Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence

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- billy
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #150 - June 13, 2010, 05:15 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:07 PM
"Non-Whites have equal rights as Whites."

Can you name me a society in western Europe or North America where this is not the case?

Remember, rights are conferred on people by natural law and actual statute. It may be that in practise there is distortion or deviance from this. But in all the countries of the West mentioned in this debate, this is actually the case.

Can you name that society where non whites do not have equal rights as whites?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #151 - June 13, 2010, 05:16 PM

OK, maybe I misunderstood you, but nevertheless, you make Australia sound like a more accepting society than it is, then you go on to say don't blame your failures on the "system".
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #152 - June 13, 2010, 05:16 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:12 PM
You know, it's an expected response when you accuse a society of being racist that members of said society get defensive. But that leads to nowhere. Yes, racism exists, and that's all I've stated. You took it upon yourself to attack me without even knowing what I was arguing. I did not argue that any Western society is "irredeemably, essentially racist."

You're the one getting defensive. I'm not "attacking" you. I'm having a discussion and responding to your points.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #153 - June 13, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:06 PM
Lol. When you get selected for your skin colour, that's discrimination, and it's racism.

A security check does not harm you. Like I said, it is effective in stopping terrorism. If you want to do something about it, try to change the fact that 99% of terrorists are middle eastern/south asian.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #154 - June 13, 2010, 05:17 PM

Quote from: billy on June 13, 2010, 05:15 PM
Can you name me a society in western Europe or North America where this is not the case?

Remember, rights are conferred on people by natural law and actual statute. It may be that in practise there is distortion or deviance from this. But in all the countries of the West mentioned in this debate, this is actually the case.

Can you name that society where non whites do not have equal rights as whites?

Once again, you've misinterpreted what I was saying. What I was saying is that that argument is not proof that racism doesn't exist. Yes, so what if non-Whites have equal rights as Whites? Racism is more than just rights on paper.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #155 - June 13, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote from: @li on June 13, 2010, 05:05 PM
There's a stereotypical image of aussies as beer drinkers. Why on earth are you bitching about that? That doesn't disadvantage you in any way. If you are born in australia and become famous in some way, the media will refer to you as 'the famous australian _____' or as 'the dual lebanese/australian citizen ___'. That's all that matters to you personally.

If you think that this is racism, you need to spend some time in the 1900s when blacks were called all sorts of racial sluts and were segregated from the rest.

I'm not bitching about anyone or using a stereotype. Unechance mentioned something about the drunk guy in the pub. I was just adding on to that. I don't give a shit what anyone does to get high so long as they don't impinge on my safety. That's why I've always stayed clear of alcohol and speed and far prefer most of the other drugs.

I don't think you quite understand what I'm arguing. You've been arguing with me because I said that in Australia today, Australian = white. I never mentioned job discrimination, I never mentioned not getting on with neighbours, I never mentioned African Americans being subjected to racial "sluts" or any of the other crap that people seem to think I'm inferring. I'm talking about universal egalitarianism.

Jeff Fenech once said that if he wasn't famous he would just be "a wog from Marrackville".

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #156 - June 13, 2010, 05:18 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:16 PM
you make Australia sound like a more accepting society than it is

No it is not, I have lived there and experienced it first hand, I have family who livs there. You have never been there.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #157 - June 13, 2010, 05:19 PM

Quote from: @li on June 13, 2010, 05:17 PM
A security check does not harm you. Like I said, it is effective in stopping terrorism. If you want to do something about it, try to change the fact that 99% of terrorists are middle eastern/south asian.

Well, at least have the guts to admit that it requires some sort of racism to defeat terrorism, instead of beating around the bush, if that's what you actually believe.

Plus, it actually causes psychological harm. School segregation was ended in the US because they found out that it causes a lot of psychological harm to Blacks. Brown v. Board of Education. You can see how this can be similar.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #158 - June 13, 2010, 05:20 PM

Quote from: @li on June 13, 2010, 05:18 PM
No it is not, I have lived there and experienced it first hand, I have family who livs there. You have never been there.

Wow, the you-haven't-lived-there argument. Cheapest shot ever. Reports of racism in Australia are abound.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #159 - June 13, 2010, 05:21 PM

Quote
Once again, you've misinterpreted what I was saying. What I was saying is that that argument is not proof that racism doesn't exist. Yes, so what if non-Whites have equal rights as Whites? Racism is more than just rights on paper.

I haven't misinterpreted anything. You said the assertion that "Non-Whites have equal rights as Whites" is egregious. I was just asking, in what western society is this actually the case? I also said that not all societies are perfect, and that feeds into a point you didn't respond to, because it actually acknowledges racism and discrimination in its asking:

Quote
Yes, racism does exist in all societies - this is an unfortunate fact of life. Thats not really saying anything profound. What matters is how societies orientate themselves to ameliorate this, through legislation and social action and practise and societal change.

Wouldn't you agree, that this is the measure of a society?

Do you agree with that?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #160 - June 13, 2010, 05:22 PM

Quote
I haven't misinterpreted anything. You said the assertion that "Non-Whites have equal rights as Whites" is egregious.

No I haven't. Again, I was arguing that because non-Whites have equal rights to Whites doesn't mean racism doesn't exist. Stop telling me what I did and did not argue. If that's the only way you can hold your argument, then clearly you have none.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #161 - June 13, 2010, 05:23 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 05:18 PM
You've been arguing with me because I said that in Australia today, Australian = white.

And you have provided no evidence for this. When you go to an airport, they ask for your nationality, you say australian. If you go on the news, they will call you an australian. So what evidence are you basing your self-created belief on that australian=white?

Seriously m8, if you're insecure about your origins and don't think of yourself as an aussie, that's a problem you're creating for yourself, no one and nothing else is pushing that opinion onto you.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #162 - June 13, 2010, 05:26 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:22 PM
No I haven't.

OK. Lets leave that to one side.

What about this, would you agree with it?

Quote
Yes, racism does exist in all societies - this is an unfortunate fact of life. Thats not really saying anything profound. What matters is how societies orientate themselves to ameliorate this, through legislation and social action and practise and societal change.

Wouldn't you agree, that this is the measure of a society?

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
God is Love.
Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #163 - June 13, 2010, 05:26 PM

Yes, I do. What's your point?
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #164 - June 13, 2010, 05:27 PM

Quote
Yes, I do.

Great

Quote
What's your point?

Exactly what it says.

"we can smell traitors and country haters"

Quote from: arX on May 01, 2011, 03:33 AM
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Love is Blind. Stevie Wonder is blind. Therefore, Stevie Wonder is God.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #165 - June 13, 2010, 05:29 PM

Abood... You do know that we all know that racism exists, don't you? No one is denying that... You're sort of arguing with yourself on that one. What is debatable is the degree of racism, and you doing a quick Google search of "racist Australia" and then concluding that Australia is a "racist society" from that search is just illogical. It's difficult to measure racism or degrees of racism, but rest assured, the successful Indian community in the UK, or the successful Chinese community in Australia, or the people going off to university (most of my mates, I'm not, I'm too dumb!) and such would probably laugh at someone who sat around saying "this is racist, that is racist, and that society is racist". We know it exists, but it's how you deal with it and the effort you make ultimately.

Anyway, I'm probably off this topic. I don't want to debate this sort of thing. It's 1:30 am and Germany and Australia are playing soon.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #166 - June 13, 2010, 05:32 PM

If you're non-white and an Australian passport holder and you are asked your nationality by an immigration official you will answer Australian. If that same immigration official was off duty and you met him in the pub and he asked you your nationality he will not be expecting you to say Australian and he would not ask that question of his fellow white in the pub. When it comes to the crunch, you're not Australian and when "We decide who comes to this country and the circumstances in which they come" your black arse is not the "We" deciding, it's the one upon whom they are deciding.

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #167 - June 13, 2010, 05:40 PM

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:19 PM
Well, at least have the guts to admit that it requires some sort of racism to defeat terrorism, instead of beating around the bush, if that's what you actually believe.

Racism is if you are given some sort of disadvantage for no reason other than contempt against your race. For example: A man doesn't like blacks, so they are not allowed to do anything except slavery.

An airport check is not because the officers don't like arabs/south asians, it is for the protection of the passangers on the flight. Profiling for a real reason, i.e protection, is not racism, it is simply an effective means of stopping terrrorism. As a brown pakistani guy, if I get stopped for a security check, I don't mind at all, I will chat with the police and make friends with them while they check me.

Quote from: Abood on June 13, 2010, 05:19 PM
Plus, it actually causes psychological harm. School segregation was ended in the US because they found out that it causes a lot of psychological harm to Blacks. Brown v. Board of Education. You can see how this can be similar.

The reason for any harm is the terrorists who force this kind of measures, not the security guys who are forced to do the profiling to effectively protect the passengers. Hence, you should direct your anger at the terrorists, not at the guys trying to protect themselves.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #168 - June 13, 2010, 05:45 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 05:32 PM
If you're non-white and an Australian passport holder and you are asked your nationality by an immigration official you will answer Australian. If that same immigration official was off duty and you met him in the pub and he asked you your nationality he will not be expecting you to say Australian and he would not ask that question of his fellow white in the pub.

I totally disagree. It comes down to the accent. If I have an aussie accent and I'm in a pub, no one will ask me where I come from (I know because I have friends who have an aussie accent, and they never get asked this question, and neither does my nephew get asked this who is only 10 and already has an aussie accent).
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #169 - June 13, 2010, 05:55 PM

LOL. You're incorrigible. But I like your dogged style. We'll just have to agree to disagree.

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #170 - June 13, 2010, 05:58 PM

Curiously, do you have an aussie accent and you still get asked where you come from?
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #171 - June 13, 2010, 06:04 PM

Yes I have an Australian accent and just last week a woman I've known since 2002 asked me my "nationality". But I will admit that it's much rarer than in the past. However, I'm not sure that it's to do with non-whites being accepted as Aussies. I think it's more to do with there being more Indians in the country so Australians know what an Indian looks like.

When an Australian asks your nationality and you have an Australian accent what they're actually asking is your ethnic origin. However if you asked them their nationality they will not say "Irish" or "English" or "German" they will say, puzzled, Australian.

Many years ago I used to say "Australian" myself but then there would always be the counter questions: but where are you from originally? Clearly not from around these parts...

If you ask an Australian "Where are you from" he might list his suburb. He is not expecting you to list yours should he ask you the same. I should mention that Australians are, by and large, polite people.

I remember once I was asked where I was from and I said I was Indian. That chap said, "That's alright. I thought you were an Abo. At least you're not an Abo. I fucking hate Abos" and I heard the word "Abo" used at least twice in the last month at work. I've also heard a Tiger Woods joke which included the word "nigger" read out aloud at work, although one lady did chastise the other that read it out.

This thread has been very good for me. It's made me think a bit about this topic. I actually like Australians and their culture. I just think that Australia has to reflect on what it means to be an Australian. I think it should be debated openly and publically.

The language of the mob was only the language of public opinion cleansed of hypocrisy and restraint - Hannah Arendt.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #172 - June 13, 2010, 06:16 PM

Ok, you might be correct in that case, but do you think there is any contempt or malice or racism behind why people ask us foreigners this question a lot, or is it simply curiosity to know about our origins?

E.g if I meet someone who is white and has an aussie accent, I pretty much know the whole story of their grandfathers and great grandfathers, and there isn't anything new for me to learn if I ask them their origins. But if I meet a japanese australian, I would often ask them where they originally come from, just out of curiosity and get to know them better.

Being honest, if I met you I would ask where you originally come from too, but that's only because I'm curious about your background, not because I think of you as any less australian than a white guy down the road.

Do you think there's something wrong with that?
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #173 - June 13, 2010, 06:23 PM

Quote from: @li on June 13, 2010, 05:00 PM
I've never said that it doesn't exist. I've only said that it is very low in australia. And given how low it is, it is not a problem for immigrants who want to integrate in the society.
It is effective, and it is for your own protection as well. As a young pakistani guy, when I visit an airport, I WANT them to do some extra checks on me because that will mean that other pakistani guys who may quite likely be radical would be screened as well.

Racism is if you got selected for extra screening and you had to pay additional money to get on the flight as an arab, or if you received any discrimination. A security check is just a check, if you don't have any problems, they let you go through.

No, racism (or racialism if its voluntary) is if you get selected for extra screening full stop. You are being discriminated against because your race is the discriminating factor in the choice to screen you. And you may not suffer any monetary penalty, but you suffer time penalty and (maybe) a self esteem penalty.

Just because you want to be discriminated against, doesn't mean a government should institute a policy of discrimination. You are a minority, like Zionist Palestinians and Sikh BNP members.

It's also foolish, since so many high profile terrorist acts in Western countries have Caucasian Muslims involved in the front line operation.

This racial profiling only results in further alienating "ethics", since how can they ever intergrate into a system that is always going to treat them. differently. It's completely contradictory.
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #174 - June 13, 2010, 06:26 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 06:04 PM
This thread has been very good for me. It's made me think a bit about this topic. I actually like Australians and their culture. I just think that Australia has to reflect on what it means to be an Australian. I think it should be debated openly and publically.

This thread reminded me of an article I was reading earlier in he week

http://www.newstatesman.com/society/2010/06/british-football-england
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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #175 - June 13, 2010, 06:27 PM

@li, I'm guilty of that too but I'm also interested in the ancestry of Australian people. I like Europe and loved visiting there. I like European culture and thought.

I don't think they see me as less of a person. Definitely not. I think a lot of Australians see Aborigines as inferior though.

As to the "Australian" identity even my Australian friends unthinkingly refer to white people as Australians and an Asian Australian as an Asian. Greeks are wogs. And Greeks refer to Australians as "Australians" or, when irritated, as "skips".

Even my wife will refer to "Australians", "Indians" etc. It's in the speech, it's embedded in the culture. I want this aspect to change and I think it will change, especially as there are so many mixed marriages and immigrants coming in. I also want Aboriginal culture to be embraced and respected and for Aboriginal sovereignty. I dont' know how that fits in with my universal egalitarianism though.

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #176 - June 13, 2010, 06:29 PM

Thanks for the article Mr. Silly looks really interesting.

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #177 - June 13, 2010, 06:35 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 02:56 PM
I've got kids who are seventh generation Australian from their mothers side. They've got Arabic first names and brown skin. I hope they can be truly Australian. I think they will be.

See this is what I don´t understand. Why Arabic names ? Won´t that make them stand out and seem foreign to the majority of the population ?

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #178 - June 13, 2010, 06:39 PM

Quote from: Paloma on June 13, 2010, 06:35 PM
See this is what I don´t understand. Why Arabic names ? Won´t that make them stand out and seem foreign to the majority of the population ?

I was a Muslim when they were born. And even if they have Arabic names - why can't they be Australian? Why do you need to have an English name to be Australian?

Quote
Along the way, however, I certainly mellowed. I stopped worrying so much about what other people were thinking and concentrated on what made sense to me. As I came to understand that the relationship between my racial and national identities was far more complex than both I and others had allowed them to be, I became far more comfortable in shades of grey than black or white. The notion that I could be from more than one place begat the possibility that I might support more than one team. The idea that I had a singular identity - black or British - gave way to the reality that I had many and that they were, for the most part, complementary not contradictory.

Loved the article. Especially that.

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Re: Dutch election:Liberals take one-seat lead as far-right party grows in influence
Reply #179 - June 13, 2010, 06:49 PM

Quote from: abdalwali on June 13, 2010, 06:04 PM
I remember once I was asked where I was from and I said I was Indian. That chap said, "That's alright. I thought you were an Abo. At least you're not an Abo. I fucking hate Abos" and I heard the word "Abo" used at least twice in the last month at work.

Well that is fucking bullshit, I do hate that term and how common it is.
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