 2010, 06:05 AM

    Abuyunus, again please, why Allah loves playing hide and seek? Why he does not give us a sign? A real sign? Unless he does not want us to believe that he exist. Why send prophets? If prophets can hear Gibril the angel, why cant we all hear him? What is the purpose of the tease?  Huh?


    Good question Iraqi..... and this ^^ ? Please Abuyunus, answer anything but the usual Muslims "I don't know Allah's plan".

    ...
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #79 - April 30, 2010, 10:41 AM

    Abuyunus, I think your interpretation is not only unorthodox, but simply wrong.

    Just read chapter 98:

    Quote from: Yusuf Ali
    98:1: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, were not going to depart (from their ways) until there should come to them Clear Evidence (Koran),-
    2: A messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy:
    3: Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.
    4: Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence.
    5: And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
    6: Those who reject (Truth), among the People of the Book and among the Polytheists, will be in Hell-Fire, to dwell therein (for aye). They are the worst of creatures.
    7: Those who have faith and do righteous deeds,- they are the best of creatures.
    8: Their reward is with Allah: Gardens of Eternity, beneath which rivers flow; they will dwell therein for ever; Allah well pleased with them, and they with Him: all this for such as fear their Lord and Cherisher.


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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #80 - April 30, 2010, 10:51 AM

    Good question Iraqi..... and this ^^ ? Please Abuyunus, answer anything but the usual Muslims "I don't know Allah's plan".


    But he (and I don't mean to single out Abuyunus, this applies to a large number of believers of all religions) have nothing else but that they have 'faith' and 'trust' in Allah that there is a reason for everything.

    At the end of the day its a denial of agency and responsibility. If they can't relegate that to a comfortable box called 'Because Allah Makes It So and We Are Not To Question Him' (also know as 'Denial'), they would have to face up to the true horror of what this God is actually all about. Lets leave aside the perennial question of why he kills children in earthquakes in Haiti, why women die in childbirth, why tsunamis killed women, babies, men and children.

    Even a basic, clear appreciation of what this god says, advocates and enacts gives a plain picture of an insecure, narcissistic, sadistic, torturing, cruel, tyrannical, hateful, bigoted, petty, repulsive being.

    It takes some spine and bravery to face up to that truth, reject all that you have been brainwashed and conditioned and groomed into thinking by your family, with all the allegiances of community that this belief in this 'God' entails, and come to the truth that you have been made a fool of by agents of a fucked up, cruel, son-of-a-bitch deity in the sky.

    So of course, what else can anyone say in the face of that numbing truth, but, 'Because Allah makes it so, and it is not for us to question why'


    "we can smell traitors and country haters"


    God is Love.
    Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.

  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #81 - April 30, 2010, 10:57 AM

    ..come to the truth that you have been made a fool of by agents of a fucked up, cruel, son-of-a-bitch deity in the sky.

    So of course, what else can anyone say in the face of that numbing truth, but, 'Because Allah makes it so, and it is not for us to question why'


    and this is how it has continued to remain unchallenged to this day.  AbuY is now grooming his next generation to remain in this cognitive dissonance. 

    Good luck, I know you will succeed just like every generation before you  Afro

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #82 - April 30, 2010, 11:30 AM

    here we go with the brainwashing/indoctrination nonsense again. i don't know about you guys but when people generally reach the age of 18ish they start thinking for themselves - people have a wonderful tendency to do this (in fact i became an atheist for a couple of years when I was 18). it would also be practically quite conveniant for me to become an atheist/agnostic or whatever and renounce islam again. the reason i beleive is because i have faith - not because i feel a duty to community, race or religion or whatever.

    it is true that children are taught about religion from an early age - but it's quite silly to think they become brainwashed by it to the extent they can not question whether it is right or not. The vast majority of Muslims do question islam, the reason they remain Muslims is becaue they have faith. Muslims are normal people - they question, they criticize, they change, they grow - we are not robots who have been programmed to follow islam. in addition many people convert to islam and they haven't been 'brainwashed/indoctrinated' with anything.

    if an apostate feels he has been brave by renouncing islam, good on him/her. but please don't make the mistake in thinking that a person is only still a muslim because he/she lacks the courage to renounce islam - this is very narrow minded. i have also come across comments such as all muslims or people who convert to islam must have low self-esteem (yes you billy), again very silly and narrow minded.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #83 - April 30, 2010, 11:32 AM

    Abuyunus, I think your interpretation is not only unorthodox, but simply wrong.

    Just read chapter 98:



    hey aziz,

    especially given the context of which this verse is found i would also say this verse was meant for those who heard the word of the Prophet 1400 years ago

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #84 - April 30, 2010, 11:33 AM

    Yes, its as valid as people who wish to believe in a celestial teapot flying in the sky.  


    you dawkinist you  Afro

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #85 - April 30, 2010, 11:41 AM

    hey aziz,

    especially given the context of which this verse is found i would also say this verse was meant for those who heard the word of the Prophet 1400 years ago

    So the Qur'an is not Clear Evidence for all times and all places?

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  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #86 - April 30, 2010, 11:42 AM

    Abuyunus, I think your interpretation is not only unorthodox, but simply wrong.

    Just read chapter 98:


    Interesting, I'm just reading 'The Qu'ran' translated by Muhammad Zafrulla Khan, Chapter 98, and it is quite confusing as to the exact nature of what is being said. There is the joining sentence of:

    "Verily, those who disbelieve from among the people of the book and the idolaters will be in the fire of hell, abiding therein"

    Which is confusing; how can it be understood? is the Qu'ran saying that the people of the book are disbelievers along with idolaters and thus sent to the fires of hell? That there are some people who call themselves 'people of the book' who are hypocrites (don't believe) and will end up in the fires of hell with idolators? it seems that for an all knowing being the explanation is as about as clear as mud.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #87 - April 30, 2010, 11:54 AM

    So the Qur'an is not Clear Evidence for all times and all places?


    in general it is - but it's also quite clear that there are certain verses that relate only to the situation at hand 1400 years ago. there are even some practical examples of this - for example the way the companions of the Prophet were asked to behave when they entered his house for food.

    ''we are morally and philisophically in the best position to win the league'' - Arsene Wenger
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #88 - April 30, 2010, 11:57 AM

    in general it is - but it's also quite clear that there are certain verses that relate only to the situation at hand 1400 years ago. there are even some practical examples of this - for example the way the companions of the Prophet were asked to behave when they entered his house for food.


    Not to give Muhammad's wives a nipple-gripple? But in all honestly, please explain Chapter 98 because its a mind fuck for me.

    "It's just a job. Grass grows, birds fly, waves pound the sand. I beat people up." - Muhammad Ali
  • Re: A mission statement
     Reply #89 - April 30, 2010, 11:58 AM

    So is circumcision, wife-beating, bigamy, halal food & alchohol prohibilition for all time, or just then?

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