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Theme Changer

 Topic: Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"

 (Read 313084 times)
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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1320 - August 13, 2014, 11:15 PM

    Abu Ali, it's been long overdue but thanks a lot for your stellar efforts mate!  I really appreciate it. I was intrigued by the following passage:

    Quote
    So for this reason Muslim scholars were divided about how to deal with the use of Saj' in the Qur'an. Some of them denied there was any Saj' in the Qur'an at all. The main proponents of this view were Al-Rummani*, al-Baqillani and his teacher Imam Abu Musa al-Ash'ari and the rest of the Ash'aris, as well others. They laid down rules, definitions, and conditions about what constitutes saj' so as to protect the Qur'an from being accused of containing saj'.


    No doubt that the rules of grammar were created to circumvent the discrepencies identified within the Koran and thus provide the illusion of coherence , however do you know of the books (sources) that the author may have referred to when he identified the above scholars as manipulating the definition of saj. If I have misunderstood any of the points then please correct me.

    Thanks a lot!  Afro

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1321 - August 13, 2014, 11:23 PM

    Yes indeed.

    I am finding that this book is making me very confident in critiquing the Qur'an by echoing many of my own thoughts - and so confirming them - and pinpointing things that I either was unsure of or unaware of (and that make me go, Yesssss!).

    The Qur'an is long overdue a truly critical analysis - I hope this book is read widely.

    It really brings it home how "human" the Qur'an is and destroys the illusion of infallibility utterly.


    100%. It's like the opposite of an imaan boost to read this stuff and have the Qur'ans weaknesses bared for everyone to see. And his style is so straightforward and non-confrontational that all you can do is let it sink in or get angry and pout away.

    May the universe somehow conspire to bring you good for translating this. Smiley
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1322 - August 13, 2014, 11:25 PM

    Abu Ali, it's been long overdue but thanks a lot for your stellar efforts mate!  I really appreciate it. I was intrigued by the following passage:

    No doubt that the rules of grammar were created to circumvent the discrepencies identified within the Koran and thus provide the illusion of coherence , however do you know of the books (sources) that the author may have referred to when he identified the above scholars as manipulating the definition of saj. If I have misunderstood any of the points then please correct me.

    Thanks a lot!  Afro


    The author mentions some books - and scholars - where opinions differed. One he has mentioned a few times is a book by Badawi "This History of Disbelief in Islam" which I myself havn't read yet but looks excellent. But it's only in Arabic. In the next piece he will talk about differing views.

    Check the PDF of what's been translated there are some books mentioned in the footnotes.

    They all tend to be in Arabic.

    Having said all that, anyone who has read the Qur'an can be aware of some of the problems with it - if not for the rose coloured spectacles of faith. Once you lose those, you see the Qur'an differently.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1323 - August 13, 2014, 11:35 PM

    Abu Ali, if I'm being honest with you it's not that straight forward. I've read the Koran in Arabic and English and in no way would I be able to identify the stylistic features or lack thereof in the Koran in the same way that you can. I wish I could because it's a fascinating topic and at times I'm lost when I read the translation of the book that you are currently undertaking. The issue is that I'm always looking for sources, the evidence that I can access to verify what the author is saying is true. Unfortunately with the lack of scholarly/academic literature on Koranic criticism being in a pitiful state as far as the English speaking world is concerned I rely upon you and HM.

    Thanks again!  Afro

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1324 - August 13, 2014, 11:41 PM

    I think a lot of the problem is that the translations of the Qur'an are already so greatly sanitized to the extent that the meanings as they were originally heard become lost or watered down. Even as a murtad, I'm so familiar with the interpretations that as I read through certain verses, I still tend to look over the fact that on their own, they are completely nonsensical.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1325 - August 13, 2014, 11:47 PM

    The meaning of the wsord is one thing but there is no way that I could critique the Koran on it's grammatical merits alone like I would with say an English essay from a student. I wouldn't know where to begin. But I'm learning a lot from 'My Ordeal with the Koran' translation albeit slowly.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1326 - August 13, 2014, 11:48 PM

    I think a lot of the problem is that the translations of the Qur'an are already so greatly sanitized to the extent that the meanings as they were originally heard become lost or watered down. Even as a murtad, I'm so familiar with the interpretations that as I read through certain verses, I still tend to look over the fact that on their own, they are completely nonsensical.


    I don't know to what extent apologists use this excuse when say translating Classical Arabic to Greek or Mandarin. Is it the same excuses?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1327 - August 14, 2014, 05:49 PM

    I think a lot of the problem is that the translations of the Qur'an are already so greatly sanitized to the extent that the meanings as they were originally heard become lost or watered down. Even as a murtad, I'm so familiar with the interpretations that as I read through certain verses, I still tend to look over the fact that on their own, they are completely nonsensical.


    Another large part of the problem is that interpretations of the Qur'an are inextricably interlaced with (1) traditional Muslim readings of the text (qira'at), as developed over time, and including orthographic and orthoepic additions to the basic rasm; and (2) the apparatus of Classical Arabic, which is not the language of the Qur'an, but rather a complex linguistic ideal composed out of an incredibly complicated and polymorphous linguistic background that was codified in accordance with Muslim religious practice, centuries after the Qur'an was written.

    As a non-Muslim (as opposed to ex-Muslim), the sad fact is that there is no text of the Qur'an that is free from the meanings assigned to it centuries later by Muslim exegetes.

    We are not even in position to begin to produce such a text.  Not nearly enough is known about the language of pre-Islamic Arabia (in the broad sense).  The rasm is unbelievably ambiguous by itself.  And even the basic rasm has already been heavily distorted in the earliest forms we have it, which have enormous amounts of interpolations, additions, and changes.

    This is the problem with reconstructing the original meaning of the "ur-Qur'an" before it was kitted out and interpreted by Muslims.  Rarely is there enough clear linguistic evidence and contextual evidence to confidently say what the bare rasm itself was saying.  So the re-interpretation of Qur'an 100 I mentioned above, for example, is certainly plausible, but without additional evidence it's hard to say whether it's right or not.

    Once you strip away the traditional Muslim interpretation and overwriting (i.e., once it is admitted how unreliable and speculative it is, the lack of a secure tradition), much of the Qur'an is basically incomprehensible.  It only becomes comprehensible through a religious apparatus that insists on a particular meaning and mythical background, which Muslim believers are taught from an early age.

    There are isolated examples where the original text's meaning shines through against the Muslim misreading.  Donner's classic article on the meaning of "Furqan" is one of my favorite examples.  Donner is able to use detailed analysis from multiples sources which bolster each other and strongly support his reading of the meaning of Furqan, based largely on the Syriac background of this term ... his interpretation notably makes the Qur'an's alleged reference to the "Battle of Badr" disappear and instead turns the Qur'an's discussion into a reference to Moses parting the Red Sea.  I find it completely convincing, and more than that, correct.

    http://www.academia.edu/1013511/Quranic_Furqan

    A couple other great examples of this approach are David Power's wonderful analysis in "Mohammed is not the Father of any of Your Men," and Manfred Kropp's outstanding article "Tripartite, but anti-Trinitarian Slogans in the Quran, Possibly Pre-Islamic."  In all these cases, the linguistic re-reading of the bare rasm is supported by many other lines of analysis that strongly support the overall new interpretation, radically different from the traditional interpretation.  The problem is that such multiple lines of evidence are lacking for much of the rest of the Qur'an, and thus we simply have no good way to tell what its text originally meant -- the 'mysterious letters' being an extremely obvious example.

    By the way, y'all may be interested to know that Ibn Warraq's brand new book on these subjects is coming out in two weeks (!).  800 pages of scholarly articles on this subject.  I can't wait to get it, already have it pre-ordered.

    http://www.amazon.com/Christmas-Koran-Luxenberg-Judeo-Christian-Background/dp/161614937X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408039000&sr=8-1&keywords=christmas+koran+warraq
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1328 - August 14, 2014, 06:41 PM

    Quote
    (2) the apparatus of Classical Arabic, which is not the language of the Qur'an, but rather a complex linguistic ideal composed out of an incredibly complicated and polymorphous linguistic background that was codified in accordance with Muslim religious practice, centuries after the Qur'an was written.


    This is a very interesting point that you make which I've heard made elsewhere, though not as well. I've been reading up on the linguistic sciences that had developed later on, including a complex science of grammar, in order to bring coherency to the text of the Koran. However, you are stating that not only was a structure (rules of grammar applied and changed) in order to repair some of the grammatical discrepencies that appeared in the Koran but also that meanings were created in order to make the Koran more comprehensible. Therefore, the Koran didn't come perfectly formed with well defined terms, rather a whole science had to be formulated and superimpsoed upon the Koran to make it accessible to the reader? So where there once was no meaning,meaning had to be applied to it and where there was no structure, the rules of grammar were manipulated so as to confrom to the at times unstructured nature of the Koran. Am I right in the analysis?

    Quote
    We are not even in position to begin to produce such a text.  Not nearly enough is known about the language of pre-Islamic Arabia (in the broad sense).  The rasm is unbelievably ambiguous by itself.  And even the basic rasm has already been heavily distorted in the earliest forms we have it, which have enormous amounts of interpolations, additions, and changes.


    Have you come across Toshihiko Izutsu who was once beloved in the Muslim world due to his being perceived as non-threatening (wasn't white, Christian out to defame Islam)? He sought to discover the original pre-Islamic meaning of the words before they were interpreted by Muslim scholars. For example, Kafir and Allah.
     

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1329 - August 14, 2014, 11:44 PM

    I do not think that Classical Arabic was too artificial in defining rules of *grammar*, though it conflicts with Qur'anic Arabic in a number of respects, and in some other areas where the rules of Classical Arabic are not contradicted, they are still probably wrong (for example, asserting that the negative particle "kalla" can only negate the text following it, never preceding text). 

    In terms of *Qur'anic vocabulary*, on the other hand, much of the alleged "Classical Arabic" meaning of Qur'anic terms was just speculation or mistakes by the later Muslims, who no longer understood what many of its terms (like 'furqan') actually meant or what linguistic context the Qur'an was using them in.  Similarly, metaphorical figures like "Abu Lahab," the "Father of Flame," were misunderstood as being actual proper names of actual people.

    Linguistic context is key, because I strongly adhere to the view that the base Qur'anic rasm primarily reflects a Northern Arabic dialect that was heavily influenced by Aramaicisms, and which incorporated many features that made their way into 'Middle Arabic.'  This was a literate dialect that arose alongside constant use of Aramaic as a lingua franca; Arabic script derives from Nabatean script, and the language of that region (Syria).  Notably, this urbanized Northern dialect lacked "Irab" case endings, like the base Qur'anic rasm, and like neo-Arabic.

    But the Qur'anic text was read, interpreted, and vocalized by later Muslims in the archaic poetic koine, as it was retrojected back into the empty Arabian desert and its bedouins.  Thus a literate Syrian-Arabic dialect text composed in a Judaeo-Christian context, arising in an urban and agricultural region, was later misread as though it had been composed in the archaic language of the desert among pagans.  Classical Arabic was defined by Muslim grammarians in terms of the most pure, ancient, and undefiled desert bedouin speech, which was assuredly NOT the linguistic context in which the Qur'an was originally compiled and written.  The Muslim exegetes then interpreted much of the obscure Qur'anic vocabulary through speculation and context, as well as story-telling.  Classical Arabic is an ideological reconstruction, by pious medieval Muslims working centuries after Mohammed's death, of a presumed pure bedouin Arabic language, which the Qur'an should be (largely but not entirely) read as reflecting.

    This is, of course, a variation of the famous view of Karl Vollers, although he argued that the dialect in question was Hijazi Arabic that was 'translated' into Najd Arabic, whereas I think it was likely Syrian Arabic, and also that the text was probably a composite assembled together from several different sources with different linguistic contexts and different scripts (even the Qur'an itself uses radically different orthography approaches; as Gerd Puin has pointed out, the Qur'anic text was 'frozen' during a process of orthographic reform, with noted inconsistencies and different spelling approaches to the same words).
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1330 - August 15, 2014, 12:08 AM

    Y'all just keep talking. I wish I had heard this stuff two decades ago.

    Don't let Hitler have the street.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1331 - August 15, 2014, 11:04 AM

    I do not think that Classical Arabic was too artificial in defining rules of *grammar*, though it conflicts with Qur'anic Arabic in a number of respects, and in some other areas where the rules of Classical Arabic are not contradicted, they are still probably wrong (for example, asserting that the negative particle "kalla" can only negate the text following it, never preceding text).


    I remember trying to learn how to read and write Koranic Arabic and it was a complicated mess. So you too would argue that Classical Arabic emerged to 'correct' the grammar of the Koran, Koranic Arabic, and embellish it with meaning?

    Similarly, metaphorical figures like "Abu Lahab," the "Father of Flame," were misunderstood as being actual proper names of actual people.

     

    I thought that Abu Lahab and his wife in surah al-Massad referred to actual people who lived around the time of Muhammad and were not fictional characters at all. What is your reason for stating that he was metaphorical?

    Linguistic context is key, because I strongly adhere to the view that the base Qur'anic rasm primarily reflects a Northern Arabic dialect that was heavily influenced by Aramaicisms, and which incorporated many features that made their way into 'Middle Arabic.'  This was a literate dialect that arose alongside constant use of Aramaic as a lingua franca; Arabic script derives from Nabatean script, and the language of that region (Syria).  Notably, this urbanized Northern dialect lacked "Irab" case endings, like the base Qur'anic rasm, and like neo-Arabic.


    It astonishes me how advanced the Nabateans were and they perserved some of their writing on clay tablets and there is a lot of evidence to indicate its influence throughout the rest of Arabia http://www.arabnews.com/news/art-culture/611411 It makes me wander why didn't Allah send his Final Seal further North where there appears to have been a thriving culture of reading and writing.

    What do you mean by 'irab' case endings?

    whereas I think it was likely Syrian Arabic, and also that the text was probably a composite assembled together from several different sources with different linguistic contexts and different scripts (even the Qur'an itself uses radically different orthography approaches; as Gerd Puin has pointed out, the Qur'anic text was 'frozen' during a process of orthographic reform, with noted inconsistencies and different spelling approaches to the same words).


    This appears to be the consensus from amongst the academics that I've read, though the degree to which ancient Syriac influenced Arabic is debated by some.

    Y'all just keep talking. I wish I had heard this stuff two decades ago.


    I know. It's extremely complicated for someone who hardly knows the modern/classical/Koranic Arabic to understand it now...no wonder people just nod their head and go along with whatever the apologists/imams say as it is an overly complicated topic. If I heard this two decades ago I wouldn't know where to begin. But you can trust the CEMBers to come to the rescue!

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1332 - August 15, 2014, 07:16 PM

    I think the Classical Arabic question is harder than that ... it did not emerge to 'correct' the Qur'an, it emerged as part of the process of systematically imposing order and ideology on an extremely diverse and complicated landscape of actual Arabic language use.

    Think of it as modern standard written English, which is not the same as the many different spoken varieties of English.  Classical Arabic is something similar, a 'high' literate language that was adopted and defined as a way of dealing with underlying linguistic complexity.  In doing so, the classical language was defined in a way that reflected 8th/9th century AH ideology and language, and only obliquely represents the actual linguistic background of the base Qur'anic text (notice I say text rather than recitation).

    But these are different issues.  You have to ask what dialect(s)the Qur'anic rasm was written in, then what dialect(s) it was read in, and then how those dialect(s) were later defined as Classical Arabic. 

    What is particularly strange is how badly the traditional Arabic reading, in Classical Arabic, seems to fit the base orthography of the Qur'an -- the rasm.  Here we have a text which on its face conflicts with so many of the defining features of Classical Arabic, which were later "written into" and on top of that basic rasm.  For example, the rasm does not include the "I'rab" case endings of Classical Arabic (consistent with Arabic dialect, neo-Arabic, Nabatean Arabic, etc., which all lack case endings).  More importantly, the rhyme scheme of the Qur'an only works when you don't pronounce the case endings; you pronounce them in the middle of the sentence, but not for the rhyming portion at the end.  This is incomprehensible if the base orthography really was "Classical Arabic."  Clearly it was originally written to rhyme in a language/dialect WITHOUT case endings.  Notably, Classical Arabic poetry does the opposite, it only rhymes WITH the case endings pronounced, which is the only non-ridiculous way that you would write rhymes in such a language. 

    Another example, the base rasm orthography does not include a hamza to indicate medial glottal stops -- another defining feature of Classical Arabic -- but instead includes long vowels.  As Donner puts it:  "Hence the word mu’min is written starting with m followed by w as marker for long u, because the glottal stop of classical Arabic mu’min was elided in Meccan dialect to produce the
    pronunciation mumin, which is how the word is written in the Qur’an (“mwmn”)."

    Muslims explain this incongruity as reflecting the lack of a medial glottal stop in Hijazi dialect, written down in the text.  So they basically concede that the basic Qur'anic text reflects a major linguistic deviation from its recitation in Classical Arabic on this point, but instead of reading the script in the (largely unknown!) dialect it was originally written in, they use additional markings to explain how you instead should read glottal stops when reciting the text, following Classical Arabic pronunciation ... even though the base rasm provides a different pronunciation!  How do they justify this?  By claiming that oral recitation is primary, and was securely transmitted from the start!  Oddly enough, the traditional Muslim explanation for the Uthmanic text compilation is that it was done because people were reciting the Qur'an in so many different dialects .... but even more oddly, the Arabic script of that time was too rudimentary to allow such fixation anyways.

    This is all very bizarre.  Nothing about the base Qur'anic rasm suggests that it reflects the language which Muslims now recite it in.  The 'complete' Qur'anic script and recitation (kitted out with full diacritics and markings) transforms the basic text with a swarm of extrinsic signs that essentially writes it into a different language, namely Classical Arabic.  The mind-boggling complexity that results from this process of distortion was inevitable.

    But all of this requires as an initial step one simple point:  Recognizing that later Muslims did not retain a secure understanding of the language and context in which the base Qur'anic texts were composed and written down.  Once you concede that point, which assumes a lack of a *secure oral tradition*, then the entire traditional Muslim interpretive apparatus crashes down.

    Abu Lahab is a great example of how this works.  Being a non-Muslim (as opposed to an ex-Muslim), when I read that surah, it never even occurred to me that Abu Lahab was anything other than a metaphorical figure; only somebody raised with the traditional Muslim interpretation would think of that when reading text.  "Father of Flame" is obviously not a real name, and was never intended to be understood as a specific real person.  This silly symbolic name was just part of a story about unbelievers who are destined for hellfire, hence the goofball symbolic names, hence the wife carrying firewood for her own burning.  Yet later Muslims invented an elaborate biographical and historical context for this text which they no longer understood.  It's all pretend.  I later discovered that Gabriel Reynolds wrote an article making this exact point about the surah:

    http://www.firstthings.com/article/2009/11/reading-the-quran-through-the-bible

    "Nonetheless, most scholars rely on these stories to explain the Qur’an. In Chapter 111, for example, the Qur’an refers to “The Father of Flame,” who will not benefit from his money but “roast in a burning fire,” and his wife, “who carries firewood and has a fiber rope around her neck.” Karen Armstrong (a former nun and popular writer on Islam) explains, “Abu Lahab’s wife, who fancied herself as a poet, liked to shout insulting verses at the Prophet when he passed by. On one occasion she hurled an armful of prickly firewood in his path.”

    Armstrong relies on Muslim traditions that make Abu Lahab’s wife historical, but without these traditions the chapter would seem to be an artful metaphor of a foolish rich man and his wife who carries the wood that will fuel her own punishment in hell. Instead, we are given historical claims of a Meccan woman who attacked Muhammad by hurling firewood (Armstrong invents the prickly part) at him."

    It is almost unbelievable to me that Western scholars ever took the traditional Muslim exegesis of this passage seriously.  But that very strange lack of critical thought in previous Islamic studies is exactly why I find the field so exciting -- finally, over the last ten years, the old approach has collapsed and people are reading the Qur'an for what it is, in historical and linguistic context, not just through the lens of later Muslim tradition.  Amazing discoveries and theories are coming out of the woodwork now.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1333 - August 15, 2014, 07:51 PM

    Very interesting perspectives, Zaotar - thanks  Afro
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1334 - August 19, 2014, 05:38 PM

    For those interested there is a wiki page here with some of the "revelations" of Musaylima:

    http://ar.wikisource.org/wiki/%D9%82%D8%B1%D8%A2%D9%86_%D9%85%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%84%D9%85%D8%A9
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1335 - August 19, 2014, 05:45 PM

    Oh c'mon... this one has GOT to be fabricated!! Cheesy (I suspect many are) - but it's funny though. Who knows - maybe Musaylima was just a bit more honest than Mo  Cheesy

    إنكن معشر النساء خلقتن أفواجًا، وجعلتن لنا أزواجًا، نولجه فيكن إيلاجًا


    "Indeed Oh community of women you have have been created in crowds. And made into wives for us. So that we may thrust it in you a thrusting"

     Cheesy
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1336 - August 19, 2014, 05:54 PM

    I'm on my phone right now, so I'll try to contribute later, but I believe there was a verse as well on sex addressing women saying something like, "If you prefer it standing on two legs, or if you prefer it down on all fours."
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1337 - August 19, 2014, 06:59 PM

    I must say that it appears as though Musaylima must have been satirising the Koran because the content is of a comical nature. It doesn't compare much too well with the Koran at the moment.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1338 - August 19, 2014, 08:03 PM

    tbh I can't see a great deal of difference in quality between the verses attributed to Musaylima and the verses quote from the Qur'an - such as these.

    Both are pretty much on the same level:

    1. Nay! I swear by this city.
    2. And you are a freeman of this city
    3. And the begetter and whom he begot.
    4. Verily We have created man into toil and struggle.

     
    1. By the night as it shrouds
    2. By the day as it shines
    3. And the creating of male and female
    4. Indeed your striving is diverse.

    1. By the runners breathing pantingly,
    2. Then strike sparks of fire,
    3.Then those that make raids in the morning,
    4. Then thereby raise dust,
    5. Then rush thereby upon an assembly:


    The last one (Wal-'Adiyaat) is utter nonsense! Just sound words. As HM said it's just "Bing banga boom and a rata tat tat!"

    Is that superior to the verses by Musaylima?

    Is one by a God and another by a human?
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1339 - August 19, 2014, 08:06 PM

    Of course, I suppose in that sense the quality or eloquence of the verses is almost non-existent. Was Musaylima in your opinion parodying the Koran?

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

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  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1340 - August 19, 2014, 08:16 PM

    I suspect the vast majority of what is attributed to Musaylima is a later fabrication as they clearly do seem as if they were made to make one laugh or be amused and thereby belittling Musaylama. Though tbh the quality is not necessarily that bad. The authors unwittingly showed that it's not actually that hard to imitate the Quran.

    It may be that some of the more serious ones are true. For example:

    By the night that obliterates (the day).
    By the wolf that silently prowls,
    The (Banu) Usayid did not cut neither fresh nor dry!


    This could well be genuine as it appears to be dealing with problems Musaylima faced in Yamama with some sections of his support amongst the tribes there.

    As for quality, they are as good as some verses of the Qur'an.

    And this seems genuine and certainly as good (or as bad) as parts of the Qur'an imho

    You have indeed been favoured above those who dwell in hair (tents)
    Nor shall the people of Mudar take precedence over you
    So stand forth in defence of your land
    And give refuge to the wretched
    And resist every unjust oppressor


  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1341 - August 19, 2014, 08:39 PM

    I once read a really interesting article comparing Musaylimah and Muhammad. While they both claimed prophethood, there are some noteworthy differences that may have affected the natures of their respective “revelations.” Firstly, and perhaps most importantly, is the fact that, by all accounts, Musaylimah was loved and followed by his people. He was accepted in his role as leader/prophet so he really did not have to focus so much energy on threatening “disbelievers.”

    Also, Musaylimah seemed to have embraced the general culture of his tribe, setting up his own home town as a haram and praising his own people. Muhammad, though a native Makkan, rebelled against the culture of his hometown and left it in order to form his forces against it. While Musaylimah’s men fought with all courage and valor to defend Yamamah in his name, Muhammad had to conquer and subdue Makkah with the threat of force.

    In addition to this, Yamamah, like Madinah, was already a settled and fertile Oasis (Remember the word Riyadh is actually the plural of Gardens, and the Qassim region is still a top date producer.) As Musaylimah did not import an influx of unskilled refugees into his haram like Muhammad did with the muhajiroon, he did not have to raid and pillage other villages for sustenance. They were already a self-sufficient community.

    Lastly, Musaylimah was not an expansionist. He did not want to rule all of Arabia and did not believe that he was the only messenger of God. His famed letter to Muhammad was actually pretty reasonable when you think about it. “The land is split between us and you, yet the Quraish are a people who transgress.”

    So, if Musaylimah’s verses are linguistically similar to the Qur’an, then I think the realities of Musaylimah’s community meant that he did not have to make verses with a content and nature that were also similar. Perhaps the case could be made that Muhammad’s faith’s adaptations to those challenges that were unique to it also helped it to triumph over the religion of Musaylimah.  
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1342 - August 19, 2014, 08:46 PM

    Thanks, HM. I have to confess I don't know much about Musaylima. It does seem though that he had strong support in al-Yamama.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1343 - August 19, 2014, 08:58 PM

    HM, could you please locate the article if it is in English? Or provide the reference?

    I do have some references according to Francis Peters the two did correspond with each other during the Prophets final years. That is until the fake prophet, the accursed Musaylima, was overthrown and fed to the lions and the One True Faith prevailed over all others and the world was peaceful up until THE WHITE DEVIL reared his ugly head and concquered the Muslim lands thus destabilising the region and causing war and causing the SHIA-SUNNI split. True story.

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1344 - August 19, 2014, 10:00 PM

    I'm pretty sure this was the article I'm referring to, if I remember the title correctly. I can't be bothered to register on the site to download it and be sure.

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3596357?uid=3739656&uid=2460338415&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&uid=3739256&sid=21104541683337
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1345 - August 19, 2014, 10:58 PM

    Brilliant find HM.  Afro

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1346 - August 19, 2014, 11:14 PM

    I'm pretty sure this was the article I'm referring to, if I remember the title correctly. I can't be bothered to register on the site to download it and be sure.

    http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3596357?uid=3739656&uid=2460338415&uid=2129&uid=2&uid=70&uid=4&uid=83&uid=63&uid=3739256&sid=21104541683337


    I can download it for you guys if you want me to.

    Actually, here you go - http://www.scribd.com/doc/237256387/Musaylima-Dale-Eickelman
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1347 - August 19, 2014, 11:25 PM

    Thanks Cap'n!  Afro

    #MTFBY

    No free mixing of the sexes is permitted on these forums or via PM or the various chat groups that are operating.

    Women must write modestly and all men must lower their case.

    http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?425649-Have-some-Hayaa-%28modesty-shame%29-people!
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1348 - August 20, 2014, 12:59 AM

    Fascinating, thanks for the links!

    My own private theory is that these reports of warring prophets (the Riddah wars) are unreliable history, and reflect much later recollections about a general climate of earlier monotheistic preaching amongst the Arabs, as recorded in many different sources and recollections.

    What we know as the Qur'an probably reflects in part substantial compilations from such various sources that include this monotheistic Arabian preaching; that preaching would have been pervasive in Northern Arab regions.  In order to compile a canon from these disparate materials, some of these texts and preachings were excluded from the evolving canon, and it is partly this process of editing that led to the later recollection of Mohammed as the one true prophet among a broader climate of competing false messengers.

    In other words, what later "believers" confronted was disorganized textual debris from an earlier era, which they assembled into both a holy text (the Qur'an) and an accompanying history of how that text evolved out of conflict between different Arabian prophets.  This both explained (1) why such disparate textual materials existed; and (2) provided an explanatory justification for why certain materials could be culled in or out during the compilation process (you could just attribute such materials to competing false prophets, justifying its exclusion from the canon).

    Were I a Qur'anic scholar, I think this would be an intriguing hypothesis to analyze.
  • Discussion about "My Ordeal with the Qur'an"
     Reply #1349 - August 20, 2014, 04:47 PM

    I think such a scenario is highly likely, Zaotar. I remember professor Wansborough used to argue that the Qur'an was edited orally over a period of time, with parts included or excluded and the whole thing polished and improved.
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