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 Topic: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity

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  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #90 - September 07, 2010, 09:38 AM

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPNWRQpncRc&feature=sub

    Quote
    BBC's misinformed and unbalanced debate on Stoning in Iran

    I was meant to speak on BBC Sunday Live's debate today on whether it was right to condemn the regime for Sakineh's stoning.

    In the live debate, they managed to interview Suhaib Hassan from the Islamic Sharia Council defending stoning and someone from Tehran saying she faces execution for murdering her husband but somehow there was no time in the debate for me.

    Even the presenter, Susanna Reid, said stonings were rare and that none had taken place since the 2002 moratorium! In fact 17 people have been stoned since the moratorium; also there are court documents provided by her lawyer specifying her stoning sentence for adultery. BBC had all this information. Without providing evidence to the contrary, BBC Sunday Live took as fact the regime's pronouncements on her case. They failed to mention that the man charged with her husband's murder is not being executed and that the trumped up murder charges are an attempt by the regime to silence the public outcry and kill Sakineh. As Sakineh herself has said: "they think they can do anything to women."

    The crux of the debate is this - of course it is right to condemn the regime. It has nothing to do with imposing 'western' values or imperialism. It's a matter of choice really. Do you choose the regime's values or that of Sakineh and her son's who are fighting to keep her alive.

    BBC Sunday Live has clearly made its choice. And the millions worldwide, including in Iran, who won't stop fighting to save her life have made ours.

    We will not stop till we end stoning and save Sakineh.


    http://maryamnamazie.blogspot.com/2010/09/bbc-sunday-live-needs-balanced-debate.html
    Like a compass needle that points north, a man?s accusing finger always finds a woman. Always.

    Khaled Hosseini - A thousand splendid suns.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #91 - September 07, 2010, 09:53 AM
    I think a big deal is being made out of nothing regarding Maryam not getting to speak.  If they really wanted an unbalanced debate then they wouldn't have invited her there at all.  I think it's more likely that they just organised it poorly and ran out of time before they got to her.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #92 - September 07, 2010, 10:00 AM
    Quote from: Paloma on September 07, 2010, 09:38 AM
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sPNWRQpncRc&feature=sub


    Grrr... the moral relativism brigade are so cowardly and infuriating. Either you support or condemn stoning. Make your fucking mind up.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #93 - September 07, 2010, 10:02 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 07, 2010, 10:00 AM
    Grrr... the moral relativism brigade are so cowardly and infuriating. Either you support or condemn stoning. Make your fucking mind up.


    Either you support or condemn capital punishment, make your fucking mind up Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #94 - September 07, 2010, 10:03 AM
    What?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #95 - September 07, 2010, 10:12 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 07, 2010, 10:03 AM
    What?


    You are presenting a false dichotomy.  It's not as simple as to agree/disagree with stoning, people might agree with stoning *only* you commit a specific type of crime.  Just like some people are okay with the death penalty in the US *only* for murderers and/or rapists and/or paedophiles - they can't say "We agree with the death penalty" nor can they say "We disagree with the death penalty", they have the additional option of "We agree with the death penalty, but only if...."

    Personally I am against the death penalty completely, regardless of the crime, and regardless of the execution method.  I think I'd rather be stoned than electrocuted, but that's probably because I would list punishments in a different order than you would.

    Do you see what I am saying?
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #96 - September 07, 2010, 10:17 AM
    I see what you're saying. But why did you feel the need to say it? Its really quite pointless and annoying. Its just broadens the issue into some meaningless unanswerable quicksand debate.

    This:

    "Personally I am against the death penalty completely, regardless of the crime, and regardless of the execution method."

    ... is all you need to say. You don't have to speak for other people.

    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #97 - September 07, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Oh... its you again. Haven't we been through this before once already?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #98 - September 07, 2010, 11:03 AM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 07, 2010, 10:17 AM
    I see what you're saying. But why did you feel the need to say it? Its really quite pointless and annoying.


    The Iranian government have already said they will hang her instead of stoning her, what's relevant is that she is going to be killed for adultery - and that seems to have been a weak conviction to start with.  The method of execution is irrelevant.

    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #99 - September 07, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Quote from: Ishina on September 07, 2010, 10:20 AM
    Oh... its you again. Haven't we been through this before once already?


    Yeah, you did and TheRationalizer lost. Apparently he wants to lose again.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #100 - September 07, 2010, 06:52 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 07, 2010, 06:19 PM
    Yeah, you did and TheRationalizer lost. Apparently he wants to lose again.


    Yes, indeed I lost.  Evidently I failed to explain that once you give the state permission to kill people it is a matter of subjectivity as to which offences deserve such a punishment.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #101 - September 07, 2010, 06:54 PM
    Which crimes, once committed, may cause one to waive their own rights whether that be life (death penalty) or liberty (imprisonment) are only subjective to those who take a relativist ethical standpoint.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #102 - September 07, 2010, 07:06 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 07, 2010, 06:54 PM
    Which crimes, once committed, may cause one to waive their own rights whether that be life (death penalty) or liberty (imprisonment) are only subjective to those who take a relativist ethical standpoint.


    Morality is relative.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #103 - September 07, 2010, 07:08 PM
    Wrong.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #104 - September 07, 2010, 07:09 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 07, 2010, 07:08 PM
    Wrong.


    I'd prefer to read your argument rather than your conclusion.

    If morality wasn't relative then every human around the world would have the same morality, yet this is clearly not the case.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #105 - September 07, 2010, 07:11 PM
    Actually no, I wouldn't rather read your argument at all.  If you wish to believe it is okay to kill people as far a "C" on your checklist but evil if anyone goes as far as "D" or "E" that's up to you.  You continue to believe that if you wish.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #106 - September 07, 2010, 07:15 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 07:09 PM
    I'd prefer to read your argument rather than your conclusion.

    If morality wasn't relative then every human around the world would have the same morality, yet this is clearly not the case.


    That's like saying if there was no God, then people wouldn't be religious.

    People can perceive things subjectively, but that doesn't mean there's a lack of objective truth.

    Quite frankly, I gave you a one word response because I don't see the point in arguing with someone who thinks all morality is relative, because if that's true, then why the hell should I care whether you think the death penalty is wrong in all circumstances or not? These kinds of debates are pointless, because without at least assuming that there is objectivity in the topic being discussed then there is no common reference point for discussion/debate and it just turns into a useless exercise of tautologies, circular logic and "Is Not! Is So!"

    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 07:11 PM
    Actually no, I wouldn't rather read your argument at all.  If you wish to believe it is okay to kill people as far a "C" on your checklist but evil if anyone goes as far as "D" or "E" that's up to you.  You continue to believe that if you wish.


    Excellent, then I assume you'll cease the equally pointless argument with Ishina as well, then?
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #107 - September 07, 2010, 07:35 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 07:06 PM
    Morality is relative.


    Get off the fence.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #108 - September 07, 2010, 07:45 PM
    Whereas I agree that it is possible to weigh up advantages and disadvantages such as "If I kill this one guilty man I will save the life of countless innocent people" I don't think it applies to people who have been incarcerated.  Put a murderer in prison for the rest of their natural life and they can no longer kill people, but what is the benefit to killing him instead?  You save some money?  And when you weigh up the pro/con of saving some money vs killing someone you later discover was innocent after all it's pretty obvious that it's best to avoid the death penalty completely.

    If you decide that it is acceptable for the state to kill people you then have to decide which crimes tip the balance in favour of warranting death.  This is where it gets subjective because different cultures emphasise different values.  In one country adultery might be seen as a terrible crime which should be punished with death because the number of children per household is high + there is lots of poverty and your wife having other men's babies could mean the different between life and death of your own children, whereas in another country adultery is encouraged and people share their sexual partners so it's not an issue at all.

    A) Some people will say you should kill multiple-murderers.
    B) Others will say you should kill even a single person.
    C) Some people will make exceptions for battered partners, others will not.
    D) Some will say you should kill paeodophiles.
    E) Others will say you should kill rapists.
    F) Some will say you should kill a repeated drunk-driving offender who ends up killing somebody.

    How is a person who is willing to go as far as D in any position to call those people immoral for going as far as E or F?  Also, if two people are willing to go only as far as A then why is one able to call the other immoral because they would like them stoned instead of electrocuted?

    You can release people who have been innocently incarcerated for decades, you cannot however raise someone from the dead.

    It's the hypocrisy that annoys me about this subject.  I can't stand to see someone say it is okay to kill people as long as it is for what *they* find abhorrent and then only as long as they are killed in a way that *they* think is okay.

    Now, as for the subject as a whole.  If there is an argument which might make me change my mind about the death penalty then I'll be happy to read it.  What I am not interested in is a "you are wrong", "you lose" school playground style argument.  Frankly if you change my mind on the matter then I'd be grateful that you gave me a new perspective.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #109 - September 07, 2010, 08:15 PM
    No point unless you accept that morality is not totally subjective. No point at all.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #110 - September 07, 2010, 08:22 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 07:45 PM
    It's the hypocrisy that annoys me about this subject.  I can't stand to see someone say it is okay to kill people as long as it is for what *they* find abhorrent and then only as long as they are killed in a way that *they* think is okay.


    Where is the hypocrisy here though?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #111 - September 07, 2010, 08:30 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 07, 2010, 08:15 PM
    No point unless you accept that morality is not totally subjective. No point at all.


    You expect me just to accept that some morality is objective without first presenting me with an argument for it?  Although I personally see certain things as objectively moral such as the old scenario where a runaway train is going to kill either 1 person or 10 people depending on a track-switch which I have the ability to change in time, I am also aware that there are many people who will think that it is immoral for them to make the decision (even though deciding not to act is in itself a decision.)

    I think it is unfair to expect me just to say that there is such a thing as universally objective morality as a starting point.  I would however say that I am not going to stubbornly hold onto a view point just because it was the one I started out with, and that I am willing to entertain it.

    However I think it should be a new thread Smiley
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #112 - September 07, 2010, 08:42 PM
    "What is the thing in itself? What does it do?"
    ~ Marcus Aurelius

    It’s a subjective opinion on objective issues. Some things are objectively bad. A thing might cause objective harm, measurable, noticeable, undeniable harm or suffering. It doesn’t matter if its ‘morally’ wrong. It’s just wrong.

    Saying ‘morality is relative’ doesn’t answer the question. Its just a cop-out. It just puts the conversation into different terms. Its moving the goalposts. You refuse to answer the question, because you know an answer can only be subjective… yet, then you paint other people as irrational for having the balls to state their own terms of morality. My answer is no more or less subjective than yours would be, if you had the decency to actually state it. You’re creating artificial high-ground, just so you can remain superior.

    Have the courage of your conviction. Draw your line and defend it. Nobody can get through life without any discernable moral standard of their own. State your terms, or don’t get involved. Such discussions go nowhere unless you state your terms. If you want to tow the ‘morality is relative’ line, you’re just not gonna get anywhere. You’re just killing the discussion with an all-encompassing wet blanket.
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #113 - September 07, 2010, 08:48 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 08:30 PM
    I think it is unfair to expect me just to say that there is such a thing as universally objective morality as a starting point.  


    It's totally fair, given what we are talking about, which is the criminal justice system. Notice the "justice" part-- there is no justice without objective ethics.

    This is my position-- if there are crimes that may justly cause the criminal to surrender his rights once convicted of the crime, then it is unreasonable to arbitrarily say that the right to liberty is one of them, but the right to life isn't (i.e. it's okay for the state, or anyone else, to deprive someone of the natural right of liberty for X crime by imprisoning them, but it's not okay for the state, or anyone else, to deprive someone of the natural right of life for ANY crime by imposing a death sentence on them).

    In practice I do oppose the death penalty for a number of reasons, but the idea that ever taking someone's life in retribution for certain crimes is always unjust is not among them.

    So if you think all morality is relative, there are no natural, universal rights, no universal concept of justice-- then why would I waste my time arguing with you about it, because you can always fall back on that? You might as well be taking the position the state has no right to punish anyone for anything, morality being relative and all that.

    If you don't accept those presuppositions, fine, but there's no point in talking about it otherwise. It would be like debating the merits of Old Earth vs. Young Earth Creationism with an atheist evolutionist. Our starting points are so diametrically opposed that there is no basis for conversation/debate on the topic.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #114 - September 07, 2010, 09:04 PM
    You assume that I argue with a closed mind, and that is simply not the case.  If you demonstrate to me that such a thing as universal objective morality exists I will accept it, and be grateful for the education.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #115 - September 07, 2010, 09:08 PM
    Is stoning a human being to death objectively wrong?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #116 - September 07, 2010, 09:10 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 09:04 PM
    You assume that I argue with a closed mind, and that is simply not the case.  If you demonstrate to me that such a thing as universal objective morality exists I will accept it, and be grateful for the education.


    No, I don't assume that-- I just don't want to have to have that debate first just to establish the necessary agreed-upon presuppositions to debate the death penalty.

    The first one (relative vs. objective morality) has been debated by stoned high-school kids late at night for generations, and I have the feeling we could spend 12 pages debating/discussing the issue and not get anywhere on it. If you decide that there is objective and universal morality, ethics, justice, rights, etc., then get back to me and we can discuss the death penalty at that point. I have no interest in the relativity vs. objectivity debate. It's been done to death, and while you may not be closed-minded on the subject, I am-- my mind's made up that objective morality/reality exists, simply because I would find it impossible to function, reason, and judge consistently in my daily life on any other presupposition.
    fuck you
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #117 - September 07, 2010, 09:16 PM
    Quote from: Q-Man on September 07, 2010, 09:10 PM
    No, I don't assume that-- I just don't want to have to have that debate first just to establish the necessary agreed-upon presuppositions to debate the death penalty.

    The first one (relative vs. objective morality) has been debated by stoned high-school kids late at night for generations, and I have the feeling we could spend 12 pages debating/discussing the issue and not get anywhere on it. If you decide that there is objective and universal morality, ethics, justice, rights, etc., then get back to me and we can discuss the death penalty at that point. I have no interest in the relativity vs. objectivity debate. It's been done to death, and while you may not be closed-minded on the subject, I am-- my mind's made up that objective morality/reality exists, simply because I would find it impossible to function, reason, and judge consistently in my daily life on any other presupposition.


    I only think there is popular morality, not universal objective morality - I can't think of a single example of what might seem to be universal objective morality for which I cannot also think of an exception.
    I don't come here any more due to unfair moderation.
    http://www.councilofexmuslims.com/index.php?topic=30785
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #118 - September 07, 2010, 09:19 PM
    Is child rape objectively morally wrong?
    Too fucking busy, and vice versa.
  • Re: Iranian woman faces stoning- organize protests against this atrocity
     Reply #119 - September 07, 2010, 09:23 PM
    Quote from: TheRationalizer on September 07, 2010, 09:16 PM
    I only think there is popular morality, not universal objective morality - I can't think of a single example of what might seem to be universal objective morality for which I cannot also think of an exception.


    Fine, then our debate/discussion on the topic is terminated or at least held in abeyance until such time as one of us changes our mind on this issue.
    fuck you
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