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 Topic: French parliament approves ban on face veils

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  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #120 - July 14, 2010, 10:43 PM

    No offense, SL, but I just can't do this with you anymore, okay?

    What's the matter? Can't handle the biological imperative of statism?  whistling2

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #121 - July 14, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Anyway, I'm off. Got a big day fishing tomorrow.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #122 - July 14, 2010, 10:44 PM

    Can't speak for her but already have, and Morris. Evolution and justice are not identical. Fuck Social Darwinism. I'm done man.


    I've read Darwin along with Religion of Nature by Menton.


    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #123 - July 14, 2010, 10:47 PM

    Can't speak for her but already have, and Morris. Evolution and justice are not identical. Fuck Social Darwinism. I'm done man.

    You said that already.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #124 - July 14, 2010, 10:47 PM

    I've read Darwin along with Religion of Nature by Menton.



    Try some Malthus then.

    Religion is ignorance giftwrapped in lyricism.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #125 - July 14, 2010, 10:49 PM

    Anyway, I'm off. Got a big day fishing tomorrow.


    Fishin for what?

    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #126 - July 15, 2010, 01:04 AM

    - This is a consequentialist argument that does not address the justice of the law, and I'm not even convinced your analysis of the consequences is correct.


    There's many a law that's unjust. It's realtive and subjective depending on your POV. My analysis of the consequence are exaclty that.. mine, I'm happy to adjust that with any new relevant information.

    - Any meaningful and lasting change in society has almost always come from the ground up and very rarely from the top down


    so what you're saying is it is possible from ground up and top down

    - The common explanations given are that British culture has become too PC or that the government lacks balls. The former may be true, the latter isn't-


    I disagree. Culture has become too PC, and the govenemnt lacks balls because it is frequently hampered from making decisions, whetere it be by the euopean parliment, human rights acts or fearing a backlash from public opinion.Being unable to deport a known terrorist back to pakistan for fear he will be tortured highlights the complete absurbdity of this. Although the recent case of revoking the british passport of one of the russian spies leads me to belive that the current colaition has started to get it's act back together

    -You can take a passive approach, voting for this or that politician hoping they'll pass some damn law that will make things better



    The govenment works for the people not vice versa, the are empolyed to act for the interests for it's citizens. THis doesn't mean that other organisations take a back seat, they dont, they haven't whether it be EDL, UAF, islam4uk it rises in the public concessness but ulitmately the only realistic change that can occur to make a difference is a change in the law.

    - The goal should be to make religious fundamentalism socially unacceptable


    It is!

    - again, what will the UK do if Muslim women start engaging in civil disobedience over wearing the burqua and provoke arrests and the use of riot police? Do you think that helps or hurts matters?


    That would be interesting. Would it help matters? no. would it hurt matters? probably. IHMO i think if it reached that point it would do spilt the muslims community and isolate them from the wider community. The media would have a field day, Community leaders would appeal for calm, human rights groups would be up in arms. Moderate muslims would be saying this is wrong, but it's the law, fundamental muslims would cry out for jihad. The wider british public would say, get it done.


    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #127 - July 15, 2010, 01:12 AM

    - A win for you or for women's self-expression? Interesting that you fail to mention women choosing to wear the veil of their own free-will, only those coerced / forced. Are we to assume that the number who are not forced are so insignificant as to not be mentioned or considered? Would you mind providing some statistics?


    Actually a win for society. The ones are not forced are irrelavant. The law stands for everyone equally. No one covers their face.

    - Again I ask, is this actually in the interest of the fictional victim you hold up and argue from behind? You speak of "merely forcing her families hand", without reasonably considering how this would actually affect women being placed in that situation. Would being under something resembling house arrest make it easier for them to obtain help? What of the women who might even decide to stay in their houses out of choice, or obedience. How does forcing them into that corner assist in their "integration", exactly?


     I havent said there are fictional victims, i'm not debating on their behalf My reponse was to Q-man reply #75, But i'll play ball. This is not about forcing them into a corner, it about shining a spotlight on the issue. A prison is still prision. Why on earth do it's better for our fictional victim to be a prisioner thats allowed out of her house and still a prisioner as opposed to soley under house arrest?

    -There is no solution, because there isn't an identifiable problem. If someone could identify a problem that women were being forced to wear veils, then helplines akin to the Forced Marriage Unit could be put in place - or we could discuss other measures. Changing the law should be a last resort, not the first.


    You believe  that people think there's a problem with women forced to wear veils. That's not where I'm coming from, it's irrelevant to me if they are forced, coerced, or wear it out of choice. I don't anyone covering their face




    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #128 - July 15, 2010, 01:23 AM

    It is fine to be offended. Whether it is you offended by the covering of Muslim women or Muslims offended by pigs but that does not mean people then have the right to violate someone else's freedom of expression and choice

    I believe this is violation of the rights of people with this ruling. It infringes upon freedom of expression and religion. There are already laws in France and in Europe against harassment, violence, domestic abuse etc. that is more than enough to deal with cases where females are being forced. Your "right" does not supersede theirs.

    I agree with you. But I am not sure that a Muslim woman who is wearing a niqab or burqa would agree with you. She believes that you and I don't have any rights. Banning the face veil is NOT akin to denying her religious freedom. She is free to practice her religion. She is free to wear whatever she wants, just we are asking her, "please don't cover your face". She can cover herself all she wants, but not the face.

    वासुदैव कुटुम्बकम्
    Entire World is One Family
    سارا سنسار ايک پريوار ہے
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #129 - July 15, 2010, 01:38 AM

    There's many a law that's unjust. It's realtive and subjective depending on your POV.


    No, it's objective. And if it's not, really no point debating this, is there, as it would just be pure sophistry, right?

    Quote
    I disagree. Culture has become too PC, and the govenemnt lacks balls because it is frequently hampered from making decisions, whetere it be by the euopean parliment, human rights acts or fearing a backlash from public opinion.Being unable to deport a known terrorist back to pakistan for fear he will be tortured highlights the complete absurbdity of this. Although the recent case of revoking the british passport of one of the russian spies leads me to belive that the current colaition has started to get it's act back together


    Yes, yes-- a stronger state is what's needed, that will solve all our problems.

    Quote
    The govenment works for the people not vice versa, the are empolyed to act for the interests for it's citizens.


     Cheesy Yes, I understand the theory. I got taught this in my civics class back when I was a wee one. You don't actually believe that's how it works out in practice right now, do you?

    If you do, you're just so precious I wanna pinch your chubby little fucking authoritarian, we need a government with an iron-fist fucking cheeks. Angry

    Quote
    THis doesn't mean that other organisations take a back seat, they dont, they haven't whether it be EDL, UAF, islam4uk it rises in the public concessness but ulitmately the only realistic change that can occur to make a difference is a change in the law.


    If that's true that's only because there are too damn many people like you in the UK, without the balls to organize themselves and take direct action, who would rather rely on the state.

    Quote
    It is!


    My fuckin ass-- your goal is to have the fuckin state fix everything for you (which will never happen) because you lack the courage, will, imagination and vision to make real change.

    Another worshiper at the altar of the paternalistic state.

    The Muslims have the balls, vision, organization and unity the secularists don't and if there is a "clash of civilizations" that would be a good damn reason why the secularists haven't decisively smashed them. Go fuckin ahead, pull that lever at the voting booth, write your MP demanding the government ban this or that, and hope for more freedom-- while you're at it, I have a nice plot of land right by the ocean and Wyoming for sale you might be interested in.

    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #130 - July 15, 2010, 01:41 AM

    She is free to wear whatever she wants, just we are asking her, "please don't cover your face". She can cover herself all she wants, but not the face.


    Because you say so, right? The majority says so, so she's gotta do it-- kinda like how the majority in Saudi Arabia say they must cover up this or that.

    The difference between Western "liberal democratic" authoritarians like you and the Islamists may be great, but it is still only a matter of degrees. You both oppose freedom, the only question is to what extent. Fucking hypocrites.

    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #131 - July 15, 2010, 01:48 AM

    Actually a win for society. The ones are not forced are irrelavant. The law stands for everyone equally. No one covers their face.

    Society wins by curtailing freedom of expression for minorities. Nice.

    I havent said there are fictional victims, i'm not debating on their behalf My reponse was to Q-man reply #75, But i'll play ball. This is not about forcing them into a corner, it about shining a spotlight on the issue. A prison is still prision. Why on earth do it's better for our fictional victim to be a prisioner thats allowed out of her house and still a prisioner as opposed to soley under house arrest?

    Banishing people from public spaces illuminates the issue. Makes perfect sense. Not all prisons are equal, you're equating what you consider a personal social prison (the veil) to greatly reduced freedom of movement. A woman who can leave her house will find it easier to get help if she wants to, which means that a law restricting her movements as a veiled woman would be contrary to the interests of the potential victim by making it more difficult for them to get help / support.

    You believe  that people think there's a problem with women forced to wear veils. That's not where I'm coming from, it's irrelevant to me if they are forced, coerced, or wear it out of choice. I don't anyone covering their face

    You're calling for the state to curtail freedom of expression or potentially place vulnerable women in a more difficult situation (since "it's irrelevant ... if they are forced, coerced, or wear it out of choice"), because your personal dislike, fear or intolerance (pick more than one, by all means) negates the interests of those women. Honest, if not despicable.

    Each of us a failed state in stark relief against the backdrop of the perfect worlds we seek.
    Propagandhi - Failed States
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #132 - July 15, 2010, 02:19 AM

    @Q-Man,

    I largely agree with you. I'm quite the minarchist myself and I oppose this ban on the Burqa. But I think what you're advocating can be a double-edge sword.

    For the sake of the argument let me present to you this hypothetical scenario. What if there was a grass-root well-organized non-governmental public campaign to shun and exclude any one who wears Hijab. So well-organized and effective that it reaches the level where Hijabis are denied service by supermarkets, restaurants, car repair shops, and taxis? Would it not be necessary for the state to intervene?

    Or say a similar campaign was organized in Alabama and Mississippi but instead of Hijabis it's against gays. What if it reached the level that gays can't rent an apartment or a hotel room?
    I'm speaking about campaigns that have nothing to do with the government. That are all organized and executed by individuals.

    Or let's say an anti-Halal slaughtering campaign that's so well-organized that landlords start evicting Halal restaurants and food suppliers who supply Halal restaurants are boycotted.

    In these scenarios would it not be necessary for the state to intervene and say "hold on a minute we're not gonna let you do this" ?

    Do you think the civil rights movement would've been nearly as effective as it have been if the Federal government didn't step in and force the Southern states to let Blacks vote freely with no restrictions? or to threaten employers with the risk of getting sued for racial discrimination if the didn't hire Blacks?
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #133 - July 15, 2010, 02:45 AM

    Good question(s). Remind me to tackle them when I come back. Big issue not prepared to go into right now.

    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #134 - July 15, 2010, 02:47 AM

    If that's true that's only because there are too damn many people like you in the UK, without the balls to organize themselves and take direct action, who would rather rely on the state


    Yeah i also understand the theory, You don't actually believe that's how it works out in practice right now, do you? - copy pasta works a treat for this one.

    - The goal should be to make religious fundamentalism socially unacceptable

    It is!

    My fuckin ass-- your goal is to have the fuckin state fix everything for you.........etc etc..soapbox diatribe...tangent


    what was your point? that relgious fundamentalism is socially acceptable? You lost me when you talked about your ass.

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #135 - July 15, 2010, 02:52 AM



    Banishing people from public spaces illuminates the issue. Makes perfect sense. Not all prisons are equal, you're equating what you consider a personal social prison (the veil) to greatly reduced freedom of movement. A woman who can leave her house will find it easier to get help if she wants to, which means that a law restricting her movements as a veiled woman would be contrary to the interests of the potential victim by making it more difficult for them to get help / support.


     Im not sure why a law banning veils is going to make a differnce to those needing help. If you're wearing a veil and you need help before this law is passed, go seek help. If you need help after this law is passed. also seek help. If you're living in a situation where you think yes actually i'm going to be a virtual prisoner in your own home, then that you have issues beyond the veil and would that come as a complete surprise? If it does come as a complete surprise that you have no idea if you want to get out phone for help.

    You're calling for the state to curtail freedom of expression or potentially place vulnerable women in a more difficult situation (since "it's irrelevant ... if they are forced, coerced, or wear it out of choice"), because your personal dislike, fear or intolerance (pick more than one, by all means) negates the interests of those women. Honest, if not despicable.



    I'll Pick Personal Dislike and intolerance, cheers.

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #136 - July 15, 2010, 02:54 AM

    Good question(s). Remind me to tackle them when I come back. Big issue not prepared to go into right now.

    Sure thing. In the mean time, I hope other libertarians discuss it with me. I'm looking for a friendly calm debate as to what the role of government should be and whether a bill of rights is necessary, sufficient, both, or neither.



    DON'T CARE

    Your avatar is legendary. I just looked at it for about 2 mins before I snapped out of it. BTW, I also like Shay.   Wink
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #137 - July 15, 2010, 02:58 AM

    lol, when i found it i was the same, must of looped about 10 times before i realised! boobs can stop time itself

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #138 - July 15, 2010, 02:59 AM

    I agree with you. But I am not sure that a Muslim woman who is wearing a niqab or burqa would agree with you. She believes that you and I don't have any rights. Banning the face veil is NOT akin to denying her religious freedom. She is free to practice her religion. She is free to wear whatever she wants, just we are asking her, "please don't cover your face". She can cover herself all she wants, but not the face.


    Have you met everyone who wears burqas or niqabs? So how can you say that is what they think?

    No she is not free to wear what she wants because you have then told her not to wear her veil! She believes it is part of her religious or cultural beliefs, so once again it is denying her the freedom.

    Why should she take it off? Because it is offense to you? Because the majority has chosen to? Does that now give a mandate to the majority getting whatever they want even if it infringes on the minority?
    I am now offended by females in bikinis, I find it insulting to females. I guess I should ban it.
    I also think porn and jeans are now oppressive and demeaning ... making them little more than sexual objects. Ban it! ....  Roll Eyes

    See the slippery slope?

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #139 - July 15, 2010, 03:00 AM

    Yeah i also understand the theory, You don't actually believe that's how it works out in practice right now, do you? - copy pasta works a treat for this one.

    what was your point? that relgious fundamentalism is socially acceptable? You lost me when you talked about your ass.


    Whatever. Go pray to the government and hope it will fix everything. In the meantime, take part in no meaningful social activism, then bitch on the internet about how fucked up things are and how we need more laws to fix it.

    Get out-organized by those you oppose who actually do see the value of grass-roots organization. Get defeated because you relied on a self-interested entity beholden to powerful interest groups and wealthy institutions rather than organizing and taking up the fight for yourself. Fuckin great. Your attitude is that of the cowardly, the apathetic and the dull-- strangely enough I don't actually believe you are any of those things, at least not the first and definitely not the last, so maybe there's one more belief system you need to break your obedience to.

    Sure thing. In the mean time, I hope other libertarians discuss it with me. I'm looking for a friendly calm debate as to what the role of government should be


    Fuck you, authoritarian sand nigga!

    Quote
    and whether a bill of rights is necessary, sufficient, both, or neither.


    This was actually a huge debate right after the American Revolution. Remind me when I get back and I'll try to dig up some shit on it. In the meantime, Wiki might have some info on that.

    Quote
    Your avatar is legendary. I just looked at it for about 2 mins before I snapped out of it.


    Agreed. May be the best avatar ever.

    fuck you
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #140 - July 15, 2010, 03:25 AM

    Sure thing. In the mean time, I hope other libertarians discuss it with me. I'm looking for a friendly calm debate as to what the role of government should be and whether a bill of rights is necessary, sufficient, both, or neither.


    Hmm, I don't know whether I classify as a libertarian but I'd be happy to.

    I support a controlled limited government that maximizes individual freedoms and minimizes individual harm. I am well aware that Governments are needed as it has a role to play in any stable, safe society.

    I live in UK where I find our constitution to put it nicely, embarrassing. It is a joke and does not protect anything as it is a uncodified document which can be overturned with a simple majority in both houses. I envy Americans for their constitution.

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #141 - July 15, 2010, 03:53 AM

    I agree with you Meredith. But I believe sometimes a "paternalistic" state is needed. Otherwise, we shouldn't hold elections. We might as well just establish a national polling service and employ 100,000 pollsters to ask the people how they want to run the country.

    This is a very big debate that can not be simply reduced to authoritarian vs. libertarian. 
    One example is this question: should the government ban smoking in restaurants?
    Some say yes it should. I imagine some of the members who are arguing for banning the Burqa would be in this group.
    Some, including myself say no. The government has no right dictating how private restaurants run the business. Which is very good logic IMO but then we're faced with a bigger question which is: should you the government dictate that private businesses don't discriminate against gays? to which I say yes !
    This shows the contradictory nature of my views.

    What I'm trying to say inarticulately is that we all should admit that we have contradictory views. No one is 100% libertarian and no one is 100% authoritarian. There is no red line. It's just degrees on the auth.-lib. spectrum.

    This goes to Q-Man too BTW.  Wink
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #142 - July 15, 2010, 04:07 AM

    I agree with you, smoking ban should not have been introduced.
    Those non smokers should have took their money elsewhere and if there was a market. Businesses would have responded setting up establishments that cater to their needs specifically.
    The Government had no business getting involved in it.

    Similarly I take the view that if it is their business, their rules and they have the right to refuse service to anyone they wish.
    It is then up to the public to boycott the business to force their hand or eventually drive it to shut down but should the state interfere? No. However the law disagrees with me on that as well.

    But do I have contradictory views? Of course. I just haven't ran across them yet  Wink

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #143 - July 15, 2010, 04:23 AM

    Yeah let the market decide. I agree.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #144 - July 15, 2010, 04:27 AM

    Yeah let the market decide. I agree.

     
    Smiley

    I also support the legalisation of drugs, prostitution, guns etc.  Afro

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #145 - July 15, 2010, 04:33 AM

    totally agree with you

    little iffy on the gun bit
    but that's just cuz I don't like them
    heavy, noisy and smelly
    prefer bows and blades myself

    Sex booze and rock&roll
    you know
    the finer things in life
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #146 - July 15, 2010, 04:41 AM

    totally agree with you

    little iffy on the gun bit
    but that's just cuz I don't like them
    heavy, noisy and smelly
    prefer bows and blades myself


    I don't trust the Government and I do not like the fact they are taking away the ability for citizens to defend themselves making us rely on the state even more for protection.

    I love everything about guns, I find it sad I cannot go shooting range.
    I would make an awesome American  yes

    Blind faith is an ironic gift to return to the Creator of human intelligence

  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #147 - July 15, 2010, 04:53 AM

    too many people can't be trusted with a set of safety scissors
    I hesitate to trust them with guns
    regardless of their motivations

    Sex booze and rock&roll
    you know
    the finer things in life
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #148 - July 15, 2010, 05:16 AM

    Smiley

    I also support the legalisation of drugs, prostitution, guns etc.  Afro

    I agree with that. I even support the legalization of incestuous relationships between consenting adults.

    But I do support anti-discrimination legislation that forces private businesses not to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender identity when employing people. That's one of the few exceptions I make to the rule.
  • Re: French parliament approves ban on face veils
     Reply #149 - July 15, 2010, 08:09 AM

    Whatever. Go pray to the government and hope it will fix everything. In the meantime, take part in no meaningful social activism, then bitch on the internet about how fucked up things are and how we need more laws to fix it.

    Get out-organized by those you oppose who actually do see the value of grass-roots organization.....


    Honestly i don't know what to make of this it feels to me you've been watching braveheart, mr smith goes to washington and erin brochovich on continuous loop on your dvd player. I don't pray, least of all to a government, and i'm not delusional to think government nor social activism can fix anything.

    Over the last 2 years i've had my fair share of epiphanies as to how the world works, what can be done realistically and what seems nigh high impossible. I may well be apathetic, ( and i say this without a hint of irony) i don't give a shit.

    If you ask me to define anything i will slap you with my pimp hand and make you cry like a biatch.

    Nick Naylor: "I didn't have to. I proved that you're wrong, and if you're wrong I'm right."~ Thank you for Smoking

    Perspective
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